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ARCHIVE - WEEK 10 � CLEOPATRA -> Chapter Eight - Illicit Affairs and the Bastard Children (p. 223 - 260) - (MAY 18th � MAY 24th) - No Spoilers, please
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
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The tenth week’s reading assignment is:
Week Ten - May 18th � May 24th, 2015
Chapter Eight: Illicit Affairs and the Bastard Children, p. 223 - 260
Chapter Overview and Summary
Chapter Eight - Illicit Affairs and the Bastard Children
Antony and Cleopatra must have felt as though they were the powerful rulers of a vast Eastern empire. In addition to the wealth of Egypt itself, their client kings also provided revenues. The triumvirate still officially existed through the end of 33 BC, although Lepidus had no power or lands. There was lots of strain between the remaining triumvirs, each with complaints against the other.
Antony and Cleopatra left for Ephesus, gathering a large army and navy there. Meanwhile in Rome Octavian denounced Antony and 400 Senators left Rome to join Antony in Ephesus. Many of them demanded that Cleopatra leave for Alexandria but she refused, arguing that her navy might not fight for a Roman general. Next they went to the island of Samos, then to Athens. Reports from Athens had Antony totally besotted with Cleopatra, ignoring governmental and military duties. Finally Antony divorced Octavia and ejected her from his house in Rome; she took their children with her.
Antony’s will was taken from the Vestal Virgins by Octavian and the contents read to the people. In it Antony gave several Eastern kingdoms to his and Cleopatra’s children and he declared Caesarion co-ruler of Egypt and legitimate son and inheritor of Caesar. Since Antony was obviously in thrall to the Egyptian queen, Octavian and Rome declared war against her.
Antony attempted to hold a defensive line on the west coast of Greece, but Agrippa and his ships captured Antony’s southern base at Methoni. Antony was forced to move north to Actium, which had a splendid harbor, but the surrounding land was ill suited for camp grounds, plus not all the infantry had arrived. The Egyptian fleet was larger than the Roman, but many ships were undermanned because of an outbreak of malaria. Also, several of the client kings abandoned Antony. While the final faceoff of the fleets was occurring, Cleopatra’s flagship and several other ships left the harbor and sailed away. Minutes later, Antony followed with about forty ships. Antony transferred to Cleopatra’s ship, but refused to see her. They finally landed on the northwest coast of Egypt; Antony went west to Libya, where he collected four legions. Cleopatra continued on the Alexandria with her ships decked out in flowers as though she had been victorious. Back at Actium, Antony’s nineteen legions and 12,000 cavalry surrendered to Octavian.
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by Nicolaus of Damascus (no photo)(no Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ entry)
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It was ever thus.
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Well, her empire was on the line.
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I think it's easier to keep your head and strategize well while on the rise, but when what you've amassed is on the line, it's a much bigger challenge.
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Perhaps lack of trust was what motivated her retreat. On the other hand, they had the kids to promote. That's a mutual interest deeper than whatever loyalty he had to Rome.
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Well, he was already an old(er)man. Maybe he was just tired of it all but wanted to push it anyway because that is what he was supposed to do as a Roman. Those silly games of thrones can cost you in every way that counts for a guy like him. Plus, it's not like he lead an exemplary life....one that would keep him in good health both physically and mentally/emotionally. That's the way I see it, anyway.
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In many ways Antony seemed like someone who never completely grew up. He should have learned from Caesar's problems that staying away from Rome for long periods was NOT a good idea. Gives the other side (Octavian, in this case) too great a chance to influence Roman minds.
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"While Caesar was away in Egypt, Antony remained in Rome to govern Italy and restore order. Without Caesar to guide him, however, Antony quickly faced political difficulties and proved himself unpopular. The chief cause of his political challenges concerned debt forgiveness. One of the Tribunes for 47 BC, Publius Cornelius Dolabella, a former general under Pompey, proposed a law which would have canceled all outstanding debts. Antony opposed the law for political and personal reasons: he believed Caesar would not support such massive relief and suspected Dolabella had seduced his wife Antonia Hybrida Minor. When Dolabella sought to enact the law by force and seized the Roman Forum, Antony responded by unleashing his soldiers upon the assembled mass. The resulting instability, especially among Caesar's veterans who would have benefited from the law, forced Caesar to return to Italy by October 47 BC." (From )
Vicki wrote: "Too true, Heather. But even when he was in Rome years earlier as Caesar's Master of Horse, he didn't handle things well."While Caesar was away in Egypt, Antony remained in Rome to govern Italy a..."
Sounds like Antony could have learned a lot about governing and PR from Cleopatra. She knew how to make herself popular with the Egyptians.
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She was much better at handling domestic affairs than foreign relations. Antony, on the other hand, was out of touch with his own countrymen.
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I think that Heather's msg 19 is sort of correct but remember that Cleopatra was a queen and needed no Senate as a Roman did.What seems to have happened here, very interesting and overwhelming detail, is that both forgot their "identities" and to be aware of the other's "identity"
Antony knew that Cleopatra could not be his Roman anything and he ignored that he had abandoned two "good" Roman women to take up with and stay with the Egyptian queen.
Antony knew that he should have - had to - spend more time in Rome and keeping his troops "with him"
Cleopatra seems to have ignored the basis of secure power which she certainly had worked for all her life. She must have known that Antony needed to be in Rome - did she think he was "royalty" as she was? - she knew it was not so.
Cleopatra had succeeded to bring prosperity to Egypt - but this was, I think, in the eyes of the Egyptian people "her" accomplishment.
Antony's accomplishments usually involved equal or almost equal allies.
Cleopatra seems to have "used" some of the children and it seems to me they were "hers" not really "theirs" - both of Caesar and Antony.
This is also reading for me and I cannot keep all the characters straight - but the main couple I see.
Some of Cleopatra's "foolishness" could be attributed to her ability as a queen to have her fancies allowed.
Anyway - this is what I think that they both forgot that they had to pay certain dues (Antony more than Cleo) to keep the power they had acquired - and that they had to cope with their persistent enemies
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Maybe Bentley is more concise.......
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The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Life of Augustus (other topics)Cleopatra: A Life (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Nicolaus of Damascus (other topics)Stacy Schiff (other topics)
For the week of May 18th � May 24th, we are reading Chapter Eight, p. 223 - 260
Illicit Affairs and the Bastard Children of the book Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff.
The tenth week's reading assignment is:
Week Ten - May 18th � May 24th
Chapter Eight, p. 223 - 260
VIII: Illicit Affairs and the Bastard Children
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on March 16th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.
This weekly thread will be opened up on May 18th.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Vicki will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Jose.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Introduction Thread
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Table of Contents and Syllabus
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Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.
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Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
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Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?
I will modify these directives as we go along but for now utilize the information here.
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