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Proposed Reading Schedule for The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco


Week 1: 2/10 to 2/16: Prologue, First Day Prime, Terce, and Sext p.8-64 (56 pages)
Week 2: 2/17 to 1/23: First Day Toward Nones, After Nones, Vespers, Compline p.65-97 (32 pages)
Week 3: 2/24 to 3/2: Second Day Matins, Prime, Terce, Sext p.101-141 (40 pages)
Week 4: 3/3 to 3/9: Second Day Nones, After Vespers, Compline, Night p.142-178 (36 pages)
Week 5: 3/10 to 3/16: Third Day From Lauds to Prime, Terce, Sext, Nones, Vespers p.181-220 (39 pages)
Week 6: 3/17 to 3/23: Third Day After Compline, Night p.221-256 (35 pages)
Week 7: 3/24 to 3/30: Fourth Day Lauds, Prime, Terce, Sext p.259-299 (40 pages)
Week 8: 3/31 to 4/6: Fourth Day Nones, Vespers, Compline, After Compline, Night p.300-332 (32 pages)
Week 9: 4/7 to 4/13:Fifth Day Prime, Terce, Sext p.335-368 (33 pages)
Week 10: 4/13 to 4/20: Fifth Day Nones, Vespers,Compline p.369-407 (38 pages)
Week 11: 4/21 to 4/27: Sixth Day Matins, Lauds, Prime, Terce, After Terce, Sext, Nones 411-452 (41 pages)
Week 12: 4/28 to 5/4: Sixth Day Between Vespers and Compline, After Compline, Seventh Day, Last Page 453-502 (49 pages)

Interested Group Members:
Michelle
Zulfiya
Stephanie
Becky
Andrea
Catherine

Okay, what does everyone think of the week 1 reading?

What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.
-Shakespeare

I have read the Prologue and Prime, so I guess I am halfway there. I am interested in finding out what readers think of the following quote: "Mary no longer loves the contemplative life and Martha no longer loves the active life, Leah is Sterile, Rachel has a carnal eye, Cato visits brothels, Lucretius becomes a woman." Who exactly are these people? I am assuming that some a Biblical references, and some historical. I believe Lucretius was poet? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I loved the following passage: "And one day it will be possible, by exploiting the power of nature, to create instruments of navigation by which ships will proceed unico homine regente, and far more rapid than those propelled by sails or oars; and there will be self-propelled wagons and flying apparatuses of such form that a man seated in them, by turning a device, can flap artificial wings, ad modum avis volantis. And tiny instruments will lift hige weights and vehicles will allow travel on the bottom of the sea."

This one made me think of all the wonders of technology that people used to dream about, and that we now take for granted. This age of wonder, sitting on the very edge of discovery is an interesting choice for the backdrop of the story. Oh the possibilities!

What's in a name, indeed! The other thing that comes to mind is the term 'sub rosa' that is used to denote confidentiality or secrecy, and yes, we have already been introduced to some secrets - the author of this narrative and who is presenting this story to us (there is no direct contact between potential readers and the narrator).Someone comes across the document, written by Adso in his golden age while he (Adso) is telling us the story of his sweet young days.
The second mystery is easily solved by William, and the third one is about the possible murder that looks like a suicide. Phew, mind-boggling!

There are so many thing to comment in this section that I definitely feel to be torn apart. The novel is both cloistered (monastery) and historically accurate with numerous allusions and citations. I have never questioned the historicity of the first chapters, but we question the mysteries and the reality that surround Adso and William. Quoting Shakespeare (again!), it is easy to say that all is not well in this monastery ...

On the other hand, the descriptions are so atmospheric that you feel the gloom and the darkness of the isolated and secluded monastery.

Andrea wrote: "Lucretius becomes a woman."

I am definitely far from being a connoisseur, but knowing Eco's personal enthusiasm about puns and allusions, I would suppose that he is hinting at both Lucretius and Lucretia. Lucretius was a poet and a philosopher, and Lucretia was a semi-iconic figure, whose rape and suicide triggered the end of Roman monarchy. It might be far-fetched, but Lucretius wrote the poem 'De rerum natura', and the part of its discusses the transformation and changes the material and biological world goes through - that's how Lucretius becomes Lucretia:-) Besides, suicide is one of those things that has already been mentioned.

Great explanation, Zulfiya! That makes a lot of sense.

I also noticed that just like The Brothers Karamazov, The Name of the Rose contains a lot of theological discussions. However, I it looks like I am enjoying this one much more. It is interesting how William's views on inquisition are so different from his friend Ubertino's. I wonder how he hadn't gotten in trouble before for tolerating the Spirituals.

Also, it looks like some people already know who the perpetrator is, and William is given a tricky task of investigating without visiting the murder scene. Isn't it a great set up for a mystery?

Oh, and is it me, or the name William of Baskerville was chosen for a reason? :)

Andrea wrote: "Oh, and is it me, or the name William of Baskerville was chosen for a reason? :)"

I think this is THE BIGGEST allusion so far. William is from Albion, and he likes natural philosophy and deduction, and yes, The Hound of the Baskervilles is possibly the most recognizable mystery novel:-)

Zulfiya wrote: "Andrea wrote: "Oh, and is it me, or the name William of Baskerville was chosen for a reason? :)"

I think this is THE BIGGEST allusion so far. William is from Albion, and he likes natural philosoph..."

Also, for me, the manner in which William is able to deduce what's going on is reminiscent of Holmes' ability.
This is the second (or third) time I've tried reading this book and this time I'm getting a lot more out of it. There are so many classical and contemporary allusions that it keeps me busy just figuring them out.

Hello everyone,
I'm new to the group and would like to join you for this side read!

Thanks to Michelle and everyone else for leading this discussion. I doubt I would have picked up this book otherwise. Loving this so far!
Erica

Okay, confession time...I cannot get into this book! I don't know what it is exactly, but I was really trying to read this yesterday, but I just wasn't digging it. When does the story pick up? I need some incentive...

Just noticed you guys are reading this. I read it a couple of months ago, and for me it took over half the book before things got interesting. But it's worth sticking with, Michelle, as things do get quite exciting.

Thanks for the info! I feel bad since I'm supposed to be heading this one up and I'm just not loving it as I hoped. Of course, it probably hasn't helped that I'm reading so many books at the moment. :)

Are we allowed to discuss part 2?

Definitely! Discuss Week 2!

Sorry, I'm about to go upstairs to read Week 2 but wanted to type my thoughts about Week 1 in first. Frankly, I was a little worried about this book, I wasn't that fascinated or entertained by the proglogue, and was worried that the author would perpetually come off as dry. I feel that as writing as Adso, however, he has found his voice. Yes, perhaps it is dry, complicated sentence structure, etc, but it seems appropriate so it doesn't bother me.

I realize that the author is a professor, but I'm very fascinated at how he has worked into even the dialogue the major philosophical questins of the day. There is constant talk about the "form" of something (see Plato) versus what can one, anyone, actually know. What is the difference between a form, an abstract concept of a thing, and an individual, and how much do we need to be aweare of with either to say that we can "know" anything. These were hugely important questions at the beginning of the Renaissance, the Church was desperately trying to create a rational doctrine of the Trinity and God's power that was in line with Greek greats of philosophy. Saint Thomas Aquinas worked on this himself, but there were so many others who were working on it as well, however, as Aquinas' theories were those eventually accepted by the Church many others became heretics, even though they were simply existing at a time and trying to answer questions of how God could be man, etc, .

I feel that this sort of question about philosophy will be a running theme through the book.

Becky wrote: "Sorry, I'm about to go upstairs to read Week 2 but wanted to type my thoughts about Week 1 in first. Frankly, I was a little worried about this book, I wasn't that fascinated or entertained by the ..."

You are right, Becky! I feel the same about the novel. It is a pseudo-mystery story, a hermetic mystery with the sealed and isolated place, and the number of suspects, although huge, is limited. But I also think that this book is, first and foremost, a philosophical dialogue between epochs, readers and the author, books, ideas, and quotations.

As far as the second part is concerned, I am totally mesmerized by this cloistered secluded world. I believe Umberto Eco is trying to recreate a world within a world. The center of this world is definitely a library. It is widely known taht at that time monasteries were the places of learning, and we know that our characters meet other characters (mostly the scholars), and some very famous books are mentioned in the novel. Despite being a Christian monastery, this library and its inhabitants (at least Severinus read Arabic books, and most of them are familiar with the books by Greeks and Romans) are quite knowledgeable about other cultures and languages. They are definitely by modern interpretation book-smart, but that was what required. The library in the monastery boasts a number of wonderful books, and it also represents a certain hub of tension. Knowledge was the only true power for the monks and scribes, and power brings tension, stress, and unrest.

The description of illuminations is so enigmatic. It is as if the book kept all the traces of the people who read, re-read, re-wrote, or decorated it - a layer after layer of personal history, vision, discoveries, misconceptions, and interpretations.

BTW, can you imaging this way of cataloging the books in the library? They are recorded and stacked when they are purchased, donated, or obtained in any other way, but only the librarian knows and REMEMBERS their locations. A memory is a gift, but as Jorge insists, forgetfulness is equally a blessing. :-)

Thoughts on Week Two

I was caught up in Adso's descriptions of the different monks working in the Scriptorium. I remembered Adso saying at the beginning that he wouldn't bother to take the time to describe anyone's physical attributes other than his masters, however, each monk we meet seems to get at least a paragraph of description. Not only that, but all of them seem to put of Adso in one way or another, the physiogonomy of each leaves him uneasy. I dont know what this is supposed to say about him as the "author" of our books.

I have to admit that during some of the debates on the licitness of laughter I got lost. I feel t hat on the surface I understand the argument, but I can feel much deeper currents underneath and I feel like I'm failing to understand. Maybe it will become more clear later? Or maybe this is how we get into the novice mindset of Adso?

I've never read Roger Bacon... but this book is piquing my interest. I've read Aristotle and Aquinas, the other two "greats" that William seems to base his intellectual propensities on, I may have to look up Bacon.

And I felt that the quote on pg 97 was particularly illuminating, "Because learning does not consist only of knowing what we must do or what we can do, but also of knowing what we could do and perhaps should not do." The Church at the time would have disagreed, they recognized greater scientific knowledge out there, but felt that since it might weaken a lay person's faith because they were too uneducated to fully understand it, that it was better to hide that knowledge. I have the feeling that what William is saying here would ahve been deemed heretical by quite a few.

Becky wrote: "Thoughts on Week Two

I was caught up in Adso's descriptions of the different monks working in the Scriptorium. I remembered Adso saying at the beginning that he wouldn't bother to take the time to..."

In regard to the quotation, I think Eco is using it to illuminate us about the present-day situation. Knowledge is still sacred, and not everyone is initiated to know more:-)

Week 3 and 4 then?

I am reading it, and as soon as the discussions are open, I will post my thoughts.

Sorry guys, discussions are open! I've been out of town and not keeping up with this. Feel free to follow the schedule and begin talking about the new week as soon as you are ready. Go for weeks 3 and 4!

The more I read, the more I get the feeling that this monastery is the replica of the medieval world in miniature - there are monks with certain functions that represent particular classes - apothecaries, illustrators, scribes, cooks, farmers. The monastery is self-sustained; hence, there are people with different roles, but I also have a feeling that it is not accidental.

Jorge of Burgos, the blind guy, is definitely a direct allusion to Jorge Luis Borges, the director of the National Public Library in Argentina who, as it is widely known, was affected by progressive blindness later in his life.

I also think that William of Barkerville, as well as his later fictional counterpart Sherlock Holmes, is more preoccupied with the mystery and the enigma of the mystery, let's say the chemistry if of crimes, rather than the pursuit of the real murderer.

I finished re-reading the novel. Has anyone else finished reading or re-reading it?

I am still sticking to the schedule, but have been having some temptations to finish it up. Seeing that you are done already, I actually might! Besides, I have just started A Storm of Swords, so I need to free up some of my reading time for that. Let's see if I can do it this weekend.

Yes Zulfiya! I got completely caught up in the reading and finished it very quickly. After the first 100 pages or so I was afraid this would be a snoozer, but I couldn't have been more wrong. The Name of the Rose is now one of my all-time favorites :)

I was trying to stay caught up, but I started a new job and life just kind of got in the way. I'm sorry for bailing out, I really try not to do that, but when we had started I was unemployed with seemingly endless stretches of reading time in front of me.

Makes me wonder why I tried to get a job haha.

Unfortunately I dont think that I'll be able to finish this one. So Sorry!

THIRD DAY - NONES
Hi all! New to GR and this group. Hope you don't mind me butting in. Glad to find people reading this book and discussing it.

I have a question about this chapter. I'm rereading in Italian. My English edition omits lots of content. Unfortunately, the part in question doesn't appear in the English. But perhaps you can verify something for me.

William is explaining to Adso how R.Bacon (and W) envision the future of natural science (and empiricism) to lie outside the monastery. "...Learned men grow up outside the monasteries and the cathedrals, even outside the universities."

In the Italian version he continues, "Look, for example, in this country, the greatest philosopher of our century was no monk, but an apothecary (spice merchant?). I speak of that Florentine whose poem you'll have heard named, that I have never read because I don't understand his vulgate, and for all I know I wouldn't like much because it raves about things very far from our experience. But he has written, I believe, the wisest things that may be given to understand on the nature of the elements and of all the cosmos, and on the conduct of states."

That last bit may refer not to politics/govt. but to science/physics - how things in nature work/can be utilized. My Italian isn't the greatest. Anyway.

Is it Dante and his Divine Comedy that W so admires? One place online suggests it is but maybe it is Machiavelli, Boccaccio, or even Petrarch. I'm itching to know if William of Baskerville admires Dante so much. Quite different from admiring Machiavelli.

Thanks in advance for your 2c.

It is great to see more people joining the discussion.

QBeam- I honestly have no idea, I didnt know that the English wasn't a complete translation of the work.Its always interesting to see how things are left out when they are published in different nations. Even Harry Potter was edited for American audiences, I ended up buying the British versions just to see how they were different.

I bought this book for my kindle since my Library was starting to email angry letters. Whoops. It really is a fascinating book, its so unfortunate that I just dont have time at the moment. Soon though the weather will turn ad I'll have much more free time on the weekends!

I go to Eco's abbey with the intention of moving in for the winter. Do some books seem seasonal to you? Wintertime is time to curl up in a warm corner and immerse yourself in that chilly mountain abbey, that little world devoted to books. And murder. Some places require that you stay a while to properly appreciate them. Not a book for the harried reader. A perfect winter read. Better late than never!

Books are most definitly seasonal to me, and some more so than others. I always try to read horror in Halloween, the early night seems perfect for ghostly settings. I also read Treasure Island every single summer. I've probably read it around 15 times. It heralds the season for me.

Unfortunately, here in Nebraska, we are getting unseasonably late snows, so its still the right weather for this book. Im within 300 pages of the end in about 6 books that I want to finish, and then I'm going to plunk down and thoroughly and leaisurely enjoy this one.

Love how one book leads to another. I found a radio drama version of this book in Italian, thinking it was an audiobook. Sometimes I listen to the radio show - VERY dramatic. But I stick to the book every evening. My recent daytime book was "Illuminations". A fictional history retelling the life of the nun and mystic Hildegaard von Bingen. Now "The Swerve" about the rediscovery of Lucretius during the Renaissance. Eyeing a bookcase with poems of Hildegaard, Lucretius, Epicurus, Aristotle, Dante, daVinci, and Thomas Aquinas. But what I'm really itching for next is to learn me something about Bacon. What does one read? He sounds fascinating.

DAY 3, AFTER COMPLINE

Spent yesterday getting my heretics straight in preparation for the big convention at the abbey.

Some interesting observations about heresy and cults. How "the simple folk" transfer anything hopeful they've ever heard about a sect and impose it upon whatever "prophet" wanders through town. So there is this process of accretion. Where once there was an original idea of how to go live a life and apostles gather around the holy man, "the simple folk" start to show up with their own ideas of what it's all about, their own expectations. Schisms occur. Or those who joined up with ideas different from what the sect was intended to espouse end up giving the sect a bad name. Confusing the goals of the sect. Member behavior inconsistent with the beliefs of the leader. And thus heresy is done in by its own heretics.

But in a similar fashion, those who would judge new sects impose their own accumulated experiences and prejudices from previous heretics upon the new such that they see no difference between valdesi and spirituals and fraticelli - burn them all.

I'm wondering how much our understanding of the heroes and villians in our past influence whom we choose to embrace and follow and whom we persecute. How much accretion occurs to OUR judgement?

William and Ubertino have both had to grapple with this mess. One as a leader of the spiritualist sect, the other as an inquisitor of heretics. Both are disillusioned by their former roles and no longer certain how those roles should continue. How to venerate the holy man without getting derailed by other agendas? How to punish the heretic when our judgement may be impaired and it's impossible to extract the truth? How to pursue what is true when you just wanna do right by God.

So confused by Ubertino's special veneration of three living women he deems "pure" and his intense spiritual communion with two biblical saints + the Virgin Mary. Yet his utter contempt for women as The vessel of all temptation and evil. Not to mention the creepy way Ubertino is depicted as somewhat handsy with Adso. A very confusing character. Is this supposed to be a case of the biggest misogynist in the room is the one who most readily identifies with women? That at least would make sense. Otherwise he's just very confusing.

Qbeam wrote: "So confused by Ubertino's special veneration of three living women he deems "pure" and his intense spiritual communion with two biblical saints + the Virgin Mary. Yet his utter contempt for women ..."

The whole perception of a woman was ambiguous in the Middle Ages. Eco deliberately conveys the two interpretations - women similar to Virgin Mary and mundane women that are treated as potential witches. In every aspect Eco recreates medieval world, and quite often he exaggerates its features. After all, it is a fictional universe, IMHO

I still can't quite decide what I think. I understood most of the biblical references, although I'm a little fuzzy on some of the post-scriptural Saints, so I didn't catch all those nuances. I felt like when the story actually moved toward the conclusion of the deaths, it was fast-paced and very interesting, like any current murder mystery, but when it sidelined into long philosophy sections, it seemed to lose itself. Yet, the philosophy and debates about it seemed to be so essential to the outcome of the story.

The ending, with the (view spoiler)[burning of the library and the entire complex (hide spoiler)] hearkened very much to the gothic novels and dark secrets in old manors (Jane Eyre, anyone?). But I think Eco meant it more as a kind of purging, perhaps? Like expunging all evil and heretical ideas? Or was it more meaningful of the dangers of collecting and hiding knowledge?

And what did you think of William? At times, he seemed gentle, kind, and a good teacher, and others, he seemed harsh, rude, and careless. He even admits he was blundering along the whole time, that he came to the conclusion accidentally, through false assumptions. And Adso: does he learn anything from all this? Or does his (view spoiler)[going back for pieces of fragments from the old library (hide spoiler)] indicate his own hiding of knowledge, dwelling in the past?

I did enjoy when they finally figured out the way into the secret room, but a lot of the explanation left me going "huh? Who cares?"

Regardless, (view spoiler)[anytime a book or library is burned, even fictionally, I feel horribly sad, and makes me think of all that was lost at the burning of Alexandria. (hide spoiler)]

The treatment of women was definitely interesting. It's really a small sidebar to the story, but it feeds into this whole secluded idea, what maybe denying the female influence is part of what's leading to a lot of the secrecy and terrible deeds and deaths?

Most interesting isn't so much WHAT they're all debating about when they talk of heretics and heresies, but rather that they are having the debates at all. They seem so foreign to us, but really, though the themes and the names of the groups have changed, religious groups are still fighting in the same way, 1000 years later. Obviously we don't learn from all of that secret knowledge the monks were trying to protect, as much as we think we do...