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THE DISCUSSION IS OPEN - WEEK NINE - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: UNREASONABLE MEN - June 6th - June 12th - Chapter Nine - The Progressive - (pages 203 - 224) - No Spoilers, please
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Chapter Nine - The Progressive - (pages 203 - 224)
This is a non spoiler thread. For the Week Nine assignment - we are reading Chapter Nine - The Progressive which begins on page 203 and runs through page 224.
Therefore, you may discuss any element or quote, event or person or anything else dealing with Chapter Nine and pages 203 though 224. You may also discuss anything that came before in the book - so the Preface through page 224 are the only pages that can be discussed here. Try to read with the group so that you are NOT posting any spoilers.
We do have spoiler threads where you can post anything - glossary, bibliography threads, the introduction and Book as a Whole thread.
But the weekly threads are non spoiler.
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It's interesting to me to look at examples such as LaFollette's speech in this chapter, or Nixon's performance in the 1960 television debate, and how they helped to shape our modern campaign process. Campaigns hire image consultants, and go to great lengths to control their candidates, for fear of stumbling in the way these two men did. LaFollette would not have been allowed to give that speech today; tired, anxious, neurotic, it was a recipe for disaster. He singlehandedly snuffed out what little chance he had in one evening. Looking at the oft-criticized Carefully Crafted Candidates of today, it's easier to understand why they do what they do when you read examples like this.
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Nick wrote: "Looking at the oft-criticized Carefully Crafted Candidates of today, it's easier to understand why they do what they do when you read examples like this."Great point, Nick. Though even modern campaign crafting only goes so far. Think of Marco Rubio's robot routine or Rick Perry's "oops."
I was struck by the pathos of Bob's downfall, culminating with him becoming physically sick. He reminds me of a Greek tragic hero, undone by own tragic flaw.
Mod
"However brightly La Follette's star burned, it would never outshine the supernova that was Theodore Roosevelt" (p. 222).That was my favorite sentence from this chapter (which did have many splendid sentences).
Aside from the reports that La Follette was ill or insane or otherwise "unfit for the presidency," this was a case in which character defamation was superfluous as a strategy to gain the nomination.
No candidate could surpass TR! Yes, "effective democracy depended on well-informed voters" (p. 223)--and it still does--but who wants a president that lacks pizzazz? Nobody in 1912, nobody now.
I always find it amazing when someone would rather lose completely than to compromise even a little. Just the thought of Roosevelt's involvement in La Follette's platform was too much for him and it cost him everything. Roosevelt's support would have likely kept his party in power, even if Roosevelt may have watered down the platform to La Follette's liking.It continues to be hard to wrap my mind around how different the two parties in power are from where they have become today. The "new" Republican party is the party of the progressive movement and the Democrat being the more corporate friendly one!
I agree with Robin that this chapter had many splendid sentences. The whole book is very well written. I don't know it I am warming up more to the subject or if the author became increasingly inspired, but each chapter seems to be getting better. I also end up feeling sympathy for almost every character in this book, and this is another sign of excellent writing. The details bring us close to the characters. One of my favorites is Rooselvelt's children's description of their father: "When he went to a wedding he thought he was the bride and when he went to a funeral he thought he was the corpse" (p. 211).
I also liked the initial description of Wilson. In one paragraph (p. 204), Wolraich told us all we needed to know to picture Wilson and understand both his speech and the people's reaction. Something that stood out to me at this point is the people's perennial hunger for a true leader, in spite of a history of disappointments.
Another favorite: "Governor Wilson sat next to him, his face impassive. He had listened courteously to the entire speech, barely moving a muscle while La Follette self-destructed." Great choice of words creating contrast: impassive, barely moving... self-destructed. The adjective courteously is well placed, softening and defining Wilson's impassivity.
A lot changed in this chapter concerning the series of character narratives we've been reading thus far. Future-president Wilson becomes governor and Democratic rising star, the progressive wave overtakes the old guard, Uncle Joe meets his end as leader of the Senate, Aldrich's Senate career ends, TR and Taft grow increasingly apart over US Steel, and La Follette crumbles. While I understand LF's not wanting to invite TR into the NPRL, I wonder if things would have turned out differently if he had. If TR hadn't gone on his own way and LF would have taken a backseat to TR running as the progressive candidate, what would have happened then? Could TR have won a third term? Just another what-if in history I guess. I was so saddened for La Follette at the end of this chapter. In many ways, it looked like this was his moment, his chance to shine brighter instead of being the cast-off he came into DC as. There was such wave of support. But it just fell apart in the end. That last scene of him on February 2nd 1912 in Philadelphia was nearly heartbreaking. I hope he bounces back but we'll see in the next chapter.
Favorite quote for me was about TR from his children on page 211: "...when he went to a wedding, he thought he was the bride, and when he went to a funeral, he thought he was the corpse." That line really encapsulates TR for me.
Oh, yes, many politicians still fall a part today. I like your mention of robot Rubio, Michael. Rubio during that debate was as painful to watch as reading about La Follette's breakdown. No one had the sense to stop him before he dribbled on for two hours? And Wilson listened the whole time? Obviously he was (literally) sick and tired. But would he have done much better in the election had he not delivered that speech?
Now this is where it gets interesting. Woodrow Wilson is on the scene. In all my readings, I never fully understood how the Taft, Roosevelt, and Wilson affair came into being. I am looking forward to more reading on this. I am also very interested by seeing how the dynamics of the Congress changed over a very short period of time. Have we seen this in our age? When popular votes push an entire party out of their seats? I would say this is similar to the nation voting the Republicans out during the traumatic days of the Iraq war. An unpopular war leads to an unpopular administration. Now, that means those who voted for the war are on the list. I did not see as much of this popular removal during the Great Recession. Maybe we should have.
Nick wrote: "It's interesting to me to look at examples such as LaFollette's speech in this chapter, or Nixon's performance in the 1960 television debate, and how they helped to shape our modern campaign proces..."Nick, I agree with your comment about Nixon and the first debate. It is interesting that the people who listened to that debate on the radio thought Nixon won. But his TV appearance was terrible. I can still picture him sweating in front of the cameras.
Bentley wrote: "Folks I am away on personal travel with intermittent internet - I am opening up two weeks of threads - will will be flying back tomorrow."
Here we have a chapter of men behaving badly. Wilson wasted no time in showing himself to be an independent leader, much to the chagrin of party bosses. Then LF couldn't tame his ego to make a smart political alliance with TR over the progressive wing of the Republican Party. Uncle Joe spent the last three months of his speakership encouraging filibusters. Then there were assorted scandals and secret deals. To paraphrase, it was politics as usual.
I too was saddened for La Follette and how he just fell apart with his speech and lost support. He had the support to begin with but couldn’t maintain it. I really felt very sad for him. But LF had a failure in allying himself with TR. The quote from page 222, says it all and is one of my favorite quote in this chapter and agree with Robin’s assessment.“However brightly La Follette’s star burned, it would never outshine the supernova that was Theodore Roosevelt.� Though Roosevelt made no public announcement of his candidacy, a series of coordinated endorsements siphoned off LF support. When his speech came, he just fell apart and got angry and self- destructed.
I am also learning how Woodrow Wilson came into being first as Governor. Wilson sat at the table next to LF when he collapsed and was impassive but listened to his entire speech. This was telling to me. How much of what LF said would resonate with him?
Great comments all. Thank you.Another thing that is interesting is that Progressives were looking to change the old system. They looked to a stronger president, not Congress as in the past. In the 19th century, Congress dominated.
TR seemed to inspire the Progressives to look on the president to help their causes. Then you have Taft, who seemed to prefer an older style of governance.
Wilson also appreciated a stronger executive.
Nick wrote: "It's interesting to me to look at examples such as LaFollette's speech in this chapter, or Nixon's performance in the 1960 television debate, and how they helped to shape our modern campaign proces..."It was indeed sad to see LaFollette end this way, but I think that he, like many famous historical figures who fall out of fashion, often times have a greater impact upon history than those who for the moment outshine them. Confucius was constantly slighted and despaired of his lack of achievement, yet few have had a greater impact upon world history.
I was very surprised to read how Woodrow Wilson, the academician, a man unfamiliar with the machinations of politics, was able to out maneuver Jim Smith the boss of Newark. I loved Wolraich's description of Teddy - a super nova.
Although Joe Cannon is a fairly despicable fellow, I was impressed with his statement (given on p. 218) warning about the actions of the Democrats once they became a majority in the House. "We should have a long period of investigation, not to cure evils, if any exist, but to create scandals and party capital." This seems to be the method of operation of both parties once they achieve a majority.
There were two things I liked in particular about this chapter. The first is the introduction, at last, of Woodrow Wilson, who is elected as the Progressive Democratic governor of New Jersey. It's interesting to see how Woodrow Wilson had to earn some of his Progressive credentials at this time. It's amazing how quickly he established himself as such and broke the back of Boss Smith. With all that Woodrow Wilson would do right and wrong in the presidency, it's easy to forget that he was a very effective and politically brave governor as well.The second thing that I liked about this passage was seeing the implosion of Sen. La Follette. It's so sad to see how this man, who pioneered the Progressive values and policies that still affect us today, succumb to the stresses of the campaign trail and the troubles in his personal life. Campaigns have a way of testing the mettle of a candidate in ways we don't always understand or appreciate. How different would the Republican party be today if Sen. La Follette had been able to establish himself as the preeminent leader of the Progressive wing of the party? Would there still be a Progressive wing in the Republican party if he had?
As a side note, it was also sad to see Sen. Nelson Aldrich's career come to such a quiet end. Mr. Wolraich allowed us to see his conversion from a staunch Standpatter to a nominal progressive with his push for an American central bank system. Still, there may not be a Federal Reserve system were it not for Sen. Aldrich's quiet campaign for a central bank system. I think we owe him some credit for that at least.
I was very shocked by the speech that La Follette gave at the end of this chapter. It was a bad decision to give it in the first place and the content was great either. Others have said above that he was sunk after giving it and I have to agree.Funny how a man like TR can completely derail all the work La Follette did just by hinting that he "might" run. I'm looking forward to finishing up the book!
Like others, I love the line about TR "if he was at a wedding he thought he was the bride, if he was at a funeral he thought he was the corpse".But it's interesting; most people who have that sort of attitude are obnoxious. TR was quite evidently not. I wonder how he pulled that off?
Somewhere (in one biography or another, I forget which) I read that when he had a broken leg he wrote to the president of Harvard asking for a reading list and detailing what books he had already read in various areas of study.
I am continually impressed with Michael Wolraich's talent with words! I feel as if I am there - at Osawatomie for TR's speech, at the Jekyll Island Club with Aldrich and his buddies...reading the descriptions has been one of the best parts of this read for me.
Jason wrote: "I was very shocked by the speech that La Follette gave at the end of this chapter. It was a bad decision to give it in the first place and the content was great either. "Such a human experience, though. All of us have probably had similar ones, though with less far-reaching results. You know that little voice inside that tells you all the good reasons you shouldn't do X? Sometimes, that voice is right.
Funny how a man like TR can completely derail all the work La Follette did just by hinting that he "might" run.
Oh, yes. That's the one departure from the Sanders/Clinton analogy, which has continued to strike me as more and more relevant as the book has gone on. But this is one major difference. Hillary Clinton never waffled about running. But neither does she have the charm that made TR a real challenge and would have kept La Follette out of the race.
Bentley wrote: "Very true Nick. He never had a chance after that."It is kind of amazing that one bad speech or one bad day is all it takes to end a campaign - regardless of all of the good he had done and all of the momentum he'd gain. I think the results of this speech were the biggest surprise for me in this chapter.
I feel for LaFollette - all he had worked for, and to lose it with one bad speech...of course, if he had been a more charismatic/popular choice, one speech wouldn't have done it. Just imagine what TR and LaFollette could have done if they worked together! But that wasn't in either man's nature...
Tomi wrote: "I feel for LaFollette - all he had worked for, and to lose it with one bad speech...of course, if he had been a more charismatic/popular choice, one speech wouldn't have done it. Just imagine what ..."I agree with Tomi - it's really sad. I like how Michael foreshadowed by calling out to the readers about how late it was, how tired everyone was and the looks on their faces when LaFollette headed up to the podium with a sheaf of papers. I think I would have taken off when LaFolette offered those who weren't with him to leave. Very descriptive writing!
I noticed the mention of Frank Vanderlip.My parents actually lived in a house he had built. Or, rather, a part of his house. Vanderlip built a huge mansion on extensive grounds in Westchester NY. Later, the mansion was split into 3 parts - my parents' part was a 5 bedroom house with 4 maids rooms - and condos were put up on the property
Vanderlip was quite a character. On the ceiling of the living room, he had engraved a seal of every university and corporation he was on the board of. He had also built a path through the woods to the nearby train station so that he would not have to mingle with the common folk on the way to his private railroad car.
Gevalt
Peter
Michael wrote: "Nick wrote: "Looking at the oft-criticized Carefully Crafted Candidates of today, it's easier to understand why they do what they do when you read examples like this."Great point, Nick. Though ev..."
Mr. Michael
This book impresses me with your view and assessment of the people and their motivations.
But it goes further I guess than I assumed in your delving into the personalities. I assume the fellow you refer to as Bob is LaFollette - correct?
By this chapter I have been struck by your ability to present the political situations of the times and I do appreciate it. It reminds me a bit of Kearns Goodwin's LBJ book with the intimacy she established
But is TR Theo for you?
Doris Kearns Goodwin
Peter wrote: "I noticed the mention of Frank Vanderlip.My parents actually lived in a house he had built. Or, rather, a part of his house. Vanderlip built a huge mansion on extensive grounds in Westchester NY...."
To all my HBC friends I ask - do you know
Gevalt?
This was really so far the best chapter to me - maybe because it brought so much together to conclusions or visual situations.Anyway before I go to my prepared comments, I am habitual how I do this, while reading all your comments (thank you) I would note that we should remember that at this time Senators were not popularly elected so were a choice always of the "political machine"
Anyway page 219 para 5 - "corrupting influence of powerful business organizations" - so was this the original basis that led to PACs and Citizen United as they were sniffled in coming years?Pg 211 - para 1 - LF says "if the entire country established these reforms LF was certain the rest would follow" - but Michael if the "entire country" did it who is left to follow?
pg 211 para 4 - interesting that TR's charisma was feared
pg 212 para 2 LF's "campaign of education" it seems has yet to arrive - we need it
pg 217 - interesting that since LF was not an obstacle to TRs goals TR say LF is a good guy.
pg 220 the note that he would not quit his quest for the nomination "until the gavel falls" plus the overflowing crowds at his speeches could make one wonder if this about LF or Bernie but - this was published in 2014 so I guess it is LF
I found the description of LaFollette's speech very enlightening. Up until this, the picture of FaFollette is a man who refuses to compromise his ideals and who stands outside the norm of opinion - a champion of fairness for the masses. Now all of a sudden, he becomes something else. I know he was sick and anxious about his daughter but he misjudged the whole evening. It's supposed to be an entertaining dinner - he brings a two-hour speech. He starts off obnoxiously insulting his audience and then begins to harangue them, even telling them to leave if they don't like it. I think that LaFollette could never have succeeded in any kind of national coalition. He seems to have been happiest being on the outside "fighting" against everyone else. Maybe his true calling was to point to needed reforms rather than get them implemented.
Mod
A couple of interesting things caught my eye in this chapter. On page 212-213, when there was "bedlam" on the house floor. The sergeant at arms was asked to bring out the "Mace." I wasn't sure what that was so I looked it up: Also on pg 216 La Follette , speaking about TR, says "He is willing to have some one do the Light Brigade Act, stop Taft, and get shot about the right time," which seems almost like a premonition of things to come.. (hope that's not a spoiler!)
La Follette's speech was amazing. I think it show how consumed he was with the progressive movement and his feeling that he was the only true progressive. To begin a speech at 11:00 pm after people had been sitting all day bad enough but to continue with his full speech was insane. It seems like he knew he was at his end and that he had to get even with the people who had betrayed him or didn't support his work.I felt sorry for him at the end of the chapter. However, in my mind he had set himself up for failure and wanted to make a grand exit.
Poor LaFollette self destructed in that speech and it is unfortunate that he will probably always be remembered for that, rather than his dedication to the US and the need for reform. His illness and worry over his daughter's medical condition clouded his judgement on that day but it spelled the end for him as a political force with any base of support. He seemed almost hysterical and unhinged. It really was a sad ending for a man of principle, even if one didn't agree with his views.
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Lyndon Johnson & the American Dream (other topics)Unreasonable Men: Theodore Roosevelt and the Republican Rebels Who Created Progressive Politics (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Doris Kearns Goodwin (other topics)Michael Wolraich (other topics)
For the week of June 6th through June 12th we are reading Chapter Nine of Unreasonable Men: Theodore Roosevelt and the Republican Rebels who Created Progressive Politics by Michael Wolraich.
The ninth week's reading assignment is:
Week Nine - June 6th - June 12th
Chapter Nine - The Progressive - (pages 203 - 224)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on April 11th. It is never too late to start a book here at the History Book Club.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. This weekly thread will be opened up today (sorry but away on travel).
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Bentley will be moderating this discussion and Assisting Moderators Teri, Jill, Bryan, and Samanta will be backups.
The author Michael Wolraich will also be actively participating in the moderation with Bentley. We welcome him to the discussion.
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~Bentley
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