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Hello Everyone,

For the week of October 7th - October 13th, we are reading Part Two - Octavian in the West - 40 BC to 39 BC - Sections 6 - 7 of the book Antony and Cleopatra.

The third week's reading assignment is:

Week 3 � October 7th - October 13th
Part Two - Octavian in the West - 40 BC to 39 BC - Sections 6 - 7 - (87-140)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on September 23rd.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up on October 7th.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this discussion and the back-up will be Jill.

Welcome,

Bentley

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS, SELECT VIEW ALL

by Colleen McCullough

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Introduction Thread:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Table of Contents and Syllabus

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc. with proper citations or other books either nonfiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self-promotion, please.

Here is the link:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

by Colleen McCullough

Chapter Overview and Summaries

Part II

Octavian in the West - 40 BC to 39 BC

Section � 6

Octavian is in charge of Italy and has barely enough money to keep it going. He meets with his four closest advisors: Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, utterly loyal to Octavian and possessing numerous abilities, in particular as a general; Gaius Maecenas, an aesthete, but excellent at plotting; Quintus Salvidienus, an excellent soldier (but will he remain loyal?); and Titus Statilius Taurus, another man who’s good on the battlefield. The two current consuls, Pollio and Ventidius, are more or less on Antony’s side, but their legions won’t fight against Octavian’s, and vice versa, all the soldiers being weary of civil war. Sextus Pompey is a problem, because he has control of the seas, hence the grain supply. Octavian can’t fight him on the seas because he has no ships to speak of. He decides the best way to placate Sextus is to marry the daughter of Libo, one of Sextus� generals. Octavian had never consummated his first marriage to Fulvia and Clodius� daughter, and had sent her back to Fulvia. He sends Maecenas off to dicker with Sextus and Libo. He receives word from Gaul that Antony’s general in charge there had died, and his son did not feel up to taking over, so Octavian sends Salvidienus to take over.

Meanwhile, the husband of Octavia, Octavian’s older sister, is on his deathbed, and their mother Atia, who recently married her stepson after his father, her second husband, died, and she’s been dead to Octavian ever since.

Maecenas handles the negotiations with Sextus very well, and Octavian is pleased with his new wife Scribonia, while she learns more about her new husband from his sister, in particular about his asthma.

Section � 7

Antony has attempted to land with two legions at Brundisium, but the town keeps the harbor closed, having an old grudge against Antony. Octavian heads to Brundisium and arranges a conference of sorts with Antony. In fact, each side sends a representative, with Lucius Nerva, a neutral party, as referee. Octavian sends Maecenas and Antony sends Pollio. They each lay out their side’s grievances, then proceed to work out a bargain whereby they split Rome’s territories down the middle, with Illyricum on Octavian’s side (the West) and Macedonia on Antony’s (the East). Octavian and Antony finally meet face to face, and Octavian proposes that Antony marry his sister Octavia as a guarantee of their friendship. Octavian is sure she will pose no problem, as he thinks she’s already half in love with Antony. They agree, and the prospect of another civil war has been averted.

I am glad to be back with Octavian and his entourage, although I can't really warm to him. Caesar was very likeable and we got to know him really well in the previous books. (Actually, it seemed like McCullough was in love with him.) Octavian is a colder character, although he's certainly passionate about Rome. He also seems quite intelligent and has a faculty for finding men who complement his own abilities, like Agrippa and Maecenas.

I had a hard time warming to Octavian as well. While Antony is reckless, selfish and passionate, Octavian is frigid and calculating. While he does seem to care about the people of the Roman Empire, one can't help but wonder if it's only a ruse to advance himself.

Octavia is too perfect to be real. Perhaps that is as she was in life, but it is hard to imagine her as the sister of a man like Octavian. I can't believe she could love Antony, as your summary suggests.

Three comments.

1. This book constantly reminds me of Solomon's wisdom in the Bible that there is "nothing new under the sun," or the adage "the more things change, the more they stay the same."

2. [I hope this is in the right thread] love seeing Cleopatra's son become his own man.

3. Anthony.....

It will be interesting to see if Octavia shows any flaws - she does seem to be perfect so far. And even really good girls love bad boys, as someone else here has suggested.

I really like Maecenas. He seems to be really smart and crafty. And Pollio, Antony's man, also seems smart and reasonable as well.

I can believe Octavia loves Anthony. She seems sort of martyr-wife in personality. Plus he's so masculine and she's so feminine.

You know, I can almost sympathize with Antony - here's this very young weakling, Octavian, preferred by Caesar over himself. A nobody from the country who has made off with Caesar's war chest (although he won't acknowledge it), and is beloved by Caesar's legions. Antony keeps thinking he can prevail over Octavian, but he doesn't have a chance.

Anthony is like many men who've had power and don't realize they've begun the descent into irrelevancy. The younger men are taking over and he's been a bit too relaxed about maintaining his power. He's also too complacent about Cleopatra--the trophy wife. So typical--you still see this today.

I am enjoying how she shows Octavian 'mull' over things. He loves Rome, and I think that is one of the reasons Caesar appointed him heir. As Octavian thinks of a once glorious Rome, he mulls: (p89, my copy) Was it her fault that her temples were decayed, her public buildings grimy, her squares and gardens neglected? No, the fault lay with the men who governed in her name, for they cared more about their reputations than they did about hers, who made them. (sound familiar?).

And then we have him returning from the forum to Agrippa who asks where he has been. He answers "I was planning what to do when I have the money to set Lady Roma to rights".

McCullough does a great job of making us believe this is his actual 'voice'.

He may not be likeable, but he seems to be admirable in some areas. We'll have to see later what lengths he will go to in order to "save Rome." He already seems willing to sacrifice his sister, although she's pretty happy about it.

The trio of Octavian, Agrippa and Maecenas make a formidable group. It seems like there's nothing they can't get done.

I found Scribonia an interesting character. A little older than Octavian and on her 3rd marriage. I didn't think she seemed excited or not about the marriage, except that she was happy Octavian wasn't an old man as she thought her next husband would be. She also seemed to get along with Octavia well and wonder if they will continue to bond throughout the story.

It's too bad we don't know more about the lives of actual Roman women. I guess if they were interesting enough for some man to write about them, they were too notorious to be "good Roman women."

I really wish we could have seen more of Scribonia. She seemed to be a very interesting character and could have been good for Octavian if he had given her a chance. It does perpetuate the stories of him as a bit of a cold fish as far as women go and makes a contrast to his later relationship with Livia Drusilla.