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Foomy's Reviews > The Fires of Heaven
The Fires of Heaven (The Wheel of Time, #5)
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What I like to call Volume 1 in the "Women Hating Men" trilogy. At almost no point in these three books did women interacting with men consist of anything beyond: insulting men, assaulting men, sniffing at men, or thinking about how stupid men are compared to all the omniscient women. I almost didn't finish this book because of all the negative energy towards men.
Lessons I learned from this trilogy.
1) It is always a man's fault. Always.
2) Women are always smarter than men.
3) It is okay to break your promises as long as they were to a man.
4) Hitting a man is a perfectly acceptable response to anything he says.
5) If a man proves you wrong, it is okay to lie about it and also hit him.
6) A man raping a woman is a horrible crime.
7) A woman raping a man is funny.
8) A man of his word is easy to manipulate.
The best part of this whole trilogy was the end of book 6 (Lord of Chaos) because we finally saw some turnabout in the men vs. women thing.
Seriously, what kind of women did Robert Jordan have in his life? He was utterly incapable of creating a strong female character without also making her a hateful, spiteful harpy. They are either spineless doormats or unbearable battleaxes. The only reason this one has a second star in its rating is because he actually moves the plot along in interesting ways.
Lessons I learned from this trilogy.
1) It is always a man's fault. Always.
2) Women are always smarter than men.
3) It is okay to break your promises as long as they were to a man.
4) Hitting a man is a perfectly acceptable response to anything he says.
5) If a man proves you wrong, it is okay to lie about it and also hit him.
6) A man raping a woman is a horrible crime.
7) A woman raping a man is funny.
8) A man of his word is easy to manipulate.
The best part of this whole trilogy was the end of book 6 (Lord of Chaos) because we finally saw some turnabout in the men vs. women thing.
Seriously, what kind of women did Robert Jordan have in his life? He was utterly incapable of creating a strong female character without also making her a hateful, spiteful harpy. They are either spineless doormats or unbearable battleaxes. The only reason this one has a second star in its rating is because he actually moves the plot along in interesting ways.
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Finished Reading
February 14, 2009
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I totally agree with this description of Min. I too feel that she is the only compassionate, vulnerable, strong, loving character in the book. Maybe because she has no superpowers? She has to contend with real life?
This review and the following posts don't provide an accurate critique of the novel. With the exception of the handful of sentences describing Min, the focus seems to be on one major plot line and the characters Nynaeve: the "battleaxe", and Moghedien: probably the most "spineless" character in the story, though that is exactly what Jordan intended her to be with her name matching that of a spider from the story. Not mentioned are the characters (among others) Moraine - hardly a woman that can be described as "totally insane" - who has been a key guiding influence for Rand and is worthy of being called one of the more honorable and noble characters in the series, and Faile - who I also feel is a compassionate and "strong, loving" character...though I'm sure it will be argued that she represents a "battleaxe" type as well despite the fact that the geographical area she comes from (and this can be referring to Avienda as well) requires both men and women to be harder than those of other lands. This series was started 20 years ago and attitudes between men and women have altered. I've known many individuals who have personalities very similar to those found in The WOT - men and women - it's a big part of what makes reading it so enjoyable. I can match character after character up with people in my life. I hardly think that's misogynistic - but that word has a tendency to show up where it's hardly appropriate.
If you are reading these books back-to-back then it gets repetitive hearing the same descriptions you were reading recently. Take a break - there are other great novels out there - then come back to it. The series is incredibly deep and complex, refreshing a memory after 2 or 3 years was understandable, though not necessary as memorable as it is.
Todd wrote: "It's NOT a trilogy."No but he is describing this and the next two as a trilogy as in the super girls do nothing but lie and call men stupid, while generally getting themselves into mess after mess and need someone, generally a man, to get them out of it. Then they act as if they didn't need help and start calling them names for doing so. Which is typically a very real female trait, whether they'd admit to such or not. Which is also a very real trait.
James wrote: "Todd wrote: "It's NOT a trilogy."No but he is describing this and the next two as a trilogy as in the super girls do nothing but lie and call men stupid, while generally getting themselves into m..."
All I can say is... LOL! :)
All I can say is... LOL! :)Ageed!!!
U nailed it !! I ended up skipping a lot of scenes related to those battleaxes (especially Egwene & Co ) for what started as a funny if weird peculiarity turned up to be a very deep entrenched tradition in 99.99% of the women we encounter.. I understand that after the breaking ( which i personnaly think is caused by the stubborness of the women in Lews Therin's era and not by his attack on the Bore for the works done by both men & women always gave better results ) caused by male Aie Sedaie, behavior toward any male would change but for most of the women in all the world to end up with the same attitude is -somehow- overboard
Completely agree. The sexist stereotyping and interactions make this book unbearable. I nearly did not finish it because Egwene, Nynaeve, and Rand were so one dimensional and predictable. Felt like a huge step back in the series.
I like the review and I think Nynaeve was the worst written female character period. You say something negative to her, she reacts negatively. Say something positive, she reacts negatively. Even something on neutral ground that is targeted at no one, she takes it negatively...I was just like wtf the whole time. And she is the most stubborn character on the planet but the second you disagree with her, she calls you or in this case that person stubborn. I hated all her chapters. She was the worst towards men.
I like the review and I think Nynaeve was the worst written female character period. You say something negative to her, she reacts negatively. Say something positive, she reacts negatively. Even something on neutral ground that is targeted at no one, she takes it negatively...I was just like wtf the whole time. And she is the most stubborn character on the planet but the second you disagree with her, she calls you or in this case that person stubborn. I hated all her chapters. She was the worst towards men.
Whilst I agree Nynaeve is very sexist up to this book (I haven't read further yet) I constantly remind myself of why she may be like that. For starters, it's not just men - she has an attitude problem with everyone in my opinion. Second, there is a reason why she is this way: a young Wisdom who constantly had to prove herself in a small village with lots of older strong women making up the Women's Circle. I understand why she is the way she is but by this book I feel it is long overdue that she matures and evolves as a character.
I never met a woman in my life like the ones in the book. I know, for once, that I wouldn't want a woman like that even as a friend much less as something more.
Wow I completely agree with your assessment! This book has been super tough to get through. Jordan's female characters are extremely under developed and have a finite range of emotions.
Where did anyone get raped in this book?
This is so true! Most of the female characters are disapproving of the guys but you can still see they care about them... but this is kind of tedious. Still enjoying the book though!
There's a lot of horrible women in this series but let's not forget the one horror to rule them all, the one horror to bond them: Egwene. Never knew one word could be so foul 😂
I don't understand this complaint at all. Yes, in the scenes featuring the female characters, there are criticisms of men, and in the scenes involving the male characters, there are frequent criticisms of women. Robert Jordan had a talent for writing in the 'voice' of his characters, that doesn't mean any of the thoughts he put in to the mouths of his characters represented his own views.
I don't like heavy notions of "genders" pitted against each other in any capacity, and I actually agree with you to a large degree, it really got annoying. To play the devil's advocate, however, I did find it interesting to see a role reversal where, in many high fantasy world building created by men, it's usually women having the discriminated roles in society. Looks like he flipped the switch. To be clear AGAIN, I agree with you, but I do have to say, now you see how many women feel! The dynamic is certainly interesting, but I don't really care for major gender grievances that make a huge plot point. Makes it tough because I really do love this series!!
OMG! That question you ask about the women in Jordan's life has been in my mind since the very first book. WTH, man, really, how can be ALL of them so terribly insufferable?
I find it pretty amusing the way they all have this superiority complex as they bumble along, ruining everything. Their plans almost universally fail. Maybe Jordan is going somewhere with this, but I can only hope at this point.
This was one of the problems I had with L. E. Modesitt, Jr's Recluce saga. Constant "Ugh, (wo)men!" and "I just don't understand (wo)men!" It became grating.
But then there's Min who is repeatedly referred to as the only woman who isn't totally insane. Of course, she's also supposedly a tomboy. And there is the fact that she's completely comfortable with falling in love with Rand with the knowledge that she'll have to "share" him. Which is either brave and stupid or spineless and stupid. And a more accurate depiction of female behavior than anything else in the book.