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Hi everyone
I am not sure how much people are going to comment and how frequently, so how about we take it from the start of chapter 2 (no spoiler tags needed for chapters 2 and 3) but then we do put on spoiler tags if we refer to anything after chapter 3, to facilitate people being able to comment as they go along while the reading is still fresh in their minds.

One of the things that I have noticed up to chapter 2-3-ish, is that in the first chapter, K. was sort of quiet and accepting, but in chapter 2, he starts to become rather stroppy and assertive.

In chapter 1, I had thought he seems over-awed and lost, but as chapter 2 starts, he seems to want to assert some control of his own. Looking just at the end of chapter 1 and the start of chptr 2, what did you make of the weirdness with his 2 assistants?

Firstly, that the assistants seem exactly alike, and that they claim to be his assistants; yet are unknown to him - and most surprising, that he accepts their claim to be his old assistants!

Secondly, that K. almost seems to treat them a bit unfairly? He seems to be getting a bit irritated with his situation in general, and frankly, I suppose one can't really blame him too much.

If you'd read some of the material on the book in the intro to some of the editions, you would have seen mention that the book is partly about bureaucracy and the power play that takes place within and around bureaucracies. I think there's much more to the book, but on that point alone, we have already seen a lot of evidence, haven't we?

It seems that in this community around the castle, there's an entire pecking order, which K., as an outsider, still has to suss out.

But K. himself is also trying to assert a sort of bureaucratic power of his own onto the assistants, and I think the fact that he's making them exactly alike in his eyes, is sort of characteristic of the facelessness that the public has in the eyes of bureaucrats, but there may be more to it. What do you think?

Hmmm...so far it reads like a dream to me. Things seem kind of weird or random in a dreamlike way, and patched together, and to convey an emotion rather than a coherent story that makes sense.

For me I get the feeling that he doesn't belong or doesn't feel he belongs. (I've just read Chap. 1 so far).

I'd have to read it again to show exactly what I mean but that's what I'm thinking so far.

Also, when he said he was the surveyor in the beginning I didn't believe him. I thought he was making it up so he wouldn't be thrown out. Again, it felt like something that just happens in a dream. "But, I'm the surveyor!" "Oh, ok, you're the surveyor. Then I guess you can stay." Those two guys all of a sudden claiming they are the assistants felt the same to me.

Michele wrote: "Hmmm...so far it reads like a dream to me. Things seem kind of weird or random in a dreamlike way, and patched together, and to convey an emotion rather than a coherent story that makes sense.

For..."

Indeed! Surrealism of course will appear 'dreamlike', and it is for this quality in his work that Kafka is famous.
After all, "Kafkaesque" (named after the qualities of Kafka's work) is a word, that various dictionaries describe as follows:

: of, relating to, or suggestive of Franz Kafka or his writings; especially : having a nightmarishly complex, bizarre, or illogical quality
and
:Marked by a senseless, disorienting, often menacing complexity.
and
: Marked by surreal distortion and often a sense of impending danger: "Kafkaesque fantasies of the impassive interrogation, the false trial, the confiscated passport ... haunt his innocence"
and
: used to describe a situation that is confusing and frightening, especially one involving complicated official rules and systems that do not seem to make any sense.

Get the idea? You have nailed what it means to be Kafkaesque! :)

In the first chapter things did not seem very dreamlike or surreal to me yet - and especially not by the standards of some of Kafka's other works, except for the fact that no road seems to actually lead to the castle.
K. spent the entire day trying to get to it, but instead, exhausted, by evening he's right back at square one where he had started! (Now there's already an example of an ellipse for you, btw.)

I did find the visit at the Tanner's house rather interesting- I think our curiosity is purposely piqued about the refined-seeming breastfeeding woman - it definitely made me sit up and take notice when K. was promptly frogmarched out of the house when he dared to address her! ...and I've been wondering ever since what the story around her is - if she is, as claimed, from the castle, then why is she here, and why are the peasants so very protective of her?

...but where it really does start to get weird for me, is when we find out that the two fast-walking men whom K. did not recognize at all, announce themselves to be his "old" assistants.

Things with regard to his "old" assistants become even weirder as it progresses, like for example where K. pretends to be his own assistant on the phone (he obviously does this to blow up his own importance - as if he is too important to make a call himself- he wants to show that he can delegate to an assistant) and then things just become weirder in the conversation that ensues. (the whole thing around the old assistant and new assistant and wrangling about K's identity.)

I'll say more about that soon, but what do the rest of you make of things so far? Did you also feel there is a sort of power play taking place between the villagers, between those from the castle (because you get to find out that the count most definitely delegates to those around him who are seen by the villagers as being "of the castle", and between K. as the "outsider"?

Also interesting, is how K., since the villagers keep rejecting him, and since "the castle" also makes it quite clear that K. is an outsider, shows a need to belong by trying to create his own little community with his assistants: ‘You may not speak to anyone without my permission. I’m a stranger here, and if you’re my old assistants then you are strangers here too. So we three strangers must stick together. Let’s shake hands on it.��

Before the assistants arrived, K. kept trying to make friends, kept trying to chat to people and engage them - the schoolmaster, for example, and the villagers in the cottage. However, they kept rejecting him, keeping the boundaries clear: he is an a outsider, and they appear to want to keep it that way.

So we have picked up on quite a few themes already;
1) Bureaucracy and the power-play that often arises along with a bureaucracy, including the scratching out of a pecking-order.

2) The issue of "otherness". Is K. inherently "other" or different to a) the villagers and/or b) the denizens of the castle (whose existence is as yet still rather mysterious), or is he simply just artificially being kept 'alien' because of the rejection and the attitudes of the denizens of both the castle and the village?

Theme 2) links in with theme 3), being an examination of the idea and nature of identity. We are alerted to this by various cues; like Michele mentioned, the question at the very start, of K.'s identity - you wondered if he was simply making up his identity to be allowed to sleep there. There are several more instances where identity comes up, but the biggest and most unusual instance turns around the assistants - besides that we have only their word as to their identity as the "old" assistants, K. is unable to assign a unique identity to each of them, and simply sees them as a generic whole. He gives them a single name, and insists that they share responsibility.

This brings up a whole lot of interesting questions about identity; what is identity exactly? Is it something we can give ourselves, or is it something that others bestow upon us, and if it is both, to which extent?

There are more questions about identity and more themes touched on in what we have read so far, but since I don't want this turning into a monologue, I will cede the floor to any members whom might be interested in engaging with us here and with this interesting and challenging work by Franz Kafka. :)

How do you feel about what I have said, and would you like to add to/counter any of it?

I agree with all of it. At this point (into chap. 2) I am so distracted by the dreamlike qualities it's hard for me to see the "screen" story, as Freud might say.

For instance, how many times when you are describing a dream or listening to one described do you say things like, well, there were two different assistants, but they had the same face? That is such a dream thing!

And yes, I totally forgot how wherever he goes he can't get near the castle. That is SUCH a dream thing.

When I read this I feel like I am back reading The Interpretation of Dreams, and the next section is going to be Freud telling me what Kafka's dream means.

The telephone is dreamlike too. Oh, Ping! all of a sudden there is a telephone....near a castle???.... Oh, and, when he picks it up it makes weird noises.

I can easily see how there is a bureaucratic storyline but the dream stuff is so in my face I can't really read it at that level.

Come to think of it, bureaucracy is like walking around in a dream. Because you do have all these things happen to you. You go around in circles. Nothing seems to make sense. It seems impossible to just get something achieved by taking a rational approach. My last visit to the DMV had all of these qualities.

I keep having the impulse to analyze old Franz's dream instead of even pay attention to the story.

Good find on the ellipse. Totally an ellipse! Now that you point it out, the ellipses are everywhere because circularity is such a dreamlike quality.

It was so long ago that I read The Metamorphosis. I remember it being more of a straightforward story. Was that just because I was only a teenager. Was it like this?

Too long since I read The Castle (though I plan to again in a couple of weeks), but some fascinating points above, and I have no fear of spoilers.

Michele wrote: "It was so long ago that I read The Metamorphosis. I remember it being more of a straightforward story. Was that just because I was only a teenager. Was it like this?"

That I have read more recently and no, it's not as dream-like. The situation is surreal, but only a single aspect of it is: Gregor waking as an insect, with no explanation ever given. The rest of it is relatively straightforward. The Castle never gets as surreal as that, but there is a constant feeling of things not being quite right.

Cecily wrote: "Too long since I read The Castle (though I plan to again in a couple of weeks), but some fascinating points above, and I have no fear of spoilers.

Michele wrote: "It was so long ago that I read Th..."

Hi Cecily! Thanks for looking in. :)
When you do get to it, I certainly hope you'll pop in on the discussion!

A note on authority. Authority is maybe the biggest psychological issue in any bureaucracy. I would argue it is the biggest.

Anyway, I noted that when he ended up at the same Inn as his superior that he had to leave. And the endnotes in my version say the name Klamm probably refers to Klam or "illusion." Authority in a bureaucratic context is almost purely illusory. People have authority because of title, not because of any legitimate authority.

I'm wondering if the castle is the primary authority figure, the parents, the state, etc. Unattainable. Making one feel as if he does not belong.

Michele wrote: "A note on authority. Authority is maybe the biggest psychological issue in any bureaucracy. I would argue it is the biggest.

Anyway, I noted that when he ended up at the same Inn as his superior t..."

Michele wrote: "A note on authority. Authority is maybe the biggest psychological issue in any bureaucracy. I would argue it is the biggest.

Anyway, I noted that when he ended up at the same Inn as his superior t..."

A bureaucratic structure can present itself as very impersonal, yes, isn't that so. Let's look, as we read, how these issues around authority manifest in the text of the novel. Certainly, up to now, it fit in with I had called "the pecking order" being of course, the hierarchy of authority to be found in most bureaucracies.

All this talk of bureaucracy made me look it up and a few dictionary definitions of it go:
:a system of government in which most of the important decisions are made by state officials rather than by elected representatives.
and
:a body of nonelective government officials b : an administrative policy-making group. 2 : government characterized by specialization of functions, adherence to fixed rules, and a hierarchy of authority.

..and look what I found on Wikipedia!
A bureaucracy (/bjuːˈrɒkrəsi/) is "a body of non-elective government officials" and/or "an administrative policy-making group". Historically, bureaucracy was government administration managed by departments staffed with nonelected officials. Today, bureaucracy is the administrative system governing any large institution.

Since being coined, the word "bureaucracy" has developed negative connotations. Bureaucracies have been criticized as being too complex, inefficient, or too inflexible. The dehumanizing effects of excessive bureaucracy became a major theme in the work of Franz Kafka, and were central to his novels, The Castle and The Trial. The elimination of unnecessary bureaucracy is a key concept in modern managerial theory and has been an issue in some political campaigns.

Michele wrote: "Anyway, I noted that when he ended up at the same Inn as his superior that he had to leave..."
Which part is that, Michele? (Please don't forget to use spoiler tags for anything after chapter 3, btw.)

What do you guys think of K.'s interpretation of the letter that Barnabas brings him close to the start of chapter 2 - and of the decision he makes accordingly, and the reasoning behind it?

I'm referring to the situation around:
Undoubtedly these were contradictions, so obvious they must be intentional. The thought—a crazy one in the case of such authorities—that indecision might have played a role here, scarcely occurred to K.

He saw it more as a choice that had been freely offered him, it had been left up to him to decide what he wanted to make of the provisions in the letter, whether he wanted to be a village worker with a distinctive but merely apparent connection to the Castle, or an apparent village worker who in reality allowed the messages brought by Barnabas to define the terms of his position.

Michele wrote: "Anyway, I noted that when he ended up at the same Inn as his superior that he had to leave..."
Which part is that, Michele?

It's at the end of Chapter 2.