Deborah’s answer to “why are people saying Outlander is a rape book?� > Likes and Comments
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Short, to the point,...
Okay, I'm sorry -- that was a little flippant. I'll be happy to post relevant page numbers and passages if anyone wants to see them.
I don't think there's any quarreling with the fact that the first time Claire sympathizes with Jamie, long before they fall in love, it's because he tells her the story of being flogged when his sister is raped. And then -- okay, I don't want to give away what happens to Jamie near the end of the book, but (view spoiler). So rape is certainly a recurring theme. There are also several passages in which Claire says no and he says yes. The one where she's still hurting from the last time he forced her and she asks him to stop because she's in pain, and -- I believe the quote is, "Gentle he could be, refused he would not." It's in my review somewhere.
That's where I had to stop reading. Marital rape is not romance. Forcing yourself on a woman who's hurting from the last time you forced yourself on her is not dashingly manly.
It may not be a "bad" book in the sense of being badly written, but that's not what you asked. You asked why people are seeing it as "a rape book." The rapes in this novel make some readers extremely uncomfortable.
If you check the update comments I posted while I was reading, you'll see a lot of compliments to Gabaldon's writing. I liked plenty of things about the book. Then about halfway through, it took an extremely disturbing turn, and I wasn't happy reading it any more. I don't like leaving a book unfinished, but I found myself dreading picking it up. So I stopped.
You know you're not alone in liking the book in spite of the scenes in question, just as I'm not alone in feeling affronted by them.
Sounds to me that YOU BOTH are looking to get a name for yourself. Even if you think you have all the answers, you are wrong.
THIS IS NOT A RAPE BOOK.
Those who have not experienced a real relationship can't and won't understand the scope of the story.
"Looking to get a name for myself"? You mean by posting an answer to a question posted by a friend of mine? And using my full name? Not that I'm blaming anyone who doesn't, after what Kathleen Hale decided was fair play -- but that's another story.
Anyway. He asked why people would say that. I answered as best I could.
I'm sorry my marriage of over two decades doesn't count as a "real" relationship to you. I'll pass that news along to my husband. Then I'll leave him and find some guy who promises never to accept my plea for him to stop, no matter how much it hurts from last time. And then I'll know...it's real.
It's all good, honey. For the record, that's not how I would describe this book. I find this story complicated and problematic, exactly because Gabaldon is a skilled writer. Also for the record, I have a lot of smart funny female friends who don't mind the beating scene at all, and like you, I'm trying to figure out how people I have a lot in common with can see the same writing so differently.
I eventually threw down the book in disgust. The male beating/rape was gratuitous and I had the distinct feeling that the author was enjoying it too much. I cannot understand the following these books have generated
Geez you sure know how to take a wonderful series of books and turn them into your own sense of importance. These are GREAT stories of a time and place where women were treated this way. Claire doesn't allow it. Lighten up.
1. Please translate "turn them into your own sense of importance." I Google-translated that stuff and almost broke my laptop. Thank you.
2. While you're at it, translate "Claire doesn't allow it." What do you mean? She doesn't "allow" herself to be raped? That's kind of the definition of rape -- your saying "no" isn't taken into account by your assailant.
3. If you're talking about being beaten and raped, women are still "treated this way." If you're talking about societal attitudes in the West toward rape, marital rape, and domestic violence -- it's true, those used to be more socially acceptable than they are now. As in, way more guys used to do them and get away with it. In terms of how women felt about it, however -- I'll be happy to quote you some actual historical letters from an eighteenth-century woman who lived in northern England. She was a widow who married a hot, significantly younger guy. Then he started abusing alcohol and her, at about the same time. Her letters are full of anger and bitterness at how she's being treated, and some of those letters beg her male relatives to help her get away from the man she was in love with until he started treating her like that. So no, I'm not being "presentist," as some people have accused me of. Women have never liked being "treated this way."
4. Yes, I'm officially uptight. I don't enjoy reading a story about a woman who's beaten and raped by a guy she then stays with because she's just so darned in love with him. Sorry.
5. "Lighten up"? Yeah, you're right. I should stop thinking when I start reading. And I should definitely stop going to other people's book reviews and telling them how wrong they are to disagree with me. Oh, that's right -- I don't do that. The guy who posted this question does, though. Not just about this book. He requested my friendship here, and then not only defriended but blocked me when I started reading Twilight and posted some status updates he didn't approve of. Updates like, "Gee, Bella -- why are you so snarky to people who are just trying to be friends with you when you move to their town and start going to their high school?" Horrible stuff like that. Maybe you could pass along the "lighten up" message to him, since I assume that if he blocked me he can't see my posts anymore than I can see his. Thank you.
The amount of rape in the book made me uncomfortable too, but I think that's part of the point of the book. To be honest with you, I thought Claire generally had it easier in this book than most women in her time did.
I understand that not everyone agrees with this, but I really do not think that Jamie raped Claire. It doesn't make sense that Claire would have such strong opinions about some things (like the beating) but be perfectly content with being raped.
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Oct 19, 2014 04:26PM
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Okay, I'm sorry -- that was a little flippant. I'll be happy to post relevant page numbers and passages if anyone wants to see them.I don't think there's any quarreling with the fact that the first time Claire sympathizes with Jamie, long before they fall in love, it's because he tells her the story of being flogged when his sister is raped. And then -- okay, I don't want to give away what happens to Jamie near the end of the book, but (view spoiler). So rape is certainly a recurring theme. There are also several passages in which Claire says no and he says yes. The one where she's still hurting from the last time he forced her and she asks him to stop because she's in pain, and -- I believe the quote is, "Gentle he could be, refused he would not." It's in my review somewhere.
That's where I had to stop reading. Marital rape is not romance. Forcing yourself on a woman who's hurting from the last time you forced yourself on her is not dashingly manly.
It may not be a "bad" book in the sense of being badly written, but that's not what you asked. You asked why people are seeing it as "a rape book." The rapes in this novel make some readers extremely uncomfortable.If you check the update comments I posted while I was reading, you'll see a lot of compliments to Gabaldon's writing. I liked plenty of things about the book. Then about halfway through, it took an extremely disturbing turn, and I wasn't happy reading it any more. I don't like leaving a book unfinished, but I found myself dreading picking it up. So I stopped.
You know you're not alone in liking the book in spite of the scenes in question, just as I'm not alone in feeling affronted by them.
Sounds to me that YOU BOTH are looking to get a name for yourself. Even if you think you have all the answers, you are wrong.THIS IS NOT A RAPE BOOK.
Those who have not experienced a real relationship can't and won't understand the scope of the story.
"Looking to get a name for myself"? You mean by posting an answer to a question posted by a friend of mine? And using my full name? Not that I'm blaming anyone who doesn't, after what Kathleen Hale decided was fair play -- but that's another story.Anyway. He asked why people would say that. I answered as best I could.
I'm sorry my marriage of over two decades doesn't count as a "real" relationship to you. I'll pass that news along to my husband. Then I'll leave him and find some guy who promises never to accept my plea for him to stop, no matter how much it hurts from last time. And then I'll know...it's real.
It's all good, honey. For the record, that's not how I would describe this book. I find this story complicated and problematic, exactly because Gabaldon is a skilled writer. Also for the record, I have a lot of smart funny female friends who don't mind the beating scene at all, and like you, I'm trying to figure out how people I have a lot in common with can see the same writing so differently.
I eventually threw down the book in disgust. The male beating/rape was gratuitous and I had the distinct feeling that the author was enjoying it too much. I cannot understand the following these books have generated
Geez you sure know how to take a wonderful series of books and turn them into your own sense of importance. These are GREAT stories of a time and place where women were treated this way. Claire doesn't allow it. Lighten up.
1. Please translate "turn them into your own sense of importance." I Google-translated that stuff and almost broke my laptop. Thank you.2. While you're at it, translate "Claire doesn't allow it." What do you mean? She doesn't "allow" herself to be raped? That's kind of the definition of rape -- your saying "no" isn't taken into account by your assailant.
3. If you're talking about being beaten and raped, women are still "treated this way." If you're talking about societal attitudes in the West toward rape, marital rape, and domestic violence -- it's true, those used to be more socially acceptable than they are now. As in, way more guys used to do them and get away with it. In terms of how women felt about it, however -- I'll be happy to quote you some actual historical letters from an eighteenth-century woman who lived in northern England. She was a widow who married a hot, significantly younger guy. Then he started abusing alcohol and her, at about the same time. Her letters are full of anger and bitterness at how she's being treated, and some of those letters beg her male relatives to help her get away from the man she was in love with until he started treating her like that. So no, I'm not being "presentist," as some people have accused me of. Women have never liked being "treated this way."
4. Yes, I'm officially uptight. I don't enjoy reading a story about a woman who's beaten and raped by a guy she then stays with because she's just so darned in love with him. Sorry.
5. "Lighten up"? Yeah, you're right. I should stop thinking when I start reading. And I should definitely stop going to other people's book reviews and telling them how wrong they are to disagree with me. Oh, that's right -- I don't do that. The guy who posted this question does, though. Not just about this book. He requested my friendship here, and then not only defriended but blocked me when I started reading Twilight and posted some status updates he didn't approve of. Updates like, "Gee, Bella -- why are you so snarky to people who are just trying to be friends with you when you move to their town and start going to their high school?" Horrible stuff like that. Maybe you could pass along the "lighten up" message to him, since I assume that if he blocked me he can't see my posts anymore than I can see his. Thank you.
The amount of rape in the book made me uncomfortable too, but I think that's part of the point of the book. To be honest with you, I thought Claire generally had it easier in this book than most women in her time did.I understand that not everyone agrees with this, but I really do not think that Jamie raped Claire. It doesn't make sense that Claire would have such strong opinions about some things (like the beating) but be perfectly content with being raped.
