ŷ������

Thank you Beth for reminding me!

Go nuts! What did you think of the world? The mystery? Would you like an imago? Do you think this was a space opera?

I'm loving the descriptions of City. So glamorous, with a hint of scary threat underneath.

Also am developing a fondness for the Mahit, Three Seagrass, Twelve Azalea trio, especially in the latter half of the book.

I'm was all set to fall in love with this early on, but it's not quite the deliriously good read I'd hoped for.

There have been several occasions that a scene has gone by, Mahit has interpreted a character or their interaction a certain way, and I've gone "wha?" One example, in Mahit's view Nineteen Adze is a master interrogator who plays "good cop/bad cop" like a master. I didn't get that from her at all. Another example is Twelve Azalea saying Three Seagrass has few friends because she tends to use people in interest of her ambitions. Really?

And I am not getting a strong sense of threat from anything that's going on--it isn't something so simple as "a limited third person narrator is likely to live 'til the end," more like I'm consistently being kept at arm's length from Mahit's emotions. As a result, the story's interesting but I don't care all that much.

Agree 100% with everything Beth said. I was curious to see what the reactions would be here since so many in the first impressions thread seemed positive. For me this read never felt like much more than ‘meh.�� Which stinks because the world building was great.

For me the highlight was Nineteen Adze. I thought she was a fantastic character, and sort of wish the book had been written from her POV.

I also had the sense that things were happening to Mahit more than she was driving any of the action in any significant way which frustrated me.

This book really didn’t do it for me. It’s been less than a week since I finished it and I’m already struggling to remember the point of it all. It started very well and was very intriguing. However, it all fell flat when the imago seemed to burn out near the start of the book. I thought the introduction of the imago was one of the stronger hooks of the story. Especially with the way society seems to be heading, the opportunity to explore the implications of shared memories, split-personalities, recorded memories and brain implants was wasted. It was if the author didn’t quite have the skill to execute it properly, so chose to gloss over it and overly focus on world building around linguistics and other elements. Some of these were okay, but on the whole the world building felt contrived, and the characters, with a tedious naming convention that just became muddled and one dimensional, came across like teenagers rather than high ranking political officials. I know this book is part of a series, and the setup for greater use of elements like the imago technology in subsequent novels was certainly there, but I think I would have enjoyed it more if she’d left some of the finer world building details to a later book and developed the plot elements more in this one.

To illustrate my point: in the case of the imago technology, this was introduced as a plot device, but this could have been left out entirely and it would have made little or no difference to the actual events in the book. However, the author was continually reinforcing the idea of the imago as a major element of the story’s plot. It wasn’t. Without it Mahit’s journey through the book would have been exactly the same. Similarly, with or without the imago, the relationships Yskander had previously developed with other characters in the book had little bearing on Mahit’s continuing relationships with them beyond the normal political ramifications of Mahit being Yskander’s successor. Yskander also used the imago technology as a bargaining chip with the Emperor. I think this was supposed to be a big reveal, but the imago theme was so underdeveloped by this point that it didn’t really work as intended. The impact would have been the same if the imago hadn’t really featured in the novel. All Yskander needed to do was inform the emperor that they had this great technology that can preserve memories and strike a deal. All of this left me feeling like the sci fi elements were little more than technological padding. And then the book closed with a setup for book two and the prospect of an alien invasion, which was an attempt at a cliffhanger that left me unsure what the book was supposed to be about. So, all in all, a disappointing read. Whilst future novels will no doubt expand on some of these themes, this first installment didn’t develop any of them quite enough for me to be interested in picking up a sequel.

Gray wrote: "However, it all fell flat when the imago seemed to burn out near the start of the book. I thought the introduction of the imago was one of the stronger hooks of the story. "

I forgot about that- I agree with this too. The Imago was genius, the character in the Imago was lots of fun. It could have provided some insight to the larger political plot while also not giving it away since the last update was five years ago.

Felt largely like a wasted opportunity. I kept reading hoping it would kick back in and then it didn't until the end IIRC.

I really enjoyed this. I agree with others about feeling the loss of Yskander and the imago (as readers), but this felt like it was meant to mirror the loneliness Mahit felt without him there. At least that's how I interpreted things.

I was a big fan of Mahit. I liked that even though she's totally isolated and such a foreigner, she's able to make connections with people who then want to help her. And she does this by being honest and genuine (for the most part), instead of manipulative. I had a great time with the antics of Mahit and Three Seagrass and Twelve Azalea as they were running around the city, in over their heads but still pretty resourceful.

There were a lot of plot threads that we never got answers to (who planted the bomb?!? What's the deal with the Sunlit? Is the City beneficent or AI run amok?) but I was willing to cut it some slack since I was having a good time, and it felt about right for what Mahit would be able to accomplish. Her immediate storyline wraps up, and it felt unrealistic that we/she would find out all the details of the inner workings of Teixcalaan in, what, like 2 weeks all told? But I'm definitely hoping some of those threads get picked up in the next book.

I enjoyed the book quite a bit.

I don't agree with the imago complaint. Consider how it was set up: in Lsel, there are imago-lines containing a dozen generations. Mahit was never going to just "forget" about not having access to her imago when it's such a normal, important part of performing in a career, even without the occasional physical reminders. True, the plot mostly could have progressed without it, but I think it still serves a purpose in terms of character development.

That said, there were some things that confused me about the imagos. It seems unlikely that something that was specifically said to be ill-advised �� the reinstallation of an imago �� worked so flawlessly in Mahit’s case, with Yksandr popping in where he could be useful but otherwise more or less leaving Mahit alone. This is totally different from her experience with the first imago. Do you feel it was adequately explained by the sabotage of the first imago and the fact that the second imago has a more mature Yksandr?

I agree that overall the imago does serve a character development purpose, I guess I was just hoping for more than it actually delivered in this fist instalment, to the point where I couldn't help asking myself, what's the point?

"Do you feel it was adequately explained by the sabotage of the first imago and the fact that the second imago has a more mature Yksandr?"

What is interesting about your question, which I hadn’t really thought of, is that not only was the second imago a more mature Yskander, it was a more mature imago. It had been in Yskander’s head for at least fifteen years, and probably a lot longer. The sabotaged one inside Mahit’s head had been implanted only three months prior to her arrival on Teix. The author does suggest a settling in period as the host learns to work with the imago. However, in light of your observation regarding the restraint of the older Yskander’s imago, it may not have been adequately explained, but this could suggest that the rather than just being a data-bank of memories, the imago implant does have an independent intellectual capacity, with the ability to learn of its own accord. If this is the case, the imago technology could effectively be considered a third entity. That could have some pretty big implications.

The second, more developed imago raises a question. I'd think there would be a failsafe written into them that would cause the recording to go into a pause or stasis mode if the housing consciousness dies. At some point Mahit is concerned that Yksandr's implant would have been recording months of brain decay...

Sarah wrote: " For me this read never felt like much more than ‘meh.�� Which stinks because the world building was great.."

The same here: the ideas are interesting, the story seems to flow smoothly but it hasn't enthralled me like other books sometimes do.

Ch. 15-17: I really like this part, where Mahit is in the initial stages (view spoiler)[of becoming a sort of tripartite dual-imago + host (hide spoiler)] and it highlights how the loss of the imago close to the beginning of the book was a lost opportunity. I know there's no point in speculating how a book could have been vs. what it is, but these things are interesting to ponder:

(view spoiler)[If imago-aged-26 Yskander had been fully functional, we could have had a few years' worth of his experiences for Mahit to fall back on, but since she still wouldn't be fully/properly integrated with the imago, there could be friction and tension between them. For example, there could be loyalties, or sexual chemistry/tension on Mahit's part that 26Y isn't on board with, or vice versa.

Also, in re the physical modules themselves, when Mahit finds that middle-aged Yskandr is dead and his imago module can be retrieved from Justice with the help of Three Seagrass and Twelve Azalea, there might be a real struggle within Mahit as to whether she should find a way to uninstall 26Y, who is objectively of less use to her, and install the older one. (hide spoiler)]

Anyhow, I'm liking it a lot better now that the imago concept is actually a crucial part of the story and am sad that it hasn't been anything but a plot convenience up until now.

I viewed this book as a foundation to something that could be great, if the next book was to have a similar pace that would not be optimal for my tastes. i found the universe and technology to be interesting.

Beth, no need for spoiler tags! This is the discuss everything thread!

I agree with most folks so far...a lot of great ideas and solid prose, but the plot and story fell apart for me.

Also, this is another of those books where I think that my real life is coloring my ability to enjoy make believe, but for a world so thought out in its technology and religion and literature, the way negotiations, investigations, and diplomacy were handled were shocking. You don't send your ambassador loose for ice cream after two separate terrorist attacks. You don't lock her out of her sovereign territory! You issue new territory and guards or whatever technological/diplomatic solution provides most protection! Generally there's a recall on diplomats once the treaty has been breached! So, I'm sure that once again this is a me thing, primarily.

And I do see lots of amazing things! The world is so rich, and I like Three Seagrass a ton. Her friendhsip with Twelve Azalea and his flights of fancy were so fun. I was excited about Yksandr, too, I wish "he'd" been around more!

I kept wanting the whole loss of the imago to turn out to be a benefit to Mahit in the end and to sort of cast doubt on the whole idea. I personally found the imago idea horrifying.

I can barely live with myself in my own head much less one other or a whole line of other voices, blended or not.

I'm with you, Twelve Deadoak. Anything that might compromise my mind's integrity--whether an imago, or senility, a head injury, or what--is scary!

One of the cooler things when it came to worldbuilding was seeing how Lsel and Teixcalaan saw imagos differently. Lsel sees them as synthesis and continuity, and T sees them as a kind of immortality.

Hank wrote: "I can barely live with myself in my own head much less one other or a whole line of other voices, blended or not."

Yes, three's a crowd. :)

The Imago would create a real crisis of identity.

I think that's a neat question:

What do you think your life would be like if you had an ancestor/predecessor's memories and is that something you would find awesome or awful?

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "

Yes, three's a crowd. :)

The Imago would create a real crisis of id..."

This is why I was so bummed to see the Imago malfunction early in the novel. I loved the pressures the Imago placed on "me" and "you," and I really enjoyed the tension it created for Mahit. The rest of the novel, though? The murder mystery and political intrigue parts? I found those far less successful.

One of the things I noticed is that, although the Imago is referred to as memories of a predecessor, it thinks and feels for itself, or at least Ysksander does in the beginning before he goes AWOL. He acts like a fully functioning mind capable of emotions and thoughts independent of Mahit's. That's a problem. Memories can be accessed for information. Another mind can rebel, not unlike what Ysksander does at the morgue.

No wonder Mahit has a therapist!

I do like the idea of an Imago, though. It solves the acute problem of knowledge loss in a highly technical society with too few people to carry on traditions, science, technology, etc. Advancement would slow to a crawl. Things would be lost to the past. The Imago solves at least some of this problem. Maybe. Interesting idea in its own right. Instead of blood doping the Imago is a way of brain doping.

The idea that the imago machine develops maturity of its own, distinct from its host, doesn't make sense to me. The "sapience" of the device strikes me as completely dependent on the imago's consciousness. At any rate, I don't think there would be a huge difference in a five-year-old imago (as in 26 year old Yksandr) versus a fifteen-year-old imago (as in middle aged Yksandr) would be decisive, if even notable.

If we're going to open up a wider discussion of imago tech and its effect on individuals and society, we would do well to remember that Mahit's experience is highly atypical. The author describes the imago as offering a sort of "instinctual second opinion", which means that the dialogue and general funkiness between imago-Yksandr and Mahit is only typical of the settling-in period.

My impression of the imago wasn't that it was "born" when implanted, but that once implanted, it was an ongoing recording of the brain state of its host, including their memories and experience. Middle-aged Yskandr would have fifteen years of cultural/political/linguistic Teixcalaan immersion that Y26 wouldn't.

I finished the book this morning, and thought the ending was pretty strong. Although I do agree with others who have said that imagos were disappointingly unimportant to the emperor's "plan B."

It had a lot of good points, but the actual experience of reading it was "not great" most of the time, rather dry and lacking in immediacy.

Yeah, I did it! �� but at this point I'm really re-thinking my intend to not dnf any of the group reads this year. This was the 6th group read book where I was just glad that I was over with.

My impression is more or less in accord with message 4 by Gray.

The hype unfortunately didn't reach me. The sequel is safe from me ;)

Aw, I'm sorry Gabi!

I try to attempt each book the group reads unless I have zero interest in it, which is rare but happens. The attempt is all that I count as my duty. If I read a book beyond 50%, I mark it as read because it was more finished than not! Those are my rules for keeping up with the group. Suffering should not be mandatory!

Gabi - I’ve been finding myself not reading the winners this year in a fit of pique b/c my pick always is the runner up! 😆
But then I can’t help myself and read the discussion anyway.
You could try my approach haha

I love your approach, Rachel!

One more imago comment:

Why didn’t the second imago installation overwrite the younger Yksander echoes? My guess: the imago machines, having sufficient time to adjust to the new individual, internalizes. In a case where the installation went normal and had ample time to internalize, even if the imago machine was completely removed you would still have access to the intuitions/knowledge of the imago-line (an instinctual second opinion, as it was once described). So imago machines, after the adjustment phase, are purely to record the newest person for the future.

Does this sound reasonable, or is it a reach?

Ryan wrote: "One more imago comment:

Why didn’t the second imago installation overwrite the younger Yksander echoes? My guess: the imago machines, having sufficient time to adjust to the new individual, intern..."

This was exactly the way I interpreted it. There are a few comments about the younger Yskander's voice being "in tatters" or being kind of echo-like, which I thought was due to exactly what you describe: it's the part of his memories (and personality?) that was integrated with Mahit before the first imago malfunctioned.

Ryan wrote: "One more imago comment:

Why didn’t the second imago installation overwrite the younger Yksander echoes? ."

My guess that at each point when imago is copied for storage a consistent image is created. the following memories do not overwrite the image but add to it. This is how save points on PC work...

A few more miscellaneous questions.

I’m a little confused by the call to the Info Ministry to get out of Five Portico’s area. Are there no after-hours taxis in the city? It seems inconceivable in a city this size, in which there would seem to be a clear need for it. This was not even mentioned �� though it could perhaps have been explained away by not wanting to use the trackable cloudhooks to hail a cab.

There are multiple references to pre-space Teixcalaan, with the implication that at that time there was an emperor. Are we to assume Teixcalaan do not originally derive from Earth? Or could this actually be the planet Earth? They seem pretty human. Or is this a sort of alternate history thing?

If the Sunlit are the police force, are the mist the equivalent of FBI agents? What are the relationship between them, if we know anything?

People who enjoyed it, tell me about what spoke to you!

I have a couple of enjoyments.... I liked the not too distant future of The City where the police and the transportation are controlled by AI but still influenced by people tweaking or owning the algorithm. Seems more our world than strictly sci-fi.

I also like the friendships. Three Seagrass refusing to give up on Mahit and the love of many for Six Direction.

So I’m less than halfway through but have enjoyed it from the beginning. Mahit had three strikes against her before she arrived, and then had to deal with even more challenges shortly after. The political intrigue makes for interesting “bedfellows,�� the characters are complex, there are multiple subplots, the descriptions of the city give me a good mental image, and the humor is subtle. The excerpts from various communiques and manuals at the beginning of each chapter are a little confusing and I’m having a hard time integrating them into the story. The naming conventions, which someone mentioned up topic, are clever. As someone who teaches English to speakers of other languages, I also enjoy Mahit’s occasional struggles with the language and her insights on it. The literati references are fun, as well. All of this combined is what makes this book appealing, and I will finish it.

I listened to this book and I have to say I didn't have the dislike for the audio book that some seem to have. I admit to some gaps in my understanding of the book and in my attention span. Something that happens with most audiobooks. I'm glad that I have the book so that I can fill in the gaps. I like character driven stories and I like political intrigue and I thought the world building was cool. The narrator wasn't the best I've ever experienced but she wasn't the worst either. I thought the characters were interesting and fully formed. I liked them. The exploration of self identification and the imago technology was interesting and the characters were smart and mostly self aware. I found the second half of the book far more engaging than the first and for me it redeemed itself enough for me to want to read the sequel. Not the best scifi that I've ever read, but I liked it more than say Semiosis which for me felt more YA.

Ryan wrote: "I’m a little confused by the call to the Info Ministry to get out of Five Portico’s area. Are there no after-hours taxis in the city? It seems inconceivable in ..."

I got the impression that normal modes of transportation were ruled out and/or not available because of the protests/demonstrations/riots. But this could have been more explicit, for sure.

Overall, I felt like the narrative mirrors Mahit's experience in the city really well. The story is from her point of view (except for the interludes), so it felt appropriate that we wouldn't have all the information. I mean, it's a little unsatisfying as a reader that we never find out what was going on with the bomb, or with the City AI, but again, that's not necessarily something that Mahit would have access to, so it didn't bother me too much (although I hope it's addressed in later books...).

I like the idea of someone who's always been enamored with Teixcalaan culture finally getting to really be immersed in the empire, and the ways that it does and doesn't live up to the dreams of it she had as a teenager. I mean, in some respects, she gets to see the worst parts of Teixcalaan (politically motivated murders, being used as a pawn, etc.), but she also makes some close friends who help her survive.

Ariana—interesting observation about Mahit being in love with the culture and then experiencing it. She didn’t even get to go through stage one of culture shock—honeymoon—before hitting stage two—distress.

Re the Teixcalaani names: What’s yours? I’ll call myself Sixteen Sapphire. 😁

I got a quarter through and couldn’t finish. Really wasn’t my cup of tea.

Dayna wrote: "Re the Teixcalaani names: What’s yours? I’ll call myself Sixteen Sapphire. 😁"

I fudged a generator and chose Four Oculus!

Kate, don't blame you! Better luck next month

I liked the Imago idea but since Mohit/Yksandr's malfunctioned we didn't get much of the experience.

There were cool things and names. But, somehow the city, the people and the situation (was she an Ambassador or a servant/hostage/enemy and really the "ambassador privileges" were a sham?) didn't seem real to me.

When I first started I had feeling of Ursula K. LeGuin’s Hainish Cycle (diplomat in alien culture) and The Goblin Emperor (newcomer to the palace intrigue). As time went on though it reminded more and more of the Foreigner series by C.J. Cherryh �� a solo diplomat in an alien culture, working to balance everyone’s needs. Lots of interior dialog as the protagonist struggles to navigate mysterious political situations in a foreign language, befriending some of the “aliens�� along the way. Posing questions to him/herself and following threads of influence.

As for the use of italics�� as in the Foreigner series, the text would benefit from a change in the use of italics �� specifically, a decrease in their number. We can follow along with the main character’s thoughts even if not so many words are emphasized. In fact, fewer italics would make the thoughts less intrusive.

So many of you are describing this in terms of other books....
I get the feeling that it doesn't have any merit on its own; especially because when you do say something specific it's a negative.
I'm definitely not interested in reading it, based on what I can glean from comments here, even though the description is slightly appealing.

Does anyone want to clarify the appeal, or point to a clarifying review?

Cheryl, if you watch video reviews, try Rachel's. She loved the book, and her reviews are great:

I enjoyed this book. I loved the writing, world building, and the main characters - both as themselves and because of their interactions. I also appreciate that this works well as a standalone book despite being the start of an incomplete series (the concerns about getting into a A Song of Ice and Fire situation don't apply here).

I do wish that Mahit had been a bit less passive (especially early on) despite the challenges of being dropped into such a perilous situation with essentially no training or backup. The heavy messaging on the difficulty of integrating into a foreign culture like the one so central to Teixcalaan also got a bit tiresome at points. Neither of these kept me from appreciating this as a very impressive first novel from this author. I'm looking forward to more from her.

Twenty-seven Penitente

I don't understand why this epic, intriguing, original, suspenseful, thrilling sci fi fantasy novel doesn't have more positive reviews in this thread.

Is Arkady Martine’s A Memory Called Empire space opera?--a vast galactic empire on the verge of war, a byzantine bureaucracy, a plotty murder mystery, melodramatic life and death struggles counterpoised by displays of unconditional sangfroid that heighten rather than restrain the extravagance of theatricality, profound philosophical and psychological questions of human identity and technological augmentation, memory--knowledge, expertise--and personality, comprehensive world-building, explains why it's on my space-opera shelf!

I think there is a lot of conversation about the reasons it didn't get positive reviews. Tell us about the parts you loved! What opened your mind or swept you away? What did you think of the writing style or characters or plot! Let us experience it with you :)

Don wrote: "I don't understand why this epic, intriguing, original, suspenseful, thrilling sci fi fantasy novel doesn't have more positive reviews in this thread. "

Maybe we are just shallow or jaded readers :) For me it actually lacked thrills compared with other books. Writing is good, characters are developed (at least the main ones) but something is missing

The world building is fantastic. Descriptions of Teixcalaan Empire and Lsel Station remind me of historical and fictional imperial and and colonial—except for the moment Lsel remains independent—societies, including diplomatic relationships and military conflicts that develop and erode between the two. The World City is reminiscent of William Gibson’s Sprawl Trilogy in the planet’s unrestricted urban development, Byzantium in it’s political intrigue and vast bureaucracy, the Aztecs in its language and allusions to ancient blood sacrifices, ancient Rome in its citizen/barbarian dichotomy, and contemporary America in its pervasive yet partial cultural assimilation. It reminds me of the League All Worlds and later the Ekumen of Ursula K. LeGuin’s Hainish Cycle in comparisons and contrasts between different evolutionary branches of humanity.

I’ve read 65% of the book and enjoy the mystery, the different ways various characters approach solving it, and the interactions between characters, complex and nuanced by diverse backgrounds. The characters�� practice of emotional restraint for cultural reasons allows readers to form independent speculations about the origins and outcomes of developing circumstances and conspiracies, adding to both a sense of mystery and opportunities for humor. Discussions about architecture and literature, music and poetry, technologies and traditions, reveal a lot about different cultures and cultural differences. For example, the way Lsel Station created imago technology to provide continuity of knowledge and expertise within a relatively small group, Twelve Azalea’s conviction that “Neurological enhancements are cheating,�� and the Teixcalaan Emperor Six Direction’s belief that the memory technology holds the key to personal immortality are telling distinctions.

Don, great points. The attributes you named are big reasons I enjoyed the book as well.

I would quibble with you calling it a space opera, however. There is a vast galactic empire, yes, but we don't see all that much of it except for Teixcalaan and Lsel. There are no space battles or even space travel, which consider genre-defining.

That doesn't make it any less of a good book, though, and sequels certainly have the potential to be real space operas.

Huh, lots of dislike for this one. I loved this book and put it on my favorites shelf. It reminded me a lot of both Ann Leckie's and CJ Cherryh's books, which are favorites for me. I like books that focus a lot on the cultures of civilizations so I really enjoyed all the looks into the empire and their obsession with poetry and history and the little bits of station culture we got with the imagos and the politicking weird and the precarious balance between the empire and the unknown threat. I also thought the whole imago concept was fascinating with the difference between the station where they're an essential part of life and the empire where they're viewed as abhorrent but also valuable at the same time.

I wonder if reading the audiobook helped? I thought the narrator did a great job with it. I really felt like she brought the characters to life.

It's easy to post first when you know you don't like something even before you're done! I am very much enjoying hearing from people who did enjoy this book.

I did love the imago bit and the differences between the cultures. I really wish I'd felt this divide more!