Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Discuss this portion of the story.

Chapter 8 just blew me away. NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, that he deserves them in some ways more than their actual owner. At least he realizes that he is being a bit ridiculous in assuming that Tita would realize how anxious he was about the papers, as though she doesnt have something more to worry about!

We do see that he rationalizes all of his actions to himself. He convinces himself that Tita set everything up so that he could in and search for the papers, that if she hadnt meant for him too, she would have done a dozen different things differently. Do you think that this is true? Do you think that Tita wanted him to come in and get the papers, or do you think that no matter what she had done he would have rationalized his entry another way?

In Chapter 9 I think I lost the sense of time. I'm not sure how I feel about the wrap up. I felt more culdve been done with the mystery. There were more questions that I wanted to have answered. Where was Tita's American money coming from? What made Julia become a recluse? Was there a hidden shame hidden in those papers?

In the end, was James saying, "sometimes you don't get to know, deal with it, you can have a story without knowing everything?" Thoughts on James?

Becky wrote: "...NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, that he deserves them in some ways more than their actual owner...."

I haven't discerned whether NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, or that he believes Aspern (and his poetry) is so significant that the world has a case for access to as much knowledge as possible about him, especially the possible revelations of these letters -- a belief in part corroborated by his publishing partner.

I'll say more later, but James has a particular knack for getting his characters to attempt to figure out what they want, what they will "pay," and to show us just where and how far their moral scruples will take them. He may pose those questions in characters, but the quandaries seem not irrelevant at times to entire cultures and institutions (even governments in some of his longer works).

One of the things that haunts about the ending is whether the portrait reminds NN more of the papers he did not "save" or of Tita, whom he also "lost" or "forsook", depending on how one reads the story and how romantic the interpretations towards which one leads. After all, we can surmise our NN was a lonely man at some level or another. (And, to no surprise, movie versions appear to touch on that aspect.)

Given his stories, I wonder sometimes how many women attempted to entice Henry James and what his own feelings were in such encounters. I went on to read the short story "The Liar" and had the same musings again. Does one sense a subtle dance of avoidance and approach in his stories, or is one overlaying what one thinks one may know about Henry James.

Part of the fun of this read for me has been to return to Gissing's The Odd Women and pose Henry James's questions -- what did each really want, what was each willing to do or pay to obtain that, what were the moral scruples each ultimately encountered? (Sorry, that's pretty much a repeat of my last post applied backwards to TOW.)

I found several of the Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ reviews very worthy of reading.

Sidebar question: what would the world give for a better portrait of Jane Austen executed during her life time? For letters between her and a suitor?

Is loss of privacy one of the costs of immortality?

I haven't discerned whether NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, or that he believes Aspern (and his poetry) is so significant that the world has a case for access to as much knowledge as possible about him, especially the possible revelations of these letters -- a belief in part corroborated by his publishing partner.
I would agree here, except that I dont remember NN ever thinking about anyone else in relation to those papers. They were for his book, they were of his idol. I dont really remember him speaking about those papers as a "gift to the world" though I couldve missed that part.

Is loss of privacy one of the costs of immortality?
That is exactly what I was talking about in the earlier sections of the book. As a historian, I naturally want these papers, however, I'm not sure we ever have a right to someones darkest secrets even if it has been one hundred years since theyve died.

Becky wrote: " As a historian, I naturally want these papers, however, I'm not sure we ever have a right to someones darkest secrets even if it has been one hundred years since they've died. ..."

Becky -- I have resisted technology that I have seen as an invasion of privacy, especially such as could restrict freedom of movement in times of political oppression -- all totally futile efforts so far as I can tell. Our technologies have implemented broad capabilities to trace location and movement. In addition, as you are well aware, more and more people seem to be willing to open their lives to wider and wider access. Some of this seems "good" in the sense of reflecting acceptance of a range of human attributes that need not be kept hidden for reasons of shame or guilt or self-inflicted danger. The right to privacy seems to have been so much taken for granted in the historic past that what little I have explored suggests that privacy "rights" are not well encoded into law or perhaps even moral precepts.

So, I am curious. What are some of the key precedents, laws, moral principles or writers to which and whom you turn for support on your position as a historian? Also, while I am very concerned about privacy as a matter for living human lives, I'm not so convinced but what a price of earthly immortality may be post-mortem loss of anonymity -- with due legal protections for still-living persons. So, I'm curious as to who is arguing these subjects in what venues.

See also: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9... Messages 90-92

Lily wrote: "One of the things that haunts about the ending is whether the portrait reminds NN more of the papers he did not "save" or of Tita, whom he also "lost" or "forsook", depending on how one reads the s..."

That's a really nice question. But I wonder whether the portrait is really that closely tied up in his mind with Tina/Tita, or whether he cherishes it because it is only the fourth known image of Aspern in existence, and he has something which no other Aspern scholar has. (Hmmm -- is he going to hoard this as much as the aunt horded her papers?)

For me, Chapter 8 dragged, with not a lot happening either in events or in character development. Though since I was skimming I may have missed some things I shouldn't have. For a novel, such a slow pace would be expected, but a short story, even a somewhat extended one, I expect the pace to be more robust.

Lily wrote: "Sidebar question: what would the world give for a better portrait of Jane Austen executed during her life time? For letters between her and a suitor?
"

Or Shakespeare? Letters to and from his wife, for instance?

Becky wrote: " As a historian, I naturally want these papers, however, I'm not sure we ever have a right to someones darkest secrets even if it has been one hundred years since they've died. ..."

Becky -- I have resisted technology that I have seen as an invasion of privacy, especially such as could restrict freedom of movement in times of political oppression -- all totally futile efforts so far as I can tell. "

Since privacy is clearly a significant issue of this story, it's reasonable to discuss it here, isn't it?

It seems to me that privacy is very much a product of large cities. I have lived much of my life in small communities, and I know from experience that there is very little that is private about life in a small town, particularly for families with children in school. When there are only one or two barbershops and hair salons in town, not to mention only one post office where everybody goes daily to check their box, gossip is rife and spreads to everybody. And whatever activities one is in -- garden club, Chamber of Commerce, Rotary, Lions Club, theater group, or whatever, everybody is only two degrees of gossip away from everybody else in town.

I grew up in a small, close knit community, and everybody knew everybody's business. No matter where I went, anything I did promptly got back to my parents (party lines helped in that, too!) There was a great deal of safety for kids in the community, since everybody looked out for everybody else's kids, but I had no illusions that anything I did would be private.

There are probably sociological studies on how large a community has to be before there is a legitimate expectation of privacy, but I do think that the concept of personal privacy is a a fairly recent phenomenon.

I only gave this novelette three stars in my review. How did others review it? Do you agree or disagree with my comments on it?

The heart of my review, after a brief description of what the story was about, was:

The story line is thin, with limited depth and few incidents of interest, and the events are predictable. The center of the story is the development of the relationships among the three characters. Individually the characters are interesting, but I found some of the interactions forced and unconvincing and others inadequately justified and developed. As in other of his works, James mixes English and American characters in a foreign country, but in this case he does almost nothing with the national differences that work well in others of his books.

The descriptions of Venice are perhaps the most interesting, certainly for me the most enjoyable, aspect of the story. The writing is excellent, not surprising for James, and helps cover the deficiencies of the plot and events.

I only rated it 3 stars as well. I was left with too many questions at the end, and felt that there could have been much more mysterious if James had emphasized other moments in the story: such as where did Tita get her money?

Overall the novella raised some interesting questions for me personally about privacy.

By the time I reviewed it I had already started reading The Turn of the Screw which is absolutely enthralling. I'm enjoying that one so much more that I definitly feel that James could have done more with tihs particular story. I'm very excited to start the next book, and I will definitly look into reading more James as I have never read Americana.

Any guess on why James chose it to lead his New York edition? (Supposedly he liked it.)

For me, it was quintessential James, foreshadowing both Portrait of a Lady and Wings of the Dove, or, for me, providing insight into them.

Reading through several of the other sets of reader comments, I could identify with several of them, both the 4-5 star ones and the 1 star ones. James is a nuisance to deal with -- which is part of what makes him so dastardly enticing. (E.g., it is very easy to overlook NN's attraction to Tita and question one's interpretation of the text in that way, but would NN really have returned if he hadn't been willing to marry her, albeit probably a Victorian marriage as much of convenience as of true love. It was probably reader comments and movie trailers as much as my original reading of the text that took me to that possible interpretation. James asks to be chewed on, like asking his readers to be friendly, affectionate mastiffs thrown good bones.)

I think that the ending shows James as a transition figure between the classic pre-modernist (pre-Hardy perhaps) English novel which always comes out okay in the end to the more realistic novel where life doesn't always end happily ever after.

In fact, knowing James's place in the progression of the English language novel, I never expected him to get the papers. That would have been too sicky-sweet an ending for James. Austen could have managed it certainly; Trollope or Hardy would have left me in suspense because both of them could go either way, success or failure, but with James, I was sure from fairly early on that his quest would fail. So any element of suspense the novel might have held was really missing for me.

Is this the same experience others had, or did you wonder until the end whether he would finally get hold of the papers?

Everyman wrote: "I do think that the concept of personal privacy is a a fairly recent phenomenon...."

Are you saying there were not skeletons in the closet, or secret loves, in small communities?

What do Faulkner's A Rose for Emily or Eco's The Name of the Rose set in a medieval monastery imply about the keeping of secrets within small communities?

Or, perhaps we needs must ask, what is privacy?

Growing up in a rural community, my experience was much of family affairs were considered nobody else's business. That didn't mean gossip and rumor were non-existent, but there was a heavy vein of "not my affair" and looking the other way about the dealings of others while holding ones own close to the chest.

Lily, I wondered what your thought was about what Faulkner implied about the Emily story and secrets in a small town? And are keeping deep or dark secrets in a close community the same thing as the everyday privacy that Everyman talks about with his comments about small towns?

And separately, are secrets of the heart not a different thing altogether?

I think there are a number of ways of interpreting the Faulkner story, from according self-determination and "privacy" to Miss Emily to willful neglect of a woman and neighbor in need, with all sorts of variations in between, probably none "the truth", many with validity.

I'm not sure what "everyday privacy" is -- my impression is that Everyman's small, close community experiences have been considerably different than mine (both rural and suburban). Part of why my quip that one probably needs to define what "privacy" is -- something our laws have not particularly done and maybe cannot.

I don't know what to do with "secrets of the heart." My mind jumps from religious beliefs to passionate imaginative dreams to slave owners and mulatto offspring to hidden gender relationships to sixty year faithful marriages to infatuations to young lovers to .....

So, do say more on how you see secrets of the heart as a different thing altogether.

Was Faulkner's story in this case a a study in other social issues then and not about privacy? I was wondering how you tied it in to the issue we were discussing?

and I was saying that everyday privacy is where you go about the ordinary business of life. Picking up a few things at the store, visiting the library, if you meet friends on a regular day of the month for lunch. You have more natural privacy in these matters in you live in a larger city, less in a very small town. And neither is good nor bad, just the nature of community. In a small community, more people know your everyday business, but it is not to your detriment really. And at some point, you will find it easier for people to come to your aid (locking keys in car at library-I saw 4 people I knew in the 40 minutes I was in that predicament and borrowed 1 cell phone).

Secrets of the heart, I meant to address your question of were there no secret loves,etc. in small communities. My view is that if there are humans anywhere, there are secrets of the heart. And that might mean secret passions of any kind for someone you love or something you do, secret feelings of past incidents or connections, secret hopes or dreams. I think we all protect a good deal of them regardless where we live.

Lily, the privacy issue is a good discussion point. I am not sure how well the law defines privacy either. And I see so many personal things revealed online on Facebook, it makes me wonder how many individuals really protect their own privacy. So do lawmakers really need to spend public time doing that beyond the basics?

SarahC wrote: " So do lawmakers really need to spend public time doing that beyond the basics? ..."

I don't know, Sarah. I just went on and used Mapquest to lay out a trip. In doing so, I discovered most of my trips or planned ones for the past several years were stored. I believe I live in a land where those won't be used against me. However, if it were a dictatorship with citizen monitoring.... Or, if (when) something like McCarthyism happens again.

I see privacy as very much a "social" issue as much as it is a personal one -- one of how we treat each other as individuals and as members of larger groups. That's why the Miss Emily story came to my mind. (Think of the underground railroad, or the movement of refugees, or the saving of children and adults during WWII or the odd ball neighbor in the next block; yes, very different cases, all raise questions as to what our relationships should be.) I quite agree that most of us aren't particularly concerned about privacy most of the time -- e.g., whether the list of books we checked out could be used in a court case, let alone the ones we put on a list to take a look at while we were at a public library. We are all increasing aware of the vast amounts of market and polling data that is collected from and about us -- some of it definitely accruing to our benefit.

PS -- If I drop out of this discussion for awhile, it will be because I am without Internet connectivity, not lack of interest! Until then, will keep an eye on the posts and respond if appropriate.

Lily wrote: "SarahC wrote: " So do lawmakers really need to spend public time doing that beyond the basics? ..."

I don't know, Sarah. I just went on and used Mapquest to lay out a trip. In doing so, I discov..."

Those are good points, and you did mention the two sides of the issue-- information that could potentially turn against us, and information that we benefit as a whole in society. (or most benefit from)

My view is that the information age will not likely reverse itself. It goes along with the technology that has been created and progressed for decades. Looking at our nation as a leading nation in the world (as opposed to less powerful countries under oppression currently), we will never again be in the conditions we were in under the McCarthy era. Or at least we need never be under those circumstances. Our technology tells much about each of us, but in turn, technology allows each individual to find out much about the world -- IF that individual chooses to do so. We have many tools available to be an intelligent, searching, researching citizenry. No one should have to be one of the masses, who is simply "told" things to believe about the government or their own neighbor.

I know in the recent couple of years, many people have been led to live with a fear of the government. I mean a daily, building fear. I think that is because media puts forward so much information "against" things. I see that as no way to live OR to protect yourself against government gone wrong. I do feel that every hour a person spends reading on his own about matters of concern and actually personally working "for" something will be what protects them from the feared invasion of their lives in some way. I mean literal hours going to work for something as an individual, because that keeps you better connected with local, state, and national issues. You find out much more of the real story behind the media quotes. And again, technology and progress helps you to promote your own causes also. So a person could choose not to use online methods to publish information connecting himself with a social cause, but then others will not know about his social cause. It is give and take. And in times of peace, it is hard to compare the privacy issues that would be needed in times of war or civil conflict, such as you mentioned of war refugees and movements like those of WWII and the U.S. Civil War.

SarahC wrote: "...we will never again be in the conditions we were in under the McCarthy era...."

I hope you are right. Yet, I'm not certain it is easy to be certain people even in the U.S.A. today despite our so very freedom oriented society.

SarahC wrote: "I was saying that everyday privacy is where you go about the ordinary business of life. Picking up a few things at the store, visiting the library, if you meet friends on a regular day of the month for lunch. You have more natural privacy in these matters in you live in a larger city, less in a very small town. And neither is good nor bad, just the nature of community. In a small community, more people know your everyday business, but it is not to your detriment really. And at some point, you will find it easier for people to come to your aid (locking keys in car at library-I saw 4 people I knew in the 40 minutes I was in that predicament and borrowed 1 cell phone)."

I relate to that definitely. When I lived on Staten Island and worked on Manhattan, I took the ferry across every day and never met anybody I knew. Now I live on an island on the other coast and take a ferry to the mainland perhaps once a month, and I never take a trip where I don't see people I know and could easily ask for help if I needed it. My sister in law had a medical problem that required her to go the hospital on the mainland regularly, and she always walked on and always got a ride with somebody she knew and found on the ferry to the hospital (90% of the traffic off the ferry went within a few blocks of the hospital. The hospital provided a shuttle back to the ferry, and she could have called for a shuttle from the ferry to the hospital if she hadn't met somebody on the ferry, but she never had to).

Two islands, two ferries, two very different sized communities, two very different experiences!

Lily wrote: "PS -- If I drop out of this discussion for awhile, it will be because I am without Internet connectivity, not lack of interest! Until then, will keep an eye on the posts and respond if appropriate."

Oh dear. We'll miss you if you do have to go; hurry back!

I was out of town, but I dont feel that I have much to contribue to the privacy discussion that has not already been said. It is a necessarily complex issue, and is becoming more and more of a legal issue as the world continues to interconnect.

Becky wrote: "Chapter 8 just blew me away. NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, that he deserves them in some ways more than their actual owner. At least he realizes that he is being a bit r..."

Rationalization is certainly the word for it! He repeatedly excuses every step he takes - entering the room, approaching the desk, reaching to see if he can open it - by saying that it occurred to him that Tita had arranged it this way because she wanted him to. I don't think that Tita had been thinking that at all. I do think that the narrator has finally shown some human emotions because he really does feel a bit guilty about what happened to Juliana, so he is trying to excuse himself.

And I also was disappointed that more of the mysterious questions were left unresolved.

Lily wrote: "Becky wrote: "...NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, that he deserves them in some ways more than their actual owner...."

I haven't discerned whether NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, or that he believes Aspern (and his poetry) is so significant that the world has a case for access to as much knowledge as possible about him, especially the possible revelations of these letters -- a belief in part corroborated by his publishing partner."

Although the narrator is certainly anxious to publish the papers, as I believe you have pointed out before, I don't believe that is his primary motivation. I feel that this is very personal to him and that he is personally obsessed with Aspern. Perhaps even his motivation in publishing is to show what an expert he is on Aspern, to garner that coup that nobody else could achieve, to prove that he is the ultimate Aspern fan. I think his concern is for himself, not for the public.

Lily wrote: "One of the things that haunts about the ending is whether the portrait reminds NN more of the papers he did not "save" or of Tita, whom he also "lost" or "forsook", depending on how one reads the s..."

I don't believe that the narrator was ever romantically attracted to Tita. He only saw her as a means to achieving an end. He was initially repulsed when he realized that she seemed to want to marry him. He did finally decide that it would be worth it to get the papers, and when he returned, he saw her as attractive for the first time, but again, I think it was the thought that he would finally achieve his goal that imbued her with a beauty that he had not seen in her before. Once she revealed that she had destroyed the papers, she changed back into an unattractive old woman once more.

Everyman wrote: "That's a really nice question. But I wonder whether the portrait is really that closely tied up in his mind with Tina/Tita, or whether he cherishes it because it is only the fourth known image of Aspern in existence, and he has something which no other Aspern scholar has. (Hmmm -- is he going to hoard this as much as the aunt horded her papers?)"

I think the latter - he has a unique relic of Aspern. Interesting question as to whether he will hoard the painting!

Another question that occurred to me is why the subterfuge about telling Tita that he sold the portrait, rather than just sending her the money as his own payment for it. Again, could it be because of his feeling of guilt in what happened to Juliana? I'm not sure that he even really acknowledges to himself that he is guilty, but I think that subconsciously he does feel it.

Everyman wrote: "Is this the same experience others had, or did you wonder until the end whether he would finally get hold of the papers?"

I have to admit to wondering until the end!

Lily wrote: "I just went on and used Mapquest to lay out a trip. In doing so, I discovered most of my trips or planned ones for the past several years were stored. I believe I live in a land where those won't be used against me. However, if it were a dictatorship with citizen monitoring.... Or, if (when) something like McCarthyism happens again."

I'm not at all sure about this, but I think that your past entries are not stored on Mapquest, but on your own computer (in either the cookies or the temporary Internet files). So I don't think that you need to worry about others perusing where you have been!

A question for folks: at what point (or never) do you think the aunt knew who the NN actually was? i.e., that he was one of the editors who had early tried to get hold of the papers?

Everyman said "A question for folks: at what point (or never) do you think the aunt knew who the NN actually was? i.e., that he was one of the editors who had early tried to get hold of the papers? "

I kind of wondered if she had her suspicions from the start. He seemed overeager to have the room, and people dont normally show up asking a recluse if they can board there for no good reason. Tita often remarks that the aunt does not trust him, but she does want his money.

She seemed so crafty, even to the end. I actually kind of liked that about her. She was one of the more interesting characters to me. Tita seemed like a ghost, and the NN seemed like just an obsession and less of a character, but with Juliana we have parts of her history and her mental landscape.

Everyman wrote: "A question for folks: at what point (or never) do you think the aunt knew who the NN actually was? i.e., that he was one of the editors who had early tried to get hold of the papers?"

I agree with Becky that she had her suspicions from the start, but I think she became certain after she had sent Tita to the garden to find out more about him. As I said in that section, Tita's question to the narrator about whether he had published about Aspern seemed odd, and I think that Juliana had instructed her to find out.

Becky wrote: "Chapter 8 just blew me away. NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, that he deserves them in some ways more than their actual owner. At least he realizes that he is being a bit r..."

After 4 tries to read the last 2 chapters, I finally managed it. Not James fault, rather life's. Anyway, I don't think that he was invited in by the door being left open. I think he had no business being there, and would justify his actions no matter what. I think the justification process is shown really clearly in Chapter 9 with his viewpoint of the niece (elderly can't, not so bad can, elderly can't).

I really enjoyed the twist at the end, and felt it was NN's karma giving it back to him. Even at that last moment he was still looking to get what he wanted no matter what ramifications.

Lily wrote: "Becky wrote: "...NN feels so strongly that he has a right to those papers, that he deserves them in some ways more than their actual owner...."

I haven't discerned whether NN feels so strongly tha..."

I personally think NN feels he has a right to those papers because, after all, he's the one who went to Venice, invested the money, not to mention the time in obtaining them.

Everyman wrote: "I think that the ending shows James as a transition figure between the classic pre-modernist (pre-Hardy perhaps) English novel which always comes out okay in the end to the more realistic novel whe..."

For me, even though the papers were NN's major obsession, it became less of a focus for me. It was more about what would the characters do IF they got the papers, didn't get the papers, etc.

SarahC wrote: "Lily wrote: "SarahC wrote: " So do lawmakers really need to spend public time doing that beyond the basics? ..."

I don't know, Sarah. I just went on and used Mapquest to lay out a trip. In doing..."

My concern here with the privacy is different than has been brought up so I figured I'd add in another view. One of my concerns with the privacy revolves around things like Facebook being used by a potential employer to decide to hire me. Even though I was supposed to technically have some control over who could view my items via their security system. Now take it a step further. Say I have a genetic disorder of some type that a friend knows about (I've told them verbally). In being supportive, they post something to my page. Now my employer has it who turns it over to my health insurance carrier and now I'm denied coverage. My concern is misuse of the information by corporations where the individual is harmed.

Everyman wrote: "A question for folks: at what point (or never) do you think the aunt knew who the NN actually was? i.e., that he was one of the editors who had early tried to get hold of the papers?"

Great question. I think the aunt knew what he was after, but did not necessarily connect him with the previous correspondence. I do think, once he revealed his true name to the niece that the aunt put it all together (based on our previous discussion of lack of secrets in the household).

There is one relationship that we may not have discussed in the story. What are your thoughts of the narrator's relationship to Aspern? After all, the narrator sees Aspern as guiding him on this quest for the papers to an extent. His preconceived notions of Juliana are from his interpretations of Aspern's work? His idea that he will romance and sway these women to begin with are based upon a male view and what he chooses to see in the poetry of his dear Aspern.

I don't think there was a relationship, per se. Instead, I just see it as a complete obsession. Almost as if the NN doesn't have a choice, but to follow some of this stuff because he's so driven. It reminds me of the modern day stalker type who are so obsessed that they lose sight of reality.

His notions about Juliana are from the work. But, in his defense, he doesn't really get a lot from the lady herself to really be able to see what is truth and what may be embellishment.

Deborah wrote: "I don't think there was a relationship, per se. Instead, I just see it as a complete obsession. Almost as if the NN doesn't have a choice, but to follow some of this stuff because he's so driven...."

I agree that he was strongly committed to trying to get the papers, but I'm not sure I would classify it as a complete obsession. After all, he was a scholar working on the editing of Aspern's poems, and as such had a professional interest in them. I've known some scholars who would go to pretty much the same lengths to uncover a trove of papers central to understanding the work of a writer they have been studying, editing, and writing about for decades.

And when "push came to shove," he found that there was a price he wasn't willing to pay to get them. Wouldn't a true stalker/obsessive have gone ahead and at least promised to marry Tina to get access to the papers? He has, after all, virtually courted her, hasn't he? Doesn't she have a reasonable expectation that he would agree to marry her and take her away from her poverty? One wonders -- or certainly I wonder -- what will happen to her now. Her aunt dead, little if any money, no lover, and probably too old to get one now, rejected almost with repugnance by a man who seemed very interested in her not only as a niece but as her own person until the M word came up, and then suddenly, a kick in the psychic gut, the man not gently letting her down, but "leaving her in horror."

What's going to happen to her?

I think there are two schools of thought here. Some think that the narrator's obsession springs from his interest in studying and publishing about Aspern. I think the opposite - I believe that Aspern (and Cumnor) are obsessed with Aspern to begin with; they worship him almost as a god. I think that their interest in publishing his works is the outward expression of that obsession. So, I think we have a 'chicken and the egg' kind of dichotomy going on here in our discussions.

Although the narrator initially was repulsed by the idea of marrying Tita, he did go away and decide that he was willing to pay that price. He returned with the intention of marrying her in order to obtain the papers, and was only repulsed a second time by the revelation that she had burned the papers. I'm of two minds on whether he had courted her during his residence in the house. I think he had originally considered doing that, and mentioned it to his woman friend. However, it seemed to me that he tried, while attempting to get into her confidence, to stop just short of courting her or leading her on. I don't think this was out of any consideration for her so much as because he just wasn't interested in her.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Juliana had led Tita on with notions of the narrator. I believe that Juliana wanted to use Tita to find out about the narrator, and she may well have encouraged her by implying or telling her that this might be her only chance of snagging a man! As a result, Tita came to see him as a possible romantic partner, culminating in her expecting him to marry her in the end.

...

For a modern day Aspern story -- with some significant differences. I am going to post this in the research thread as well and suggest that any discussion go there rather than here, but this story of a Mahler photo seemed parallel enough to what we are reading to call our attention to it here. I originally read the story in the NYT (paper copy) this past week, an indulgence of mine on days when Internet access is not readily available.

Denise wrote: "...I don't think this was out of any consideration for her so much as because he just wasn't interested in her...."

Denise -- you touch upon what I have come to love about James. He gives you so much that there often become many ways to read his work, he deals with issues of significant moral weight, but he provides more quandaries than guidelines.

I am inclined to read the ending with Aspern's portrait on NN's wall as an indication that it is a reminder of both the failure to obtain the papers and to find a companion. Some clues I use -- he provided money to Tina, yet he did not sell the portrait (considered second rate?) nor apparently use it in publications -- couldn't this imply some sense of obligations incurred towards her? He apparently was attracted enough that he returned and seemed to be considered marrying her -- once he got through her initial somewhat of a shock offer. Still, now he arrives and what had been his original driving motivation that he had lived with for a long, long time has disappeared. Shock again. Get out of here. Then, eventually the poignant second thoughts and considerations -- not to be revisited from some stubborn place of resistance?

I must admit my reading is heavily influenced by The Wings of the Dove , which drove me up the wall for much of three months this spring. But the character there of Merton Densher is the one I relate most closely to NN -- legitimate professional and personal ambition, unintended romantic entanglement, escape and freedom -- maybe, probably not.

Denise wrote: "I'm not at all sure about this, but I think that your past entries are not stored on Mapquest, but on your own computer (in either the cookies or the temporary Internet files). So I don't think that you need to worry about others perusing where you have been! ..."

My distinct impression was that I was receiving information from the "Google Cloud", rather than stores on my own computer, but I am not 100% certain about that. (I believe I was on my new computer, to which I have transferred relatively few of my files yet. But, that is not my only reason for thinking the info came from the "cloud" -- more just my years as a techie and lack of clues that would have tipped me to the cookie/internal likelihood.) However, probably most relevant is that this was detailed information about myself I did not know was being retained, would only be partially able to verify, and now is apparently available to others (even if they might have to impound my PC) to get it.

We haven't had any discussion on the probability that this story is based on the great romantic poet Shelley and his "sister-in-law" Claire Clairmont.

In reading through the Wiki article about Shelley, I found such a source tale fascinating, alongside another possibility that this story might be based on Lord Byron and Claire Clairmont. Neither poet exactly a minor figure.

According to the article, Percy Shelley is "critically regarded as among the finest lyric poets in the English language." So, details about a romantic tryst with a "sister-in-law" alongside his marriage with her stepsister Mary Shelley would hardly seem of minor interest to his admirers?

I've not been a reader of poetry and know little about either Shelley or Byron (perhaps a tad more than about Shelley). Anyone here who has had greater interest and might comment?

Lily wrote: "We haven't had any discussion on the probability that this story is based on the great romantic poet Shelley and his "sister-in-law" Claire Clairmont..."

This article argues for Hawthorne as the inspiration for Aspern (James had done biographical research on Hawthorne for the "English Men of Letters" series):



"James, 'The Aspern Papers,' and the Ethics of Literary Biography" by Gary Scharnhorst