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Yeah, but didn't he make Susan somewhat bitter and regretful that she hadn't the conventional woman's lot?

Do Calvin's feelings exclude Asimov from being "quite a feminist"? I know some women who feel bitter and regretful over having chosen their careers over the "conventional woman's lot" as well as some who are perfectly content with their choices in both directions. Could it be that Asimov was simply exploring a character to the full?

Brad wrote: "Do Calvin's feelings exclude Asimov from being "quite a feminist"? I know some women who feel bitter and regretful over having chosen their careers over the "conventional woman's lot" as well as so..Could it be that Asimov was simply exploring a character to the full? ."

Isaac, bless him, didn't develop his characters much, but it could be. :-)

I read Calvin's bitterness as being more due to the fact that she didn't have the top job at U.S. Robots, despite being three times as smart as any of the guys. I was so annoyed with the way she was portrayed in the Will Smith movie... she's always been one of my heroes!

I didn't even notice she was in that awful movie!

Thinking back though, and this is the memory of a little girl who wanted to be a scientist, Calvin seemed an anti-feminist stereotype. She was embittered and hardened, never justly rewarded for her work, disliked by her colleagues, had no family life and no sex life. If I remember correctly, Isaac wrote some humiliating scenes for her. Wasn't there a robot who pretended to be a secret admirer? Something like that? (Did I dream that up, Manny?)

Overall the message, intentional or not, seemed to be: she's an unnatural woman and pays the price for it, despite her brilliance. Be warned!

Oh, I thought the message was: girls, this is the price you'll pay if you want a serious career. It's not fair, but better to know so that you can make a responsible choice.

I don't remember the robotic admirer. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Satisfaction Guaranteed?

You remember these old stories far better than I do, Manny. So I've gone and looked through my real world shelves to find a carefully preserved copy of I Robot. The story is Liar!. The robot is Herbie, RB-34, a telepath and something of a mesmerist who's interested in human psychology. He convinces Calvin that another scientist is in love with her, a colleague that he's going to get a longed-for promotion etc, etc. The object of her affections announces his engagement to a longstanding girlfriend, and Calvin's beyond fury when she realises that all the time, Herbie has been telling them all what they wanted to hear and she deliberately drives him 'insane'. Poor Herbie goes catatonic.

Long she stared while the triumph faded and the helpless frustration returned- and of all her turbulent thoughts only one infinitely bitter word passed her lips.

"Liar!"

I tend towards Manny's reading of the story, Hazel, but I certainly see your point, and you make an interesting case.

Well, I haven't read any of this stuff recently, Brad. Perhaps a fresh perspective is called for? But, there's always a risk when I reread childhood favourites. I loved Isaac's stories. Might be better to leave the memories alone. :-)

I've been finding that recently myself. I reread Dracula, which I adored as a boy, and I absolutely loathed it. Sometimes it's better to just let the nostalgia lie.

I just had a similar experience with Barchester Towers. Loved it as a child. Was very disappointed this time. It's somewhat dispiriting. :-(

Hazel wrote: "Calvin seemed an anti-feminist stereotype. She was embittered and hardened, never justly rewarded for her work, disliked by her colleagues, had no family life and no sex life. If I remember correctly, Isaac wrote some humiliating scenes for her"

Yeah, that was certainly the impression I got - I, Robot was one of the first sf books I ever read, along with Foundation and Dune, at 10 or 11? or so. She just seemed, well, rather scary. But I can see Manny's points too.

In fact, my conclusion : she's an unnatural woman and pays the price for it, despite her brilliance. Be warned!
and Manny's: girls, this is the price you'll pay if you want a serious career. It's not fair, but better to know so that you can make a responsible choice. are pretty close.

And thinking about it, I had ambivalent feelings toward Calvin. I both admired her and pitied her. Maybe Brad was right, and Isaac was 'exploring' her character more fully.

Hazel wrote: "I had ambivalent feelings toward Calvin. I both admired her and pitied her.

That was my reaction, too.

Maybe Brad was right, and Isaac was 'exploring' her character more fully."

I think it can be hard to tell the difference between that kind of character - which certainly exists - and a stereotype. I remember feeling embarrassed for her almost with the Liar! story (as well as kinda scared).

I'm just astonished you guys can remember any of this book at all. I've read it, and probably in the last 7-8 years, but it's just a haze and some memories of giggling at the name R. Daneel Olivaw. *still funny*

Ceridwen wrote: "I'm just astonished you guys can remember any of this book at all"

I only remember it because it was seriously like the fourth or fifth skiffy book I ever read (at my stepsister's house, my PBS-loving parents thought sf was 'trash') (I got them to watch Lathe of Heaven because it was, well, on PBS. Still, they weren't that impressed). And it was a DETECTIVE STORY/ROBOT MASHUP, which at the time was New and Daring.

Oh, Manny's the elephant here! But, I loved these. Asimov was a god, and I read every short story of his I could get my hands on. I didn't start reading his novels, Foundation etc, until my mid teens, but I devoured the short stories while still pretty young.

Hazel wrote: "Oh, Manny's the elephant here! But, I loved these. Asimov was a god, and I read every short story of his I could get my hands on"

Do you remember the ones with the AWFUL puns, i.e. 'Atlantis sank beneath the waves?' Lord I think he could toss off one of those in about five minutes.

Yes, def New and Daring, and given to me by my secret local source of Not Bad Silver Age SF - I will not name names now or ever, lest people pester him into oblivion. He has GOT the GOODS though, mostly.

Which Lathe of Heaven movie? There have been a couple. The old one with Bruce Davidson as the shrink? That one's good, I remember, but it's been a while.

Hazel wrote: "Oh, Manny's the elephant here! But, I loved these. Asimov was a god, and I read every short story of his I could get my hands on. I didn't start reading his novels, Foundation etc, until my mid tee..."

I loved these too - just can't remember them. Read the whole series, even the craptastic ones that cross-over into the Foundation series and get stupid & frustrating.

Ceridwen wrote: "There have been a couple. The old one with Bruce Davidson as the shrink? That one's good, I remember, but it's been a while. "

The olllllllllllllld one, yeah (the new A&E one was HORRIBLE, I actually taped it). I think it's on DVD!

Ceridwen wrote: "Read the whole series, even the craptastic ones that cross-over into the Foundation series and get stupid & frustrating. "

....man, it is just never a good sign when sff authors think 'Hey I'll tie up series A AND series B in a GIANT overarching thematic book!' It just so rarely works.

Yes, A&E can suck it. That was a travesty.

Oh, and he tried to work in series C with the freaking Empire series too, non?

Aargh, would love to rejoin this discussion but have to take care of a deadline! Can I just point people who haven't already seen it to my Susan Calvin fan-fic?

Ceridwen wrote: "Yes, def New and Daring, and given to me by my secret local source of Not Bad Silver Age SF - I will not name names now or ever, lest people pester him into oblivion. He has GOT the GOODS though, m..."

My source was Mrs Clarke, who was old when I was ten. She was remarkably patient with me and would let this little neighbour gal visit and climb up to the cupboard in her spare bedroom where she kept stacks and stacks of paperbacks, pulp novels and magazines, scifi, crime, gothics. But mostly scifi. Dog-eared paperbacks with lurid covers, short story collections, Ace Doubleday books!. Sigh... Those were the days. She'd let me take away an armful at a time, just giving them a cursory once-over to make sure there wasn't anything too racy.

Wonderful woman. She opened the door for me.

Manny wrote: "Aargh, would love to rejoin this discussion but have to take care of a deadline! Can I just point people who haven't already seen it to my Susan Calvin fan-fic?"

I love you, Manny.

Ceridwen wrote: "Oh, and he tried to work in series C with the freaking Empire series too, non?"

ACK, really? I didn't get that far, thankfully.

Hazel wrote: "the cupboard in her spare bedroom where she kept stacks and stacks of paperbacks, pulp novels and magazines, scifi, crime, gothics. But mostly scifi. Dog-eared paperbacks with lurid covers, short story collections, Ace Doubleday books!"

That's adorable. A magic cupboard! I got most of my sff from the Santa Fe Public Library, which was about a decade behind the field, so I wound up reading a lot of New Wave stuff in the eighties. And those 'Golden Age Of' anthologies, too.

"I'm afraid I had an unfair advantage over you," she replied. "Would you believe it, I used to be a teenage girl myself." "

Oh, that's classic.

Moira wrote: "Ceridwen wrote: "Oh, and he tried to work in series C with the freaking Empire series too, non?"

ACK, really? I didn't get that far, thankfully."

I'm pretty sure. I wandered off mid-way through the second of that series, but for some reason I stuck it out to the very end of Foundation/Robot, no idea why. Read all of the Rama books too, I think expecting that they would turn out not to be boring and stupid in a big ta-da! Nope.

Ceridwen wrote: "for some reason I stuck it out to the very end of Foundation/Robot, no idea why"

....I can't talk, I think I actually have a copy of Chapterhouse:Dune floating around here somewhere.

Manny wrote: "Aargh, would love to rejoin this discussion but have to take care of a deadline! Can I just point people who haven't already seen it to my Susan Calvin fan-fic?"

I remember this review, Manny. I think you were channelling Isaac!

Moira, there's a collection by Silverberg, (not one of my favourite writers) where he talks about some of the old stories and how they impressed him as a reader and then as a writer. 'Science Fiction 101'? Something like that.

Moira wrote: "Ceridwen wrote: "for some reason I stuck it out to the very end of Foundation/Robot, no idea why"

....I can't talk, I think I actually have a copy of Chapterhouse:Dune floating around here somewhere."

Oh, don't get me started about Dune. I've read all of those too, THREE TIMES, except for GOD EMPEROR which I HATED. I have an IRRATIONAL LOVE for Herbert which is, as I said, irrational. THE HONORED MATRES CAN KILL YOU WITH THEIR FEET. AND THEY ARE FOND OF LEOPARD PRINT DRESSES. OMG HOW 80s MUSIC VIDEO IS THAT??!!

I loved the Bene Gesserit! Many years later I described them to my analyst. What was the name of the trial to test whether Paul was human? You know, he's induced to put his hand into a box and can't move for fear of death, while he endures some terrible pain? Don't remember the details now, but it provided great fodder for discussion on the couch.

GOM JABBAR.

That's it!

Hazel wrote: "Moira, there's a collection by Silverberg, (not one of my favourite writers) where he talks about some of the old stories and how they impressed him as a reader and then as a writer. 'Science Fiction 101'? Something like that."

Oh yeah, I think those are the Hall of Fame books - the numbering was I, II, IIA, something weird like that. I got those at Dalton's as a kid and they were my introduction to a lot of sf.

Ceridwen wrote: "except for GOD EMPEROR which I HATE"

AWW MAN BUT GOD EMPEROR IS KIND OF COOL AND HAS SIONA AND HWI IN IT

Ceridwen wrote: "GOM JABBAR."

I MUST NOT FEAR. FEAR IS THE MIND-KILLER ....I actually used to use that as a kind of mantra at the dentist's. //geek

[off-topic] Looking back on this thread, I see my friend -once upon a time -Ceridwen became "deleted user". Anyone know how she is IRL?

I'd like to add that I re-read "I, robot" few years ago, and it confirmed to me my childood impressions: Susan Calvin was portrayed as someone to be admired ut also ridiculized, a non-woman. Old uncle Isaac was great company and an enlightened and progressive man, but no more feminist than most progressive men of his times: that is, barely.