Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Here's what Hemingway wrote about West With The Night:

"Did you read Beryl Markham's book, "West with the Night"? I knew her fairly well in Africa and never would have suspected that she could and would put pen to paper except to write in her flyer's log book. As it is, she has written so well, and marvelously well, that I was completely ashamed of myself as a writer. I felt that I was simply a carpenter with words, picking up whatever was furnished on the job and some times making an okay pig pen. But this girl who is, to my knowledge, very unpleasant,... can write rings around all of us who consider ourselves as writers. The only parts of it that I know about personally, on account of having been there at the time and heard the other people's stories, are absolutely true. So, you have to take as truth the early stuff about when she was a child which is absolutely superb. She omits some very fantastic stuff which I know about which would destroy much of the character of the heroine; but what is that anyhow in writing? I wish you would get it and read it because it is really a bloody, wonderful book."

We'll start discussions for each section on the dates below:

October 4: Book 1, ch. 1 - 4
October 11: Book 2, ch. 5 - 10
October 18: ch. 11- 14
October 25: ch. 15-24

Excellent Amy. Thanks for putting this up. :-)

Very high praise from a master of writing! I have the book on hold at the library. Hope I don't have to wait too long for it.

Amy wrote: "Here's what Hemingway wrote about West With The Night:

"Did you read Beryl Markham's book, "West with the Night"? I knew her fairly well in Africa and never would have suspected that she could and..."

Oh man, I am excited to read this book even if Hemingway did recommend it. I am not a fan of the man. Nor the writer :) Who is he to call someone "unpleasant?" Sheesh.

I just finished this one. Looking forward to the discussion.

Started this last night and I'm really enjoying it. She writes really well. My copy of this book is also called "The Illustrated West With The Night" and has lots of great photos in it.

So far I like her writing style better than Karen's style in Out of Africa, yet Out of Africa is the more popular book (honestly, I had never heard of this book before it was suggested for reading here). I wonder why?

Sheila wrote: "Started this last night and I'm really enjoying it. She writes really well. My copy of this book is also called "The Illustrated West With The Night" and has lots of great photos in it.

So far I like her writing style better than Karen's style in Out of Africa, yet Out of Africa is the more popular book (honestly, I had never heard of this book before it was suggested for reading here). I wonder why? ..."

I was wishing I had an illustrated edition, the story begs for photographs.

I read Out of Africa a few years ago, and while I loved the prose, it was eventually dissatisfying for me. It seemed very self and British focussed, and I think I was hoping for more Africa and less Isak.

On the other hand, West with the Night was recommended to me because someone said it was much better than Out of Africa, so it has been sitting on a stack of books in my queue, I just needed a good excuse to read it. I'm very happy this group has chosen it to follow up Out of Africa.

And right from the get-go, it feels like Beryl Markham has a better feel for, and experience of, Africa itself (maybe because she was born there?). I'm looking forward to this read.

I started this last night and read nearly 40% of it in a single sitting. It drew me right in. It does not have the patronizing feel of Denisin, probably because she grew up there and so does not have the same European perspective.

I finished this one last night. Beryl is the far better writer and more interesting person.

This is my second time reading this book. It's been in my top ten favorites since I first read it 30 years ago. Quick plug: if you like this book you will also like Circling The Sun (next month's group read).

Beryl opens the book with the question:
"How is it possible to create order out of memory?"

Why do you suppose she began her memoir with this question? What does it convey about her or the contents of the book?

Thank you for recommending this book, Amy! As good as it is, I am very much looking forward to Circling the Sun next!

As to the opening quote, honestly that quote makes me think more of Out of Africa than this book, as Karen did a very poor job of creating order out of her memories! :-)

For Beryl, is seems as though she may be letting us know that this book may not be in perfect order, as memories are funny like that, and looking back on events, memories are often selective.

Amy wrote: "Beryl opens the book with the question:
"How is it possible to create order out of memory?"

Why do you suppose she began her memoir with this question? What does it convey about her or the content..."

It seems like just the sort of thing you would ask yourself if you had many stories to share and simply did not know where to begin... it was a little like she had a map and closed her eyes and landed a finger on some random spot on the map, and that's where to begin. She transitioned nicely from that first introduction to Africa to the story of her childhood (which is next week's section).

Sheila - it made me think of Out of Africa, also. Karen's writing was very poetic, but to me it felt more stream-of-conscious than a story. The plot didn't really build.

Janice - I agree with this, also! Beryl is a fascinating woman with some great stories, and she tried to pull them together cohesively once she selected a random starting point.

I think it also conveys her wandering spirit: anywhere is a good place to begin a story.

Any other ideas on why Beryl chose this question to open her memoir?

I think that initial question gets to the heart of memoir. This is not autobiography, but memoir. This is a collection of memories that, in Beryl's opinion, conveyed the essence of her life. There is much we do not learn about her that might seem important. We never learn of her mother's death, the day-to-day life of her childhood and teen years, her romantic interests and so much more. We are so much more than the chronology of minutes and hours. Meaning travels backward and forward. There are key events that give perspective. In starting at a midpoint in her life, I think she helps to anchor the story, to say to the reader, "Here is a hook upon which to hang the stories that will follow, a way to understand the meaning of the other tales I wil tell you".

Excellent description, Irene!

Irene wrote: "I think that initial question gets to the heart of memoir. This is not autobiography, but memoir. This is a collection of memories that, in Beryl's opinion, conveyed the essence of her life. The..."

I love the way you make a distinction between memoir and autobiography. I agree it's what Beryl wanted us to understand.

FYI - we do learn more about what happened to Beryl's mother in Circling The Sun (which is historical fiction, but includes many details from Beryl's biography). The fact that she's not included in these stories does tell us about Beryl's memories of her.

Not only does it tell us what Beryl remembers of her mother, but the meaning her mother had in shaping her self-understanding. I know people who have been seperated from a parent early in life, either by death or abandoment and that absent parent dominates their life story.

Does Beryl fit your idea of a typical woman in the early 20th century? If you read Out of Africa (or saw the movie), in what ways is she similar to/ different from Karen?

Really nice explanation, Irene. I like the separation of journal vs. memoir, and agree that already this feels so different than the previous novel. Even though it is still a collection of memories that aren't necessarily sequential, it seems as though Markham gives us a more thorough understanding of life in Africa. Perhaps that is because she grew up there instead of moving there as an adult.

I think that Beryl gives us a better understanding of her life which was in Africa than Karin does. I think I got more information about native attitudes and celebrations in Karin's book. Karin is the outsider fascinated by what she encounters in the native population where Beryl seems to take much of that for granted.

I loved the section where she gives voice to the horse. I thought the writing was beautiful and it let us know Beryl a little deeper as she dives into the inner thoughts of Camciscan.

What were your thoughts about Beryl's encounter with Paddy (the lion who attacked her)? Did it appear strange that someone would keep a lion as a pet?

Unusual, but not overly strange. But, then, I grew up with Born Free.

I did not find it strange that a non African in Africa would try to keep a lion as a pet. In Out of Africa Karen kept that little deer (can't remember its name) as a pet. Keeping wild animals as pets was probably common. The adults did seem to know that the lion could be dangerous though, as the servant followed Beryl knowing she could be in danger, and the lion's owner carried a whip to try to beat off the lion, and even he had to climb a tree to escape. I was a bit surprised that given how easily the lions were killed in Out Of Africa that they didn't just shoot Paddy after he attacked her and chased his owner.

My thought after finishing this section about Camcisan is that this is an entirely different book than Out of Africa... and almost an entirely different Africa. Certainly these two women are extremely different from each other, tho' they do seem to share a kind of independent core strength, which is what it might take to be a foreign woman living in Africa. Of the two, right now I think I would rather have dinner with Beryl than with Isek.

What's very interesting to me now, is that both these women shared the same lover. This is a quote from an article on Markham and the threesome

" It is little known that when Finch Hatton died tragically, in 1931, at age 44—plummeting to earth in his de Havilland Gipsy Moth like Icarus spinning away from the sun—he was estranged from Blixen and very much involved with Markham. Neither woman so much as hints at the triangle in her memoir, nor does either intimate that on separate occasions each believed herself pregnant with Finch Hatton's child."

Here is the full article:


I agree Daniale, Beryl's use of the horse's voice was very nice.

I am finished with the book, so I know that not everyone has gotten to what I am about to post (don't worry, no spoiler in it), but what really surprised me was that Karin's husband is pretty much absent from her memoir, but fairly significant in Beryl's memoir.

Irene wrote: "I am finished with the book, so I know that not everyone has gotten to what I am about to post (don't worry, no spoiler in it), but what really surprised me was that Karin's husband is pretty much ..."

Yes! And although neither Beryl nor Karen mention Denys Finch-Hatten, they were both involved with him (and that is explored more in Circling The Sun).

Beryl did a lot of "firsts" for women (training race horses, flying across the Atlantic). Do you think that growing up in Africa caused her to take more risks or gave her confidence?

Amy wrote: "Beryl did a lot of "firsts" for women (training race horses, flying across the Atlantic). Do you think that growing up in Africa caused her to take more risks or gave her confidence?..."

I think growing up as the only white child in that section of Africa, along with being motherless, and on a ranch rather than in a city, with a busy father, were all ingredients for nurturing an adventurous and independent child. I thought it was amazing that she went boar hunting with her male friends while the tribal women stayed home because they were considered too weak to hunt.

She apparently didn't have any rules or guidelines about how a white female was supposed to behave, and was allowed to do what she chose without much consequence it seems. That sort of life could instill a lot of confidence.

Janice George, I agree that it was the combination of the parenting of her father along with the lack of social limitation that nurtured her independant spirit and freedom from gender specific constraints. Other European families living in Africa did not raise a daughter who embraced Beryl's choices. I suspect we are all combinations of nature (innate personality) and nurture (the way we are raised).

In this week's reading Beryl began training horses and brought a mare from injury to victory (Wise Child). She also had a strong relationship with her dog Buller who fought a leopard and nearly killed it. In what ways do you think these animals were similar to Beryl?

Beryl seems to have a strong affinity for animals, or at least for her dog and horses. The horse persevered, even with weak tendons, didn't let the male horse trying to gain on her win, and gave it her all. I think this is similar to the attitude that Beryl would like us to see she herself having.

Amy wrote: "In this week's reading Beryl began training horses and brought a mare from injury to victory (Wise Child). She also had a strong relationship with her dog Buller who fought a leopard and nearly kil..."

Her story about the mare practically had a Hollywood ending, but I was glad about the way it ended anyway. What is starting to get under my skin, tho', are the references to the wild animal hunts, ie over 200 elephants (tusks or kills?), lions, tigers, etc. It's a grim reminder that these are the folks whose hunting legacy in Africa has left us with so many endangered species.

I was also horrified and disgusted by the slaughter of such noble creatures for entertainment.

While I don't like the slaughter that went on at this time, I wasn't horrified because it was very much of the time period, and really something that defines the period.

I enjoyed the way the novel is written, and the way the Markham describes her life. I also liked that she was an independent, strong woman in a time when that wasn't really valued. Towards the end, though, I thought that it sort of dragged, similarly to Out of Africa, and I was glad to see it done.

The end did not drag for me. I find that when I read a book rather quickly, I less often get that feeling of it dragging. When I read over a longer period of time, limiting my pace to a larger group schedule, I tend to get bored and have that feeling that the book is dragging. I suspect I have a short attention span.

Daniale wrote: "Towards the end, though, I thought that it sort of dragged, similarly to Out of Africa, and I was glad to see it done..."

I'm on the last leg, and I've noticed that the writing style is growing a little thin for me, and it doesn't feel quite as interesting. But, this might be in contrast to a really great recounting of her childhood at the beginning of the book.

What did you think of her flight across the Atlantic? She acts very casual about accepting the challenge - do you think she was really that flippant at the time? Or is she simply recalling it as less of a big deal after the fact?

She seems to recount many of her accomplishments with little fanfair, little of the sense of the heroic or sense of fear or anxiety surrounding it.

She does seem very nonchalant about flying across the Atlantic, and even about crashing her plane in a bog. I'm not sure why she would down play this accomplishment, unless maybe she felt she didn't succeed because she did crash short of where she intended to land, even though she did make it across the Atlantic.

I just got this one from the library. Obviously, I've missed out on discussion for this month, but have been interested in reading the comments from others. I have Circling the Sun on hold, so maybe I will get it before the end of next month!

Awesome, Patricia! Hope you can join us for Circling the Sun.

I've read about a third of it now, & am enjoying it. I believe I actually owned this at one time, but never read it. Glad to get the encouragement from this group; even if I am behind! I'm behind on New York, too, but since I own it, I've been letting it slide in favor of library books that have to be returned.

I finished this last night & thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm glad I read it before Circling the Sun, though. Several mentioned being disturbed about the section on elephant hunting. I think that bothered me only because I recently read Elephant Company: The Inspiring Story of an Unlikely Hero and the Animals Who Helped Him Save Lives in World War II (which I highly recommend). In that book, elephants are certainly more respected; as much as Beryl respected horses. It's obvious she looked on those two different animals in completely different ways, but it was part of the culture she grew up in. Sometimes the only way we can see how our culture effects us is to live outside of it in some way.

Patricia wrote: "I finished this last night & thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm glad I read it before Circling the Sun, though. Several mentioned being disturbed about the section on elephant hunting. I think that bothere..."

That's a great point, Patricia! We're not objective about a culture's impact upon us while we're still inside of it.

Thanks for your comments :)

Jumping into this discussion considerably late. The book was too good to not discuss, even if much belated.

I appreciated the randomness of her starting point for the book. What a great example of pointing out that a memoir needn't begin at the very beginning.

There were many Indian and Muslim references that surprised me. was anyone else surprised those cultural influences were present in Africa in that era?

Did not enjoy the revelations about hunting bull elephants, where the largest was sought and none other. Even though she disagreed with caging animals for their lifetime, perhaps her view of the elephants had more to do with being her source of income at the time. I noticed an appropriate age-related tone in her stories ranging from her childhood to adult.

Almost every story in the book was about her relationship or encounters with animals, wild or not. During her childhood, they seemed to fill a void for her that a human could not.

Thanks for jumping in and commenting Shirley!
It was interesting to see how multi-cultural Africa was during that era.
And I agree it is sad that they sought out the largest bulls for hunting, but I suppose it is no different from the "trophy" hunting that still goes on today. :-(