ŷ������

Really interesting points Catherine, thanks for those book suggestions. I often try to read the classics but feel like I miss the point and therefore generally don't enjoy them.

Erica wrote: "Really interesting points Catherine, thanks for those book suggestions. I often try to read the classics but feel like I miss the point and therefore generally don't enjoy them."

Erica, when I read a classic novel I try to buy editions with an introductory essay, so I can get a feel for the book before I read it. Doesn't mean you have to agree slavishly with the person who wrote the introduction but I always find it useful to get a starting perspective. Another book I found helpful was David Lodge's The Art of Fiction - short essays based on a radio show he did in the early 90s, looking at all sorts of different aspects of a novel, like Point of View, Surprise, Time Shift, etc, and using plenty of examples to show what he means.

Thank you for your post, Catherine. Really interesting.

Darkpool (protesting GR censorship) wrote: "Thank you for your post, Catherine. Really interesting."

Thanks! I just feel that if you read literary fiction as if it was commercial fiction, you'll a) find it tough going and b) potentially miss out on a richer experience. Doesn't mean you can't prefer commercial fiction, of course, but commercial and literary fiction are quite different beasties and you'll get more out of both, I believe, if you make that distinction.

Carol wrote: "Jane wrote: Longbourn appears to polarise GR readers, I'll give you that. But don't take my word for it! Give it a go, and as you plan to get it from the library, it won't cost you anything."

I ..."
Hi Carol, Gisborne Library charges $1-2 for all adult fiction. That's probably why I only get out YA books from there because they are free! You just have to be sure that's a book you really want to read so you are wasting your dollars.

Hi Carol, Gisborne Library charges $1-2 for all adult fiction. That's probably why I only get out YA books from there because they are free! You just have to be sure that's a book you really want to read so you are wasting your dollars.

I understand there are commercial realities, but I do have a problem with libraries charging for fiction. My sister & her husband theorise that it is penalising female readers who read more fiction. I only have anecdotal evidence to back that up, but do find it unfair that my husband can go to the library & pick up 2014 sport autobiographies & travel guides (that really is all he reads) but I have to pay for 2014 fiction. I can understand not charging for books used for school assignments,but the stuff my husband reads is strictly lightweight.

SharleneSays wrote: "Carol wrote: "Jane wrote: Longbourn appears to polarise GR readers, I'll give you that. But don't take my word for it! Give it a go, and as you plan to get it from the library, it won't cost you a..."

I reckon that is unfair practice when the people who can join the library are already paying through their rates. Certainly charge for some 'extra' services, but general reading - no way.

Our public library tried that about 10 years ago resulting in ratepayer outrage. There was almost rioting in the streets such was the disapproval of the patrons. Letters to the editor of the local paper, marching on Council, invading Council meetings ....
It lasted around 3 months when everything went back to status quo and has remained that way since.

Catherine wrote: "Darkpool (protesting GR censorship) wrote: "Thank you for your post, Catherine. Really interesting."

Thanks! I just feel that if you read literary fiction as if it was commercial fiction, you'll a..."

That's what we were taught at college, and when reading the old classics, they should be read in the context of the time they were written. This comes back to me when I see people bagging an author because of how women are painted in these books, and attitudes to lower classes of society. That's how it was then! Reading the literary fiction and getting enjoyment from it requires a different approach, as does popular fiction from formulaic. People read for different reasons and so choose different 'grades' of fiction to read.
I agree that some NZ fiction is quite bleak, but there is a great array of wonderful stories written by NZ authors in all categories.

Ella's Gran wrote: That's what we were taught at college, and when reading the old classics, they should be read in the context of the time they were written...People read for different reasons and so choose different 'grades' of fiction to read.

Ella's Gran - completely agree: context is an essential part of any book, including modern books (eg those set in different cultures). And as readers, we are free to read anything we want, but I do believe that the more you can get out of reading, the more fun and satisfying it is! PS: I also completely agree that NZ fiction contains, as you say, 'a wonderful array of stories' in all categories, literary and commercial.

I wonder if one of the reasons some people find NZ fiction bleak is because NZ fiction is frequently historical? I know that's a massive generalisation, but if you're going to set your story in 19th century NZ, you know life will be hard. And it will rain a lot, so mud and misery will be centre stage. ??

Jane wrote: "I wonder if one of the reasons some people find NZ fiction bleak is because NZ fiction is frequently historical? I know that's a massive generalisation, but if you're going to set your story in 19t..."

Jane, I definitely think that's one reason - not easy being a pioneer in rough and unwelcoming terrain where the indigenous people might be trying to kill you! Those themes of physical and cultural isolation, and conflict carry through to modern day fiction (eg Once Were Warriors). For non-bleak historical fiction, I always loved Maurice Shadbolt's trilogy about the Maori Wars - cracking (if brutal) action and black humour. I found them completely gripping.

Jane wrote: "I wonder if one of the reasons some people find NZ fiction bleak is because NZ fiction is frequently historical? I know that's a massive generalisation, but if you're going to set your story in 19t..."

I think you are quite right Jane. The majority of what is termed literary fiction in NZ is set in the 19th Century which was a time of early settlement by people who were largely from the poorer classes looking to make a new life, and hopefully fortune, for themselves. As in today (current politics eg) people used all manner of means to get there - hard toiling was the most prevalent method, but there were plenty who schemed to fleece the toilers too. There was a lot of rain, mud and misery - NZ has a temperate climate.

These are many of the criticisms aimed at The Luminaries - bleak, misery, rain, trudging through mud. For goodness sake it was set on the West Coast which is noted for it's 'rainforest' type climate, and Fulton Hogan hadn't got there yet! At this time most settlements in NZ were largely uncivilised by European standards. It was just a new country by comparison!!

At times I am amazed - at the fact that I continue to be amazed!

Our library charges for new fiction, that's up to a year old or the very popular!!!! It would be nice to organise a riot but no one would. They all pay up like sheep! I volunteer as a book- shelver so get the books first!

Re literary fiction. I told you so!!! I said you'd leap to scream in horror that someone dare to say our literary works can be dull and boring. They are, particularly short stories, and yes, some are not. Look at Katherine Mansfield. Her stories are literary yet not dull!

Come on, be honest, haven't you come across some awful arty-farty, pretentious crap?

And no, it's not historical which makes literary dull. In fact it's poor word choice, lack of emotional engagement by the writer in hir writing, dishonest writing by a writer pretending to be what they are not, poor plotting, and this desperate trying to write the great NZ novel and so straining at gnats.

Catherine, you've missed Walter Allen's 'Writers on Writing' and 'Reading a Novel' and E.M Forster's 'Aspects of the Novel' from your list. Updike is okay but very American in his outlook.

And you seem to be talking about one aspect of literary fiction, experimental literary fiction. Good literary fiction can indeed take a reader on a ride through a story.

And, without trying to sound rude, because I am genuinely not trying to be, does the Listener actually employ reviewers who have not taken at least one class in the art of reviewing literature? After all the Listener claims to be our best source for the arts so I did hope reviews would be written by people who have studied the art of reviewing.

There is also a school of thought which says that trying to define literary fiction is a waste of time. It's just one end of the writing spectrum and pot boilers are at the other end. I wish some of our literati would consider that.

P.d.r. wrote: "Come on, be honest, haven't you come across some awful arty-farty, pretentious crap?..."

Of course. But a) one person's arty-farty could well be another's work of genius and b) there's bad writing everywhere and personally, I don't see the point of focusing on it. I'm much more interested in hearing about what other people enjoy, what they find interesting and challenging. Some bad literary writing doesn't mean it's all bad any more than some bad romance writing means the whole genre is crap.

I do believe we lack ways to recognise the achievements of our commercial writers and promote them more widely, such as through awards. Our literary writers are most definitely better served in this regard. But that's not their fault and I don't believe there's anything to be gained by bagging them. As a commercial writer myself, I'd be better off setting up an award for my fellows, just like the NZ crime writers have, and our romance community. When I find time, I will.

P.d.r. wrote: "Catherine, you've missed Walter Allen's 'Writers on Writing' and 'Reading a Novel' and E.M Forster's 'Aspects of the Novel' from your list. Updike is okay but very American in his outlook.

And you..."

There are plenty of good books on writing and reading out there - I chose to list the ones I liked best.

And I'm not sure where one takes classes in reviewing? I've never seen any. Guy Somerset the Listener's books editor invited me because he knew me as a feature writer as well as a creative writer and believed I could do the job. I also review for New Zealand Books and Harry Ricketts who edits that said the best way to learn how to review was to read work by experienced reviewers whose opinions you respect and whose style you admire. I imagine that if I'd proved crap at it, they'd both have fired me by now!

I'm sure you're not 'crap' at it. I did wonder about qualifications though because some of the reviews have been more of a 'Show Off Me The Great Reviewer' than a decent review. Not yours, I hasten to add, as I haven't seen any of yours.

My UK university for my BA had a class in the art of reviewing, my Canadian uni did too. Post grads were expected to be able to do reviews for the university journals.

Aren't you eligible for the RWNZ awards? I see chick lit mentioned sometimes in the newsletter though currently trends seem to be paranormal and Hot Sex! What sort of award would you set up?

As for the NZ literary scene. If only people wouldn't try so hard and insist that literary is better and different from ‘mere�� writing. A lot of it really is a case of the Emperor's New Clothes, and it does a lot of harm to young writers, who need to find their voice, tone and rhythm, and express it their way, rather than be shoe horned into the Great NZ Literary Mould.

Pdr I never said NZ fiction was dull or boring. I said life in 19th century NZ was bleak and hard, so some of our fiction reflects that - such as The Luminaries, the recent Purgatory and even Rose Tremain's The Colour... An English author, no less!!

Hello Jane, no, it was me said some of (most of!!!) NZ lit fic was dull and boring.

Sorry for the confusion.

Actually I think we tend to look back at hist fic with our modern eyes and think that life was more wretched than it was. For many people in the 19thC - like my father's people or my husband's people - coming to New Zealand meant land, or an opportunity for business or creative activities they couldn’t get in the UK, certainly a better way of life, a place of their own and freedom from a lot of the restrictions their British life had meant for them. I think it is one of the Atkinson women who writes with joy of her freedom to go for walks without chaperones and to be able to cook, bake and garden without social restrictions.

P.d.r. wrote: "If only people wouldn't try so hard and insist that literary is better and different from ‘mere�� writing. A lot of it really is a case of the Emperor's New Clothes, and it does a lot of harm to young writers, who need to find their voice, tone and rhythm, and express it their way, rather than be shoe horned into the Great NZ Literary Mould."

I'm not sure this is as prevalent as you make out. None of the literary writers I know think they are 'better' or that other forms of writing are 'mere'. I was not looked down on by anyone when I went to Frankfurt with the NZ contingent.

I feel calling anyone's writing Emperor's New Clothes is unfair to the writer, who I guarantee has put their heart and soul into the work, just like we all do, and has the very same crises of confidence. What people say about any writer is out of their control - it's not their fault if they're paraded around as the next big thing.

I also disagree that there is a NZ literary mould. There are teachers who have influence, certainly, but not all literary writers learn from the same one. Every young writer I've ever known has been determined to find their own voice and style, and to create something wonderful - and I think it's unfair and untrue to imply that they are robots forced to follow some NZ literary 'formula'. I've read three books from writers who have recently graduated the Institute of Modern Letters (was Bill Manhire, now Damian Wilkins) and they were all utterly different in tone, voice and form.

I've said my piece now and won't comment again. I believe in being an advocate for all NZ writing, in all genres, traditionally- and self-published. There's so much good writing out there, and I feel the more positive and inclusive a climate we can create, the more every NZ writer will benefit.

As to what award? No idea yet, but I will work on it!

Catherine wrote: "P.d.r. wrote: "Come on, be honest, haven't you come across some awful arty-farty, pretentious crap?..."

Of course. But a) one person's arty-farty could well be another's work of genius and b) ther..."

I'm not a FB fan of the lazy 'like' button, but it's times like this I do wish we had a 'like' button here rather than re-hash what has already been said when I totally agree with your views.

P.d.r. wrote: "Hello Jane, no, it was me said some of (most of!!!) NZ lit fic was dull and boring.

Sorry for the confusion.

Actually I think we tend to look back at hist fic with our modern eyes and think that ..."

None of my ancestors that came here from the 'old country' were in the practice of walking with their chaperones, having someone cook and clean for them. They had to tend their own gardens if they were fortunate enough to have one. Had they had all of those luxuries the Atkinson women were used to, I'm sure they would have been joyful too. However, their lives here were a continuation of the hard graft they had left, but under harsher conditions until they were established - some 10-15 years after arrival before they 'owned' anything. They were tempted by the talk of land ownership, easy life, jobs for all, plentiful food and freedom - largely they were sold a crock because Britain wanted rid of them and they had already tried transportation.

I'm sorry if you guys have moved on to a different topic but I'm outraged to hear that a community public library is charging for basic adult fiction books! Cds and Dvds and brand new bestsellers I can understand but general fiction...what a shame! I like the idea, like in the story Matilda by Roald Dahl that the library is a place where anyone no matter how rich or poor can go to the library and experience the wonder of reading for free.

Hear, hear, Erica. Free libraries for all!

Let's let ruffled feathers settle down and talk about what we've been reading.

In the last few days I've galloped through:
One of Anne Perry's Monk series, one of Jonathon Gash's Lovejoy series, Bleak House, The Sagas of Noggin the Nog, The Trooper's Tale and Much Ado About Nothing having just seen the Thompson/Brannan film and wanted to check up on what they missed.

You said:
They were tempted by the talk of land ownership, easy life, jobs for all, plentiful food and freedom - largely they were sold a crock because Britain wanted rid of them and they had already tried transportation.

Want to start a thread where we can look at sources and documents for this, Lesley? It's of interest to me - I feel a novel coming on!

I do not doubt life was hard for the first settlers. Certainly those in family groups had a better time with more hands to help with work. Also those who prepared before they came and brought seeds etc were better able to get on.

Isolation was a killer. Lack of knowledge was a killer and enthusiasm could not make up for this lack.

Was Britain getting rid of the unemployed poor? Or who?

I'm currently reading by Charles Belfoure. Set in France during the Nazi occupation, an architect, who has no sympathies towards the Jews, is employed by a wealthy industrialist to design hideouts within existing buildings. In fact he, the architect, is quite despicable to begin with, and only concerned in making as much money as possible. It's quite a compelling story, well written, and very much a page turner.

Reading Wake by Anna Hope. Set in 1920, post war London. Am actually enjoying it so far. Have just met the 1st of the 3 main female characters who will eventually be tied together by war time loss tragedy and a mystery.

Sorry folks, I cannot do the book links. Can someone explain in simple words how to do it?

P.d.r. wrote: "Reading Wake by Anna Hope. Set in 1920, post war London. Am actually enjoying it so far. Have just met the 1st of the 3 main female characters who will eventually be tied together by war time loss ..."

Here you go.
Click on the "add book/author link above the text box which you're typing in for the discussion.

�� Notice a search box or “look-up�� opens up and at the bottom the words

add: �� link 〇cover

The little blue dot is will always first default to link unless you click on cover.

�� Type in the title you of the book you desire, and click "search".

�� Click on the "add" button next to the option you want to include and the html for the cover will appear in your text box.

�� Make sure that "cover" is chosen before you click the big “search�� button, but if you forget, you can always put your cursor after the word “book�� and before the colon: in the link, type in "cover" and the bookcover will appear.

I'll put an asterisk* in the code so you can see the book numbers are the same:

[*book:Through a Dark Mist|7776013]
[*bookcover:Through a Dark Mist|7776013]
Results :

Through a Dark Mist = link

Through a Dark Mist by Marsha Canham = bookcover link

�� If the bookcover that appears is not the one you want, simply click on "other editions" right under the add button. Page numbers are at the bottom of the "look-up". Browse until you find the cover you desire.

�� Do a preview, if you like. Just click (preview) in parentheses in light grey to the right of the big post button.

Hope this helps!

Lesley

OK, I'm just trying this out! This is a writer I enjoyed when I was younger. I read Nine Coaches waiting a few months ago, but so far this book is much better.

I'm still reading the Koestler biography of Georgette Heyer. I'm rereading GH's books & I have to keep stopping when I get up to them as Koestler has let a couple of plot developments slip.

Wake: A NovelOo-er! Thank you, I think, Lesley. I will try it but expect hilarities.

'This Rough Magic' has always been my favourite Mary Stewart. Though 'Touch Not the Cat' comes close.

Tell me more about this bio of GH. I can't see him writing one or is it another Koestler?

Oo-er, thank you, I think, Lesley. I tried it out and lost the entire post. Twice!

Carol is the Koestler bio by the Koestler? Seems odd.

And my favourite Mary Stweart is 'This Rough Magic' next to 'Touch Not the Cat'. She did so well as a writer because all of a sudden the sexual revolution hit books and her novels bcame old fashioned an dtoo polite and middle class and not sexy enough but she had the talent and brains to start that long Authruian series.

experiment.

Third time lucky!!!! Got it. Give this novel a read, Lesley I think you will enjoy it. Ditto to Angie and Kathleen.

P.d.r. wrote: "experiment.

Third time lucky!!!! Got it. Give this novel a read, Lesley I think you will enjoy it. Ditto to Angie and Kathleen."

Yaaay you got it. ★★★★

I loved the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Society, so you're right, I probably will like this. I check the library.

Georgette Heyer

This is the one. I had the author's last name wrong.Sorry if I was unclear. :)

Much tougher than Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Society, Lesley but honest writing and easy to feel for the characters.

Ah, thank you. I flipped across for a quick look and was amused by the reviews. All those people pontificating about how nasty Heyer was etc. and with a total lack of understanding of her life in her time but judging it from today's POV. Tut! Also a lot of American POVs with no understanding of the British Class system or how it affected Heyer and her life.

As Heyer was one who obliterated her personal life I do chuckle at people trying to judge her from business letters!

I can't find my copies but I have them all. They were the nearest I got to being allowed to read romance.

Those were the days! Nice and simple.

Was Stewart one of the authors serialised in the Ladies (or Women's) Home Journal. I have a feeling that she may have been one of the authors (like Heyer) I originally read like that. My aunt used to subscribe.

***Carol*** wrote: "Was Stewart one of the authors serialised in the Ladies (or Women's) Home Journal. I have a feeling that she may have been one of the authors (like Heyer) I originally read like that. My aunt used ..."

It was in the English Woman's Weekly that I first read her stories, romances mostly I recall. They also did others too, some of whom became noted 'hardback' authors, and others that were regular Mills & Boon published.

I'm still going with The Goldfinch, I've sort of lost motivation for the last 100ish pages. Trucking along though. As that book is too large and heavy to take on my commute to work I'm also reading Cokraco which I was sent randomly. I'm not too in to it, I'm finding it's layout and style a bit to stop-start for me, can't get into a rhythm. Although the plot itself is pretty thin that isn't compelling me to read either. Looking forward to reading Tizzie when it arrives!

Oh memories play tricks. I was sure Mary Stewart, like Georgette Heyer, was serialised in the Ladies Home Journal.

Erica wrote: "I'm still going with The Goldfinch, I've sort of lost motivation for the last 100ish pages. Trucking along though. ..."

I had a love hate thing with Tartt's The Secret History. Was worth it in the end.

I'm reading One of the best openings I've ever read in a thriller! Pacing slightly off in the middle of the book, but it looks like Symons is going to tie it all up very well!

Did Mary Stewart write the Merlin series? They were a particular favourite in my early teens

P.d.r. wrote: "Oh memories play tricks. I was sure Mary Stewart, like Georgette Heyer, was serialised in the Ladies Home Journal."



According to the above blog at least some of Stewart's were in the ladies Home Journal. She may have used different magazines for different books though.

Yes, I thought so. It was a snob thing. Ladies Home Journal would never serialise romance like Mills and Boons for its quality readers! Its readers did not read romance, but they did read Heyer and Stewart which were not romance a la Mills and Boon!

And yes, Jane, when Stewart's romantic adventures were regarded as old fashioned she managed a miracle and changed her whole writing style and genre to the Arthur/Merlin series.

Because it is the 75th year since the release of the 1939 film version of The Wizard of Oz, I have been reading and discussing the story.

Did you know following the success of Broadway musical in 1902 of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Baum wrote a further 13 books on Oz. They are available on kindle

Here's another did you know - Dorothy's shoes she inherited from her house landing on and killing the Wicked Witch of the East were originally silver.
They didn't become ruby slippers until the 1939 movie. The colour was changed because red showed up better in technicolor than did silver.

Kathleen wrote: "Ella's Gran wrote: "Because it is the 75th year since the release of the 1939 film version of The Wizard of Oz, I have been reading and discussing the story.

Did you know following the success of..."

I've only re-read the 'real' story yet, and none of the follow ups. I'll let you know what I think of them when I do. It only cost me 88 cents so it won't be a big loss!

Nuthin' worse than hack writing. Spoils a good story.

Funny about the shoes, ruby shoes are so much more dramatic. Don't know that we'd remember silver shoes.

I'm currently reading and finding it very fascinating. I like Emily Perkins's style of writing having read last year.