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MoonstoneOwl's Reviews > Babel

Babel by R.F. Kuang
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DNF at 60% but I skipped around until the end. Dark academia is hot right now, and Babel was supposed to be THE dark academia novel of the year. However, I absolutely despised Babel, and here's why...

RANT INCOMING:

What a boring, mean-spirited book. It had little charm and came from a place of hate. And can this author write about anything other than one person starting a revolutionary war? Even her dark academia novel ends up going in the same direction as her Poppy War trilogy. Sis hasn't gotten over her Hunger Games phase, it seems.

This book is SO dull. The only creative aspect was how the author managed to find different ways to say the same thing on every page: white people suck and they're evil. By the billionth time, a white person came along to crap on the main characters or say something stupid, I was like, 'Okay, we get it: whitey = evil.'

And the footnotes were annoying and useless. They didn't add anything to the story, and you could predict exactly what they were going to say before you even read them because 90% of them were just there to tear down every aspect of British history and culture. They'd pop in every now and then to tell you that some random thing was 'problematic.' No shit, Sherlock. Everything from 200 years ago (Sherlock Holmes included) is problematic. That's just history for you.

The characters:



Quick note: I remember seeing this fan art when Kuang announced on Twitter that she was writing a dark academia novel a couple of years back. It got me so excited to read this book, and I'm really disappointed that I ended up not liking it.

These are some of the most boring, one-dimensional characters I've read about in a while.

Robin - The author legit forgot to give Robin a personality. His defining trait was basically just noticing and reacting to racism.

Victoire - She was a perfect human with a flawless personality, which made her annoying. If she ever got mad at someone, the story would bend over backward to make her point of view justified.

Ramy - Ramy's defining trait was that he hates British people and their culture with every fiber of his being, but gets really upset when someone questions why he chose to study in Britain. The author was trying to do something with the hypocrisy of this, but because she was so hell-bent on portraying whites as evil and everyone else as good she missed the mark.

And then there's Letty, the blonde-haired white girl...

Letty breathes

Everyone in her friend group: 'Will this fcking btch ever shut up?'

Also...

Robin kills someone

The gang: Let's keep it a secret.

Letty: Hey... is this really the right thing to do?

The gang: I knew this btch was going to betray us at some point.

Letty was the author's favorite punching bag and outlet for all her hatred of white people. It was weird because Letty was created to be bullied and ostracized by the others. Was I supposed to enjoy this dynamic? There were scenes where the other three couldn't wait for Letty to leave the room so they could talk freely among themselves. It took all of their efforts to tolerate Letty being in their presence.

At one point Robin says that he feels sorry for Letty and describes her as the innocent one in the group. I thought the author was giving her favorite chew toy a break. But actually, this whole section was about how Letty's innocence came from her ignorance. She could never understand the others or truly experience things alongside them, and her attempts at caring and trying to connect with them were portrayed as annoying. When she grew impatient with their bad moods, it was supposed to be like a 'gotcha' moment, a confirmation that she's not one of them. Maybe this is a dig at white allies and the suggestion is that they'll always benefit from white culture. Even if they think they're being helpful, they're still part of the problem and will always be. See what I mean about this book being mean-spirited? lol

The cherry on top of this crap sundae was Letty's inevitable character arc. It turns out that Letty had a huge crush on Ramy, but Ramy could barely tolerate her presence. Because she couldn't have him, her entitled, sociopathic white rage finally came out for everyone to see. She betrayed her friend group and got Ramy killed (I don't know the full details because I was skipping around by this point). She destroyed him because she couldn't get her way with him. Maybe Kuang's message here is that the white woman's true self will come out when she's denied something because white culture teaches her that she can have anything she wants and minorities must fall in line with her will. Jesus... what a point of view lol. Then, to drive the point home, Victoire reflects back on her friendship with Letty and says that Letty was always a horrible, abusive person and now she finally sees it. Well I didn't see it. In the beginning anyway, I mean, Letty was acting like a fairly normal person. Does that mean the author wanted us to read negatively into everything she did just because... she's white?

All I wanted was for Kuang to present a more balanced view of humanity through the inclusion of Letty in the friend group. But nope lol! She thoroughly destroys any chance of that by making sure we know that all along Letty was a bad person, which means she was never really friends with them.

Another aspect of Letty that frustrated me was that the only sympathetic quality she was given was her minority status as a woman in college at that time. It was the only thing allowed to be good about her. So basically in the world of the book, if a character had a minority status they were allowed at least one point for sympathy. But unfortunately for Letty, being the whitest of whites gave her about minus 99 points automatically.

It was almost impressive how Kuang made sure that not a single white character is remotely likable. Even the cook, who was initially nice to Robin when he arrived in Britain, is later revealed to be a terrible person because she saw Robin getting beaten and didn't do anything about it. So yeah, kudos to the author for her dogged determination to make sure no white gets away seeming likeable.

The Message:

The book's message about the harmful effects of British colonization is important and worth discussing. It's undeniable that the countries under British rule suffered greatly. But while I can understand Kuang's strong feelings on the matter, I personally believe that British colonization is a complex issue that cannot be reduced to a simple dichotomy of good or bad.

I come from a culture that has been affected by British colonialism, too. My mother is from a small South Pacific island that was colonized by the British in the 1800s. The traditional customs of my mother's culture were replaced with western ones, and the actions of the British at the time caused trauma that still affects my mother's culture today. However, the reality is that if things had not happened as they did, I and many others would not be here now. We also might not have had the opportunities we have right now to create a positive future for ourselves and others.

While it's important to acknowledge historical injustices, dwelling on them and harboring resentment towards white people today is not right. The thing I don't like about Babel is that there are very few gray areas (from what I read), it's like 545 pages of encouraging the reader to see white people as one-dimensional caricatures, and embracing feelings of resentment and victimization and then feeling justified in these thoughts.

I think this book might encourage POCs to adopt a victim mentality. When I was younger I bought into the idea that as a POC, I had been wronged in some way because of the past. But these beliefs aren't even true and they also caused a lot of unnecessary insecurity and deppression. And I realized that there is no end to the blame game. I deeply regret wasting my energy on all of that. So I hate seeing my fellow POCs waste theirs by buying into victimhood and resentment when they could be doing things to actually bring themselves up. I understand that people are at different stages of healing, and I'm not saying that people should just shut up and be happy. I'm also not saying that my people's relationship with British colonization is equal to other nations. All I know is that this book tries to make it okay to judge others based on their minority status, rather than on just being who they are. This is a terrible way to view others. Further, I believe the book promotes a victim mentality, which, from my experience, only harms mental health in the long run.

Anyway so yeah, if you were to study at Oxford in the 1800s as a non-white international student, you would have been treated poorly by the locals. But even the book admits that at that time, Robin's home country of Canton was rife with misogyny. Every nation was committing vile and foolish acts 200 years ago. For example, my people used to literally eat their enemies. The last time I visited my mother's island, I purchased a history book about people being kidnapped and eaten by rival clans. This was not only for revenge, but it was also believed that the person consuming the victim would gain some of their powers. When the British arrived, they condemned cannibalism (and some of the missionaries were even speared and eaten as a result). The British may have butt in, but their decision to act as custodians over the islands set off a chain of events that led my mother's people into the modern world.

Last thoughts:

Each to their own, but I find myself side-eying the white people who are so eager to give this book five stars. Perhaps they're far less irritable than me or they enjoy masochism. Or maybe after reading 545 pages of white-people bashing, they've been worn down?

Additionally, many might be feeling like they need to be cautious when discussing the book because they know they'll be attacked for expressing their true opinions on it. It doesn't need to be said, you and I just know that calling out a minority's resentment of white people is not the done thing and opens one up to being attacked.

We've just accepted that white people are now punching bags for minorities in order to make up for the past. And whites have accepted this role and are expected to endure it because they supposedly "come from a place of privilege". When a POC spews hatred over whites, they're punching up, and therefore whites shouldn't be offended.

Firstly, that is not my idea of equality.

Secondly, I understand that white people mean well when they say they come from a place of privilege, etc, but it's cringey and minorities don't need to be coddled like that. If anything, the fact that we are bending over backwards to avoid calling out a minority author for this type of bigotry does not imply that whites are the privileged ones, now does it? Kuang is free to write whatever she wants, but her mean-spirited approach in this book is ultimately destructive. At least for me, it completely destroys any interest I had in this book or any of her future works.

Summing up:

Considering how popular this book is, it will likely encourage more people to buy into the blind hatred that leads to a lifetime of anger, suffering, and victimhood. That's sad because I would rather see minorities breaking the cycle of our intergenerational trauma by living well and thriving. You can't achieve that by being vengeful and expecting others to tolerate you, sorry.

This book was engaged in a mean-spiritedness that felt fundamentally gross to me. I call out gross shit when I see it, and if that makes me an uncultured swine, so be it

*Edited on 1/09/23 to make my points a bit clearer*
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Reading Progress

October 7, 2022 – Shelved
October 11, 2022 – Started Reading
October 11, 2022 –
12.0%
October 13, 2022 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-50 of 563 (563 new)


message 1: by Mizuki (last edited Oct 24, 2022 03:59AM) (new) - added it

Mizuki So, therefore, the headspace where we sit around feeling resentful and hateful of what white people did in the past is useless and short-sighted and only results in keeping one in a perpetual state of victimhood. That's a trap that I wish more people didn't fall into.

A very good advice, the white people who did horrible things in the past aren't the same group of the white people you might encounter in real life, many of these folks are okay.

Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Poppy War books are like, all evil, with zero redeemable quality blah blah blah.

I hate imperialism too, but I hate any overwhelmingly black-and-white, narrow-minded book just as much.


MoonstoneOwl Mizuki wrote: "Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Poppy War books are like, all evil, with zero redeemable quality blah blah blah."

Yeah, that's true. I wasn't a critical reader when I read The Poppy War, so I ignored all of that to focus on the fun parts. Babel was the straw that broke the camel's back for me because it was so dull there wasn't much else to focus on but the anti-white sentiment.

Thanks for reading my post, Mizuki :) As a long-time follower and fan of your reviews, I appreciate it.


message 3: by Mizuki (new) - added it

Mizuki MoonstoneOwl wrote: "Mizuki wrote: "Plus, haven't the author been like anti-white or something right from the start? From what I'd heard, the stand-ins for both the white-skinned Westerners and the Japanese in her Popp..."

Thank you for sharing your good opinions all the same.

Especially this part:

On that note, how dare I question how a minority expresses her feelings about white people? Some might even ask why am I defensive. Well, as a non-white person, I have nothing to be defensive about, however, there is something fundamentally gross and wrong about this book that goes against my principles.

I guess neither you or me are defending white people here, personally what I am trying to defend is history and the different experiences of the colonized people. You cannot just neatly and cleanly put one party to the 'evil camp' and the other to the 'good camp' like Kuang did, it's damn lazy.


Claudia MZ Your review read like an essay and moved me more than the novel itself! Good points and interesting insight


Danielle Thank you lord somebody said it! Another thing aside from the awful spoon-fed footnotes, she really hammered in how ‘evil� English people are (and ONLY them) and how nothing is done without malicious intent. As a black girl, I was actually lowkey offended with her spiel about the abolitionists doing so not because they wanted them to be free, but because they had something to gain. And yet, she mentioned the Quakers having to show evidence of black suffering to add to their cause. Well yes, if we’re going off of Kuang’s own point, then indeed they had to as perhaps parliament would not abolish it without that? How does that mean the Quakers had something to gain? I cringed so hard. Her making Victorie and Anthony mouthpieces for the black population rubbed me the wrong way. Aswell as them all only suffering racial discrimination on England’s shores? I mean seriously; just erasing the discrimination darker skinned people face in east Asian countries felt like a cope out. It would have added more nuance if Ramy and Victorie experienced something over there and it again challenged how Robin viewed his country as NOT EVERYTHING IS BLACK AND WHITE. It also felt as though she was trying to minimise the misogyny in Canton almost to amplify how bad Oxford was. Getting Professor Lovell to say how ‘barbaric� it was and how they treat women considering the sexist statements he rolled out throughout the novel felt like an intended joke.

We get it, colonisation is abhorrent, what is new? Who was her target audience? It definitely wasn’t the 2022 gen Z that Ramy parroted the whole way through. Such a disappointing read especially as it was my most anticipated.


gabriella escoto This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re just proving the point.


pulita Letty would love you.


Maggy Honestly I’m so grateful to have found this review. I finished Babel some days ago and I think it’s terrible for many reasons. And everyone liking it makes me feel like there is something wrong with me…so thank you for being honest about your feelings about the book.🥹


April First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too much here for me to unpack line by line, so I have chosen two of your specific points to address:

1) " So, therefore, the headspace where we sit around feeling resentful and hateful of what white people did in the past is useless and short-sighted and only results in keeping one in a perpetual state of victimhood. That's a trap that I wish more people didn't fall into."

This "headspace" is not not what keeps people in a state of victimhood, but rather the enduring legacy that colonialism has left us with. Racism is a systematic, institutionalized, reality in western culture. Our society is fundamentally inequitable and in order to address and repair the continued systems of oppression currently at work we have to understand and address the root source. To imply that we have nothing to learn from our history is naive at best. I'm glad that your life experience has been a positive one. However, I encourage you to look up data around gaps in racial wealth, employment, education, and criminalization to help better understand that for many this isn't the case.

2) "these days we have accepted that white people are now punching bags for minorities in order to make up for the past. Whites have accepted this role and they're expected to just endure it because they 'come from a place of privilege'. When a POC expresses their hatred for whites it's nothing more than an act of punching up and therefore whites shouldn't take offense."

Calling out racism is not an attack, but a statement of fact. White people are not a punching bag, but they have inherited a legacy of privilege. Therefore, they have the opportunity to either perpetuate the systematic racist systems they have benefitted from or consider their position and learn from these conversations. Not all white people are bad. And good people are capable of doing racist things, but then need to education about the impact of their actions and hopefully grow from them (dare I say, like you, writing this review). And media that attempts to start these conversations aren't looking to berate, but educate and inspire and maybe open up a window of understanding.

I am an adopted Korean millennial. I grew up in what was then the whitest city in America (literally, statistically) and for the first 25-ish years of my life I identified as white, believed in reverse racism (which isn't real), and did everything I could to separate myself from my Asian identity. It took a lot of reading, therapy, and conversation to make me comfortable in my own skin and able to fully embrace my identity. I do not know your race/culture, so cannot offer any specific reading materials, but I encourage you to seek out the memoirs of those with similar backgrounds as you. That was the number one thing that helped me to both articulate and then dismantle the internalized racism I carried for so long.


message 10: by Yan (new) - rated it 1 star

Yan C. April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."

While I should say I'm sorry for your unpleasant childhood, I wouldn't use a single worldview to every other experience. Babel's plot offered no real solution to racism.

As an Asian person myself, I see absolutely no racism internalized or otherwise in what OP wrote. Not having a total hatred of dead empires is not apologism for said empires.


Emily Ryder I feel like your review is coming from a place of ignorance and refusal of historical relevance. Mean-spirited? The only thing mean spirited is how colonizers rip the resources from overseas and destroy nations. It came from a place of hate? Maybe there is some justified hatred for how the British have done exactly what they did in this book over centuries to countries all over the world for resources and land and slaves. Every white reviewer that says they are upset by the "hatred" in this book is clearly uneducated on worldly history and the impoverishing and murdering of indigenous peoples. Yeah, maybe they are justified in hating the whiteys. "So, therefore, the headspace where we sit around feeling resentful and hateful of what white people did in the past is useless and short-sighted and only results in keeping one in a perpetual state of victimhood. That's a trap that I wish more people didn't fall into." Are you actually serious? Maybe the fact that racism and the effects of colonization and slavery still heavily impact victims centuries later is why there is STILL HATRED. You think indigenous Māori who have been killed, forced to assimilate, and impoverished by the whites taking over can't still feel immense dislike and distrust of colonizers decendents? They are the poorest ethnic group in New Zealand despite being the indigenous of NZ (this is one very small example). So no, people affected by this history do get to still be mad. They get to write books on how mad they are. They get to talk about how their cultures have been whitewashed and their countries ruined by colonizers and they should do so without being told to "shut up and stop being mad".


message 12: by nally nalka (new) - added it

nally nalka “but I personally don't think British colonization was patently evil but a mixed bag of good and bad� yikes just yikes.
“…but the fact that they chose to be custodians over the islands set off a chain of events that saw my mum's people ushered into the modern world� Ah yes this modern world with insurmountable inequality, raging systematic injustice and wage slavery as we’re on the brink of climate annihilation from its after effects years later but yeah what a great modern world to be forced into😐. What a hum drum of imperialist doctrination to think the way of the European Colonisers was the “modern� and “right� way while the indigenous culture was barbaric for something a minority partook in, like cannibalism. It is the disease that came with the uncleanly and barbaric colonisers that wiped out a lot of the indigenous population in countries all over but of course, MODERNITY right! The same people who’s monarchy were beheading, setting fire to and stoning their own family and vulnerable people for the most trivial reasons.

just How ironic to review bomb a book for being “mean-spirited� while writing the most mean-spirited and ignorant take seen thus far on it.

To each their own!


message 13: by Mizuki (last edited Dec 25, 2022 04:53AM) (new) - added it

Mizuki Dear MoonstoneOwl:

Sorry to see if you aren't in perfect agreement with R.F. Kuang, then you have people talking down at you, telling you you are an idiot who cannot think for yourself and/or an internalized colonialism apologizer.

In this light, I would say if you have time, it's always nice to read real academic books regarding racism and social issues (Stuart Hall, Paul Gilroy, Norbert Elias are the guys I'm currently reading about) than wasting your time dealing with malicious replies. At least the guys I mentioned above aren't going to talk down at anyone or reduce a complicated problem into a simple "white=evil, POCs=good".


Edward Leventhal Your review is well written, nuanced, and much better than the book.


Isabella Gonzalez I feel like I wrote this you hit it write on the nail with this extremely articulate and well written review


message 16: by Natalie (new)

Natalie Smith God, yes. I kept having "god we get it, white people BAD" eye roll moments while listening, checked reviews and realised it was an overriding theme of the book and quit. It was so heavy handed. Why did all white people have the attitude expected of the time period, but any non-white person had a 2022, modern view?

I don't think any sane person would deny that colonialism was bad and the effects of that ripple today. It doesn't need to be pointed out on every page like it's a revolutionary idea that nobody has considered before. At the very least, it's boring.


message 17: by lars (new) - rated it 5 stars

lars wow it’s almost as if you missed the entire point of the book!


Tiffany Thank goodness I am not the only one that saw the issues in the book. Is the book well written, yes. Is the book brilliant in some aspects, yes. I have many thoughts on this book none good. In the case of this book “what’s good for the goose will get the gander hung.�


Lauren I didn’t have the bandwidth to write a review anywhere near this level, but I hated this book with a passion. Great review.


message 20: by Fadomon (new)

Fadomon This review just made me want to read this book more. The stuff got you this mad is sure to deeply entertain me


Armani 😟


Esteban April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."

I'm so happy that this comment, as long as other in the same line, exist in this review! I got scared for a moment that all the people in this trend were behaving exactly like Letty did in the book.

Incredible how many people decided to find a problem with the author, but not with the reality of her book.


message 23: by Herb (new)

Herb Well written and reasoned. Would be interesting to hear you and the author discuss this on one of those civil podcasts.


message 24: by Mean (new) - rated it 5 stars

Mean Kitty April wrote: "First and foremost, I want to acknowledge that you identify yourself as not white. However, this essay is one of the strongest examples of internalized racism I have ever encountered. There is too ..."

Thank you for your incredible reply on this ignorant review. As someone who actually lives in a former colony of some European country, the impact of colonialism is still rampant. Sure no book is perfect but I feel heard and seen by this book. We know that a lot of young people read this book on instagram or tiktok and I'm so glad R. F Kuang uses her popularity to write an amazing, heavy-subject book, in a simple and clear language.


Sindoos This review made me a little sad, it's evident you missed the whole point of the book. It provided the rich nuance that you're claiming didn't exist and being a Letty apologist is wild lol


message 26: by JuneBug (new)

JuneBug I wholeheartedly agree. All we have to do these days is look around us in the past 6 years. George Foyle, Black Lives Matter, massacre of Asian businesses in Atlanta, white man killing anti racism demonstration in Wisconsin found not guilty. We know that it happens. You can’t look at the news and not hear about white people sucks! (Your word, not mine). Do we have to read about it in a historical fiction too. Although it’s historical, do you think she did the research?
I have to disagree on the footnote. I learn a lot from it. Not sure why you think it’s annoying. You are probably smarter than most people.


message 27: by Rumi (new) - rated it 1 star

Rumi I agree with literally every word and i’m only at chapter 14. Letty was really going to be good written character if she had chances. Besides robin. But nah. She’s just like what you described her seriously with every word.


calliope what in the internalised racism is this 😭 this is somehow the most white take on this book in existence and you’re not even white


Andrew If Kuang rewrote Babel to reflect Moonstone’s view, Robin’s central conflict would be between an undying love for Letty and a desire to reconnect with his roots represented in Griffin. Robin would conclude that love conquers all, all the suffering is worth the spoils, rat out the Hermes Society, and live happily ever after as Letty’s respected—but submissive—husband.


message 30: by Stefanie (new)

Stefanie Lozinski A brave review! Thank you!


Dickaholic Anonymus I don't realize why as poc we have to justify our hatred and emotions towards our oppressors in the most rational way. I thought maybe this book will make white people finally empathize with us. If you thought that "white people bad" was the message you didn't care about the extreme amounts of racism the characters had to experience. If you felt sorry for Letty then you don't care about the evil shit she said and done. And you surely did not give a fuck about their cooperation with the English Proletariat nor about the experiences of poc with racism, war, slavery, poverty, sickness etc nor about the long 19th century and its history. But then again you didn't read the book. You really shouldn't write a review about a book you haven't read. For the love of god at least read it completely.


Dickaholic Anonymus Oh and btw - what in the internalized racism is this review. "Every nation did bad things, the British actually banned cannibalism in my country" Please open up a history book about colonialism. Your small island didn't economically exploit multiple nations in a way that the effects are still seen to this day.


Jasmine Wang What did I just read lmao


Angelica Smeds What a massively bad take, shows that you didnt read it completely�


Smriti this review summed up: internalised racism


message 36: by Amy (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amy Reed wow....someone really didn't understand the point....and maybe a bit of a closet-racist.


message 37: by Zarbin (new)

Zarbin Ella wrote: "This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re just proving t..."

The British empire took accountability for slavery and racism by passing the Slavery Abolition Act on Aug. 1, 1834. It then spent tens of millions of dollars and sacrificed many thousands of lives fighting slavery on the open seas and looking to end the slave trade. From 1808-1860 the Royal Navy captured 1600 slave ships and freed 150000 enslaved Africa.

Britain set a precedent for ending slavery in the west and interestingly enough slavery is still heavily practiced in dozens of countries to this day. Britain has done more than almost any other country in existence to make amends for its history. You'd know this to be true if you spent any time in London in the past 10 years.

To simply cast aside this review as ignorant and baseless only evidences your own bigotry and bias.


message 38: by Mizuki (new) - added it

Mizuki Zarbin wrote: "Ella wrote: "This is the most ignorant and baseless review I’ve ever read. You should look at why you reacted like this. The British empire still doesn’t take accountability for racism and you’re j..."

There is no use saying all these, if you dare to breathe one word about what had been done for the decolonization process in the UK, then you are just another imperialism apologiser.


message 39: by Mutiny (new)

Mutiny The fact people can only do the equivalent of "name calling" with asinine statements like 'bad take' and 'internalized racism' just show how damn stupid they are and how the world is getting dumber by the day.
Not even one counterargument, not ONE. In such a long review it shouldn't be that hard to find a single statement to write a simple rebuttal to right? If the person is so wrong, explain why I wanna know, otherwise STFU. You're the living negative stereotype of the modern liberal that calls everything 'problematic' with no actual basis, just a bunch of teen angst you never grew out of. It makes the rest of us look bad. Now go ahead, claim I'm racist or some other false and empty platitude to make yourself feel better.


message 40: by Vellichor (last edited Aug 06, 2023 03:49PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Vellichor As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down your argument into a few major contentions and discuss my thoughts on those points. You’re not obligated to read this � I know I find hearing other people openly disagree with me uncomfortable � but I think this is worth the discomfort.

Firstly, I’d like to talk about this notion you present of white people being used as a punching bag for minorities and the broader idea of universal white evilness. To begin with, you can’t only view this book and its characters through a contemporary lens. Obviously, not all white people are terrible people. I think it would be redundant to state that quite a lot of my friends are white and they try to understand where I’m coming from on the subject of race and imperialism when I discuss it. But you have to consider that most of the white characters in the book are coming from significant places of privilege and many of them do have ulterior motives. Take, for example, the end of slavery: yes, it was partially brought about on moral/religious principles, as it was inhumane according to Enlightenment ideals, and it would be absurd to minimize the role that slaves had on their own freedom � take the Haitian Revolution for example, of the Great Jamaica Revolt � but there was also an economic component to it; release of slaves was a pipeline to free labor which in turn increased capitalism and kept the global market turning only at somewhat greater inconvenience. And even if they don’t have ulterior motives, Britain is spoonfeeding them racist, xenophobic rhetoric to keep public favor of imperialist expansion � Social Darwinism and the idea of a ‘civilizing mission� (Kipling’s The White Man’s Burden is an excellent example of this) are two major ideologies that were used to legitimize their subjugation of foreigners. So I don’t expect that white people in the mid-19th century would be very forgiving to me or you if we were to show up to pursue education at their beloved Oxford. Hell, my mother studied at Oxford just a few decades ago and she still had quite a rough go at it.

Regarding the footnotes � I think that’s down to personal preference. I appreciated them because I enjoyed the bits of extrapolation and historical context and am not unused to digression, but I get if you found it heavyhanded. It seems to me that ‘show not tell� isn’t Kuang’s greatest strength, but I didn’t find it was obstructive to the text as a whole.

Let’s talk about the characters. You found a lot of them flat. Valid enough, but we’ll have to agree to disagree. Robin underwent such a momentous arc as the glittering facade of Oxford crumbled around him and he slid into a sort of darkness � or perhaps awareness � alongside it. I don’t think Ramy can only be defined only as a hater of England � it’s just that suddenly he’s surrounded for the first time in his life by people who can see where he’s coming from. It’s that sort of talk that makes white people uncomfortable, and I think he was trying to prod that sore spot a bit. And seeing as I’ve had friends call my stovetop Chai-making pretentious, I can’t blame him. I see where you’re coming from with Victoire; I really would have liked the characterization that began to unfold later in the story a lot earlier, especially because she’s in the toughest position as a woman and a person of color. And then, as you say, there’s Letty� whose chapter I thought was well done. Letty was in a strange position because she was disadvantaged as a woman but ultimately would not be rejected and ostracized by the country she studied in like the others. The problem isn’t that Letty’s innocence comes from her ignorance, the problem is that she knows that British, spoonfed ignorance is protecting her and that’s why she betrays the others. I’d like to point out that the time the others are waiting for Letty to leave is because they desperately need to discuss a secret society that she is not part of and is not likely to be sympathetic to anyway. And about her and Ramy � yeah, Ramy liked to make her uncomfortable sometimes, but Letty always found more excuses to blanket herself than ever to admit she was wrong. Also, it’s implied that Ramy was gay and wasn’t interested in her, not just that he can’t tolerate her.

Finally, I really want to talk about this alleged ‘POC victim mentality� and place of harboring resentment that’s apparently afflicting the youth these days, which I think I’m pretty qualified to speak about, as a person of color and a youth. I know myself, and I know that it’s pointless to blame people today for the wrongs of the past. I don’t spend time plotting vengeance or feeling victimized. Yeah, I agree; that won’t get you anywhere. And I understand that I, like you, would not have the opportunities I have today if things in history hadn’t gone down the way they did. But I have my parents to thank for that � people who were brave enough to leave their country looking for greater opportunities; people who left their homes across the ocean where they were safely well off to work from the bottom up, only riding off their educations and money they’d saved or gotten as marriage gifts; people who sacrificed so much so I would be growing up as less of a stranger in a strange land � not the British or any other imperialist society. Like Robin realizes, I can recognize that colonizers changed the shape of my family’s history without needing to thank them for it.

There are a few things I can’t really address. I have no insight into the goings-on in the minds of any Caucasians who give the book 5 stars (I’d be interested to hear their thoughts, though). I’m not going to argue with the fact that you found the book dull � I mean, not every book is going to be everyone’s cup of tea in terms of pacing and narrative voice, and that’s perfectly alright.

I’ve struggled for years with my identity. I love the food of my culture, but I don’t feel any fondness for its politics and can’t justify whether they’re better or worse than that of the country I was born and raised in. I can understand my parents� language, but I can barely get past reading and writing the alphabet and can’t seem to think of it as my own. I like the clothing but feel jarred and disconcerted when I wear it. Seeing Robin wrestle with the same questions as I do made me feel less alone, and the first time Ramy was introduced I had to swallow my tears because I have always been too afraid to write a character so much like me. The point of the book isn’t for people to hate white people or buy into anger and suffering, the point is for people to recognize that this colonial legacy is still upheld in the status quo of today and maybe for readers whose lives have been changed by colonialism to see themselves in and find some solidarity with the characters. I’m sorry that didn’t work out for you.

So: I think Babel is a story that needed to be told. It’s not a performative novel, and it comes from a place of good intent, but most importantly, it’s a story that needed to be told because formerly imperialist countries still don’t take accountability for their actions. Latin- and South American markets are weaker because dependent development meant that they industrialized very late; China got Hong Kong back less than 30 years ago; stolen Indian gems are still displayed as the crown jewels of the English; the global market gap that arose from British imperialism in conjunction with manufacturing increased rural poverty across Asia as cities could not sustain the population growth. And those effects are visible today. Babel is important because there are worldwide repercussions of imperialism that are not going away anytime soon, and governments that benefited from it once are still befitting of it.

To postface: I recognize that many of the points in my rebuttal draw on my own lived experience and that your argument stems from your own lived experience; I’m not here to poke holes in your personal experience or invalidate it in any way but I hope that my rebuttal will let you see another take from a different point of view, from one person who has to live with the weight of a colonial legacy etched into your family history to another.


message 41: by Mizuki (last edited Aug 08, 2023 04:58AM) (new) - added it

Mizuki Vellichor wrote: "As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down yo..."

I like how you present you points respectfully, but then this happens:

China got Hong Kong back less than 30 years ago;

And have you read the news in the past 3 years and learned anything about how many of the HongKongers feel about the CCP government and the British government right now? Or how do the Taiwanese, the Mongolians, or the Uyghurs feel about said regime when Taiwan is threatened with military invasion, the Mongolians and the Uyghurs got their languages, cultures, and religion suppressed and outlawed?

Have you noticed that many HongKongers would rather migrate to Britain or USA or Canada or other white people countries in waves during the 1984 to 1997 period once they realized "China will get Hong Kong back" in 1997 as you so "lovingly" described?

Have you noticed that in the last two years alone 170,000 HongKongers migrated to Britain because they cannot deal with the CCP's BS anymore? And many more migrated or fled to other countries for the same reason!?

Before you talk again about how "China got Hong Kong back" like it's the only rational, righteous, politically correct thing to do, please do reconsider.

My following point is not against you, but I'm quite sick and tired of people talked like white people are the only race that is capable of racism, suppression, discrimination and wrongdoings, but Chinese and Indians etc are not capable of the same things, or they were not capable of imperialism of their own when China, India etc were empires like Britian back then.


message 42: by Mizuki (new) - added it

Mizuki Vellichor wrote: "As a person whose family also comes from a country that was a British colony well into the '40s, I understand where you’re coming from but disagree with you on the whole. I’m going to break down yo..."

Plus it's purely and beautifully ironic that you brought up Hong Kong as an example of the Imperial British Empire's wrongdoings and exploitation when after WWII, the population of HK society is made up of migrants and descendants of migrants fleeing the disasters (political persecutions, executions, famines, etc) kicked up by the CCP even since 1949. That includes at least one of my late grandfathers, so do excuse me for feeling personally offended by your comment.


Lauren Thank you. Completely agree and if you point this out, people get mad because you are supposed to support openly hating white people too. It was a completely mean spirited book


Simon Dearing I wish Id have read this before starting it. I'm all for tolerance and truly want equality, themes that are unfortunately not explored in this book. If your comment was made into a book itself, it would still have more depth than what Robin has. Seriously I don't care about Robin. You killed a guy but because he was white then its ok. We're just so lucky that it was only Britain that did anything bad to anyone ever.
Letty has only two character traits- a privileged white girl who always says the wrong thing and even when attempting sympathy or compassion is simply infuriating to her "friends". For example when Letty cannot possibly go more than 2 days without bathing or washing her clothes (that bitch!) yet is also their "prim English rose" before then becoming "that white bitch".
The plot holes are deeper than her character.
The author has drummed into it every five sentences about "this is bad" "this is racism" as though its the most subtle nuanced example ever committed to page.
Every single white character in the book is condescending, brash and awful, whereas every single poc character is brilliant, articulate and always on the right of the argument, especially when killing off the pesky white folk. It feels like the starting passage should have been "I'm not racist I have white friends". Instead the book is one LONG language lesson dressed up as "fantasy" when the one element of Fantasy within the book is barely used and fails to make any real difference to the world its employed in.
I fail to understand the pacing, where the first few years at Oxford fly by with many months passing by in the blink of an eye, and yet for page after page seemingly insignificant points are hashed, rehashed and then rehashed some more. Then lets put a little authors note in there so my audience know what's going on.
Why write a book with so much passion for language (which i really found myself enjoying actually) as a textbook almost in its dryness, yet then assume that your audience only has two brain cells and that one of those is being used on being racist.
Overall at the end of the book I find myself disappointed at an opportunity missed, at a failed promise of potential and no doubt looking forward to reading thousands of "Ha closet racist" alert by the people who loved the book.


message 45: by Mary (new) - rated it 3 stars

Mary Great review.


Ornella I loved your review!


Christina I wish I had read this review picking up this book.


message 48: by Jason (new)

Jason Thanks for this review. I'm only 15% into the book and I am already tiring of the heavy handed white people = evil narrative. Now I know it doesn't get any better I can put it down and never pick it up again.


Shandra Buhmann Smith Thank you for writing this. 👏🏻


message 50: by Linda (new) - rated it 1 star

Linda THANK YOU! I was not enjoying this book but felt guilty because it seems densely creative and appropriately "woke." Now I can quit with a clear conscience!


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