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Manny's Reviews > The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
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I love the feeling of connectedness you get when you've wondered about something for a long time, and finally discover the answer. I had a great example of that yesterday. As I said in my review of The Lord of the Rings, for me Tolkien is all about language. I must have read The Hobbit when I was about 8, and even at that age I was fascinated by his made-up names. They sort of made sense, but not quite.
Then, when I was 21, I learned Swedish, and suddenly there were many things in Middle Earth that came into focus! Of course, the Wargs get their name from the Swedish varg, wolf. And "Beorn" is like ²úÂáö°ù²Ô, bear.
But I never figured out why Bilbo was teasing the spiders in Mirkwood by calling them "attercop". Now I know. It's an archaic English word related to the modern Norwegian word for spider, edderkopp. The Swedish word, spindel, comes from a different root. I've thought about that for over 40 years. See how much fun it is to acquire a new language?
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If you want to know what I think of Peter Jackson's three Hobbit movies, look here, here and here.
Then, when I was 21, I learned Swedish, and suddenly there were many things in Middle Earth that came into focus! Of course, the Wargs get their name from the Swedish varg, wolf. And "Beorn" is like ²úÂáö°ù²Ô, bear.
But I never figured out why Bilbo was teasing the spiders in Mirkwood by calling them "attercop". Now I know. It's an archaic English word related to the modern Norwegian word for spider, edderkopp. The Swedish word, spindel, comes from a different root. I've thought about that for over 40 years. See how much fun it is to acquire a new language?
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If you want to know what I think of Peter Jackson's three Hobbit movies, look here, here and here.
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The Hobbit, or There and Back Again.
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Reading Progress
Started Reading
January 1, 1966
–
Finished Reading
December 6, 2008
– Shelved
April 10, 2022
–
Started Reading
(Other Paperback Edition)
April 10, 2022
– Shelved
(Other Paperback Edition)
April 22, 2022
– Shelved as:
children
(Other Paperback Edition)
April 22, 2022
– Shelved as:
spanish-and-italian
(Other Paperback Edition)
April 22, 2022
–
Finished Reading
(Other Paperback Edition)
Comments Showing 1-50 of 55 (55 new)
message 1:
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Robert
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rated it 3 stars
May 10, 2009 08:48AM
I'm fascinated by philology but not equiped to pursue it. :-(
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Okay, so what about Tomnoddy? Of course, that's insulting to anyone. =) I was amazed when I started learning Sindarin that almost all the names for things are just literal translations of their English names (or vice-versa, I mean). So like Aglarond means glittering cave, Legolas means Greenleaf, etc. I thought that was cool.
Also, I think all the words in the speech of the Eorlingas are actual Old English words, so we know a lot of those words now just from reading the LotR trilogy a gazillion times.
I remember being shocked when realizing a lot of the Fremen words from Dune are actually Arabic. It's nice to accidentally learn something from the real world too when you get involved in fiction. =)
Tatiana wrote: "I remember being shocked when realizing a lot of the Fremen words from Dune are actually Arabic."Tatiana: if you haven't already done so, you might want to take a look at my review of Dune, where I expand on this theme.
lol -- that question (origin of 'attercop') randomly popped into my head 2 days ago at which point I got distracted by daily life - thank you for answering it for me!I love his personal history with languages, as well as what he does with them in his writing
More fun language trivia - in the earlier editions, Tolkien referred to the High Wood Elves as "gnomes" because of the derivation from the Greek "gnosis," but changed because obviously what comes to mind is garish garden decorations. 
Totally agree with you... A new language learnt will take us to a new horizon & open many doors, which weren't visible(accessible?) earlier...Thanks for sharing ur feeling.....
Manny did you first read Tolkien's books in English?
Neil wrote: "Manny did you first read Tolkien's books in English?"Absolutely. In fact I have never read them in any other language.
Manny wrote: "Neil wrote: "Manny did you first read Tolkien's books in English?"Absolutely. In fact I have never read them in any other language."
What hooked me was the epic use of archaic language he uses throughout his works, I wonder if they would translate well, maybe they would with another Germanic language, I only speak English, though I've often wondered about it
I must look at a French translation! Now I have to know too :)
Manny wrote: "I must look at a French translation! Now I have to know too :)"Yay, post your findings:)
I find it no fun at all to acquire a new language; I just find it impossible. I think it would be immense fun to have acquired a new language, though. E.g. English...
you're right about that Robert. I have a Japanese teacher who randomly starts speaking in japanese and im just like ...the hell?
Bails_Williams wrote: "you're right about that Robert. I have a Japanese teacher who randomly starts speaking in japanese and im just like ...the hell?"
Is your Japanese teacher Japanese?
sorry Robert, she isn't. also isnt that racist but still, i dont really care
I've started reading El Hobbit (in Spanish) and it's giving me a whole new feeling for the story. It's all new to me again, in some way. Of course it's much slower going for me, since my Spanish is only so-so (I've been studying it on duolingo for about 7 months now) and part of it may have to do with just how much more you notice when you read slower. But part of it is the language itself, which is making the story fresh for me again. It's pretty awesome! After El Hobbit, I plan to read the whole Señor de los Anillos trilogy.
Hey, I'm learning Spanish too! Though I decided to read ±Ê±ð°ù²õé±è´Ç±ô¾±²õ instead, which is also working pretty well. I seriously considered El Hobbit... actually got as far as taking it down from the shelf at the bookstore and leafing through it before putting it back. An impressive near-coincidence!
Manny wrote: "An impressive near-coincidence!"And on such things entire mumbo-jombo belief systems are built...
As Lea Thompson says in Howard the Duck, everything happens for a purpose!
What?!Look, if Howard hadn't been fetched from the Duck Planet by Dr Jenning's laser spectroscope, no one would have been there to save Earth from the Dark Overlord. I know you'll say it's just a story, but things like that happen all the time... it's really more a parable. How much proof do you need?
Manny wrote: "How much proof do you need?"You're persuasive, of course, but I think I need to talk to the Duck.
I thought everything happened for a porpoise. I've given up trying to assimilate.
Cecily, you must have been born from a really hard-boiled egg.
what is this about eggs and ducks?
Bails_Williams wrote: "what is this about eggs and ducks?"Bails, you have to see . It's a masterpiece of bad taste. Or if you're in a hurry, save time by just checking out ...
Bails_Williams wrote: "what is this about eggs and ducks?"Which came first?
Cecily wrote: "Bails_Williams wrote: "what is this about eggs and ducks?"Which came first?"
Eggs.
ok thanks manny. Will look it up on YouTube today.
I think that is my favourite book of all time! ;)
Yeah, I think I read somewhere that Tolkien based a lot of his languages on Norwegian. But you have a lot of patience to wait 40 years for an answer! I pretty much only thought of the question as I was reading your review.
He clearly uses Norwegian/Swedish/Old Norse/Old English for the Westron tongue and the language of the Rohirrim. The language of the Sindarin is equally clearly based on Welsh. Quenya is supposed to be based on Finnish, but that's less obvious to me (perhaps because I know very little Finnish). Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Khuzdul, the language of the Dwarves, I see it's vaguely based on Hebrew.
Tolkien said his interest in the stories was mainly linguistic.The Sackville-Bagginses were the Bagginses' nemeses. Tolkien had a colleague, Sackville-West. I wonder whether Tolkien hated him, or whether naming the bad guys after him was good-natured.
Manny wrote: "He clearly uses Norwegian/Swedish/Old Norse/Old English for the Westron tongue and the language of the Rohirrim. The language of the Sindarin is equally clearly based on Welsh. Quenya is supposed t..."On Quenya and Finnish see:
/review/show...
Review and comments.
The more I get to know about the linguistic aspects, the more impressed I become. Today's discovery: he even invented a basic sign language (!) for the Dwarves. I do hope that some Deaf Tolkien-geek has taken the trouble to elaborate this. I would love to be able to sign "By Durin's beard!" or "There is a balrog in the West Hall".
Manny wrote: "The more I get to know about the linguistic aspects, the more impressed I become. Today's discovery: he even invented a basic sign language (!) for the Dwarves. I do hope that some Deaf Tolkien-g..."
"You shall not pass!"
On thinking about it, there must be a full two-handed version and a reduced one-handed version suitable for a Dwarf holding a hammer or an axe.
Manny wrote: "On thinking about it, there must be a full two-handed version and a reduced one-handed version suitable for a Dwarf holding a hammer or an axe."You'd definitely want a single sign for "Balrog!" Having to spell it out would potentially cost lives.
Yup, I think that's clear. And it would need to be a one-handed sign too.
Manny wrote: "On thinking about it, there must be a full two-handed version and a reduced one-handed version suitable for a Dwarf holding a hammer or an axe."According to ,
"It is hindered if both hands are not free for use....But it is flexible enough that if a gesture normally requires two hands, a one-handed approximation is usually clear enough in context to be read correctly."
I've actually thought about making up something like this (a sign language so subtle no one knows you're using it) before, so it's pretty cool that Tolkien already has! Do you know if he actually made up the entire language, or just the concept of it?
With anyone else, I'd be sure they'd just made up the concept and left it at that. With Tolkien, I'd say 50/50 that there's a series of unpublished A4 notebooks with hand diagrams, syntax wittily combining elements from Old Irish Sign Language and borrowings from Langue de Signes Française, and everything painstakingly adapted for short, stocky signers with beards and axes.
Manny wrote: "With anyone else, I'd be sure they'd just made up the concept and left it at that. With Tolkien, I'd say 50/50 that there's a series of unpublished A4 notebooks with hand diagrams, syntax wittily c..."Probably scribbled on the back of a bunch of Oxford exam scripts...
Thank you for that little etymology lesson! I was also curious about "Attercop"
Knowledge is power ;)
Hey, thank you erin! Always a pleasure to meet another etymology fan :)
Great review! Love the book and language! :)
There are so many language Easter eggs in Tolkien! The other day, I just noticed for the first time that in the passage from "The Field of Cormallen" when the hobbits are being publicly honoured ("Praise them with great praise!"), the praise is being uttered in Westron, Sindarin and Quenya.
'Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise!Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar'ni Pheriannath!
Praise them with great praise, Frodo and Samwise!
Daur a Berhael, Conin en Annûn! Eglerio!
Praise them!
Eglerio!
A laita te, laita te! Andave laituvalmet!
Praise them!
Cormacolindor, a laita tárienna!
Praise them! The Ring-bearers, praise them with great praise!'
And after further hunting around, I've found , where you can hear the Quenya part read out loud. It does indeed sound a whole lot like Finnish.
this is really interesting, I wonder if anyone has compiled a list of similar references
