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Hello, dear friends. As agreed, today is the day when we start the buddy read of our sci-fi /fantasy series. If you remember, we have chosen the original Dune series, written by Frank Herbert.

Because in the buddy read we usually discuss one book in the same thread, please consider this post as the beginning of this thread. In this thread, we are going to discuss Book 1 only.

There are three parts (called books) in this novel. These can be used as certain bearings for us as I will encourage you to comment on these three parts separately.

PLEASE use the SPOILER HTML links to hide spoilers because there will be only one thread per each book in this series.

For example,

Dune, Book I
(view spoiler)[ I am really looking forward to this discussion because this is the novel when science fiction meets reality as it is the projection of our own world with allusions to the cultures of Middle East as well as environmental issues, planetology, gender exploration, and many other issues that were revolutionary for sci-fi of the sixties. (hide spoiler)]

There is definitely no reading schedule with dates and deadlines, but I believe it is reasonable to devote 10 days per each book. It is totally o'k to read ahead to be slightly behind, but make sure that you indicate about what book (Book I, II, or III) your comment is and do not forget to use spoiler marks.

Some questions to ponder over while reading and discussing part I.

1. Are the pseudo-quotations helpful to understand the novel or is it a literary trick, a literary game, and nothing more?

2. What are your thoughts about the world we are plunged as readers?

3. Can we describe the conflict in terms of cultural war, namely East vs West or Europe vs Asia?

4. Is this planet Arrakis or Dune for you?

These are just starting points, but I will strongly encourage you to bring in some other points into the discussion.

I read this for the first time thirty years ago! Wow! Time is weird. I'm going to dig up my copy and read along with you. I remember this as an amazing reading experience, and the world of Arrakis as richly detailed and thoroughly plotted. At first I struggled with the pseudo-quotes, but came to appreciate them as I continued to read. Eventually, they became part of what made the Dune such a tour de force, adding to my understanding of their universe and peoples.

It took me a minute to understand what I was reading because the author placed me at the beginning of Paul's importance. I had to reread a couple times just because it was like BAM!! this lady is here to see you tomorrow, now try to go to sleep. Now I am getting into the rhythm.

I'm still waiting to get this one, I'm on the waiting list but I might just buy it.

Kristina wrote: "It took me a minute to understand what I was reading because the author placed me at the beginning of Paul's importance. I had to reread a couple times just because it was like BAM!! this lady is h..."

It is a dramatic plunge:-)

Delmy =^.^= wrote: "I'm still waiting to get this one, I'm on the waiting list but I might just buy it."

Delmy, I read the book some time ago, but then a year ago I found a six-book set in the second-hand book store. It was brand new, published in late seventies. The prices on the back were so funny :-) The pages are yellow and the smell is specific, but they are still brand new. Possibly someone found in the attic. :-)

NBR. Never Been Read. Like Gatsby's library. :p

Ditto!

Zulfiya wrote: "Delmy =^.^= wrote: "I'm still waiting to get this one, I'm on the waiting list but I might just buy it."

Delmy, I read the book some time ago, but then a year ago I found a six-book set in the se..."

I tried a second-hand store but no such luck! oh, well!

Delmy-
Is it possible that your library has ebooks as well as physical books? If you haven't a tried their audio/electronic lusts that might be another source for you. Also, the Kindle version costs about $5.70. Just throwing in some ideas. It can be frustrating to be on the waiting list.

They only have one copy each-Ebook and physical book, no audio, but then again I hate listening to books. I am only one in the queue so it should be too long.
:)

I started to like the pseudo-quotations pretty soon. I know it's a device but I think they help to place events. I'm wondering, though, if they are all going to be from the same point of view. I am about 1/3 through part 1, and so far, they are all helping to reinforce the good guys/bad guys thing. I'm wondering if the same people will keep on being the good guys all the way through.

I'm struggling to understand what the conflicts and politics are about. I don't really get the setup yet. It seems organized on clan or feudal lines, but you'd expect that in relatively small societies, not in large nations or worlds.

I'm finding it a little sexist. The Bene Gesserit are all women, but the messiah they're waiting for has to be a man, and because he's a man he'll have extra powers...right. A sign of the times it was written I suppose, but somehow in scifi when the author is creating the world, it seems more his fault than in realist novels that reflect a society that actually exists.

ETA: Reading that over, it sounds a little negative but I am enjoying it! The descriptions of the planet are vivid - the idea of a planet where water is so scarce is very imaginative - and you certainly get thrown right into the action.

I just started reading this one and am about 20 pages in. It is pretty interesting so far and I have to agree with the above ideas that it does start the action pretty quickly. I haven't read to many sci-fi books so this is all pretty new to me.

I've started reading and enjoying it so far. I read it years ago so it feels quite familiar. I like the introductory pseudo-quotation sections (they give the material a bit of a 'meta' feel). I recently read "Foundation" by Isaac Asimov which used a similar convention at the beginning of each section so I think it used to be a common writing technique for the SF/F genre.

Rosemary wrote: "'m finding it a little sexist. The Bene Gesserit are all women, but the messiah they're waiting for has to be a man, and because he's a man he'll have extra powers...right. A sign of the times it was written I suppose, but somehow in scifi when the author is creating the world, it seems more his fault than in realist novels that reflect a society that actually exists."

The Bene Gesserit are so weirdly freakish and as characters are one of the most original inventions in the science fiction, IMHO.

If you are familiar with the world of the fantasy series 'Wheel of Time', the Aes Sedai, the semi-secretive caste of women, then you might notice how they were molded after the Bene Gesserit.

Esther wrote: "they give the material a bit of a 'meta' feel"

It is definitely meta - ish, but quite enjoyable, in my opinion. Post-modernism was obviously quite pervasive and even penetrated genre literature :-)

On a personal note, have you enjoyed the Foundation series?

Zulfiya wrote: "The Bene Gesserit are so weirdly freakish and as characters are one of the most original inventions in the science fiction, IMHO.

If you are familiar with the world of the fantasy series 'Wheel of Time', the Aes Sedai, the semi-secretive caste of women, then you might notice how they were molded after the Bene Gesserit."

Cool, I will look forward to discovering more about them as we go along. I haven't read the Wheel of Time series.

I didn't like Foundation ... maybe that's a bad sign? but Dune's characters already have more depth, which is the main thing I found lacking in Foundation.

And then Foundation (the first book) really had no female characters at all, so that's more points for Dune right there :)

When I read this first part, one of the things I was immediately intrigued by was all of the implied history -- the "Ancients" were mentioned, as well as a "Great Revolt" and the law forbidding "thinking machines".

I'm interested to find out if there is any connection to our own society, or if it is more like Star Wars where we are meant to assume it's a completely separate civilization.

I've only read the first "Foundation" book but I did enjoy it. It's different from most 'modern' science fiction, but I think it provides interesting insights into the genre and I really enjoyed the political philosophy elements. I do think that reading the series all in one go would be hard as the "physchohistory" concept makes everything feel quite predetermined.

One of the other parallels I've noticed between "Foundation" and "Dune" is how many of the chapters are basically dialogue. From reading "Dune" before, I know there is action coming, but I find it interesting how pervasive the role of dialogue and concepts is in both these books.

I finally got my copy of "Dune" today! I'm starting it now...hope I like it!
:)

I finished Book 1 within Dune today i.e. not the book, just the section.

(view spoiler)[ What I found interesting is when the point-of-view switches back and forth between Jessica and Paul. It's clear that they don't see things in the same way which intrigued me. What also interested me is that this kind of technique - switching POV within scenes - is now frowned upon as a writing technique in contemporary literature, but it can be so effective. (hide spoiler)]

Good point, Esther.
(view spoiler)[ Did you find any of the two narratives more emotionally relatable? As for me, I first thought that Jessica's would be more intriguing, but later Paul's also won my heart. There is something of a cold Bene Gesserit in Jessica. (hide spoiler)]

I've just finished the first section too. I love how much depth this book has. A lot has happened already, but I feel we're only just beginning to scratch the surface of what is really going on. I'm loving it!

I finished the first section last night. Very interesting.

(view spoiler)[ It was interesting at the end of the first section, where Paul came into his own. He started figuring stuff out, became more calculated and almost harsh. No more boy at all.

I like the Fremen. They understand the land and respect it's hardships. I was quite upset when the housekeeper died, the one who gave Jessica they cry sword.

Speaking of Jessica, she can decide when to get pregnant and determine which gender she wants. Why would she decide to get pregnant when they were just moving to/had just moved to a hostile planet where there was danger everywhere. At that point, there wasn't the thought that Jessica was Harkonnen so there was no trying to endear the Duke back to her. For someone who can control timing, it seems off.

Now, Jessica is the Baron's daughter? That is interesting, they say that she doesn't know her parentage but Reverend Mother must. It is too much of a coincidence otherwise. (hide spoiler)]

Joyce wrote: "Speaking of Jessica"

(view spoiler)[ I was questioning her decision as well. On the other hand, she is a Bene Gesserit, and they can do whatever they want. The idea of supremacy is deeply embedded in their heads. (hide spoiler)]

Zulfiya wrote: "Joyce wrote: "Speaking of Jessica"

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[I assumed she made this decision because she somehow knew it was necessary - i.e. a daughter was needed and this was the right time (or maybe the last chance). (hide spoiler)]

I am almost done with the first section. I am not going to lie. I am having a really hard time getting into this book. I find Jessica and Paul interesting and I like the quotations giving the characters thoughts on conversations. I just am having a hard time wrapping my head around the world they are living in. I am actually mad that I feel like I am not "getting" it. I am not giving up on the book. Just feeling a little sluggish with it.

The world building is challenging because it is both alien and similar to the one we have. During my first read, I also struggled with the world building.

I read some years ago that Dune is a certain projection of the cultural war (West vs. East and the big oil ('spice' in the novel) lobby trying to fish in muddy waters of Middle East). Maybe this cultural paradigm will give you a certain feeling of sense and direction.

On the other hand, sci-fi is often hard to read because of the emotional bond. We usually easily establish bonds with characters from literary fiction or even historic fiction because the world is familiar (ours), and the stories focus primarily on few characters. In sci fi, much effort is devoted to world-building, and the events are often panoramic, not individualistic, and some characters (not all) turn into mechanical toys, and we feel that we are emotionally severed from them.

I finished the first section and I think I figured out why I was having such a hard time spoiler: (view spoiler)[As soon as I heard sandworms, I immediately kept thinking Star Wars. I kept thinking we got Jessica as Princess Lea and young Luke Skywalker...so on and so on. Once I started looking at as like a Mars type planet, i started to appreciate it more. I am looking forward to the next section. Also Yueh tooth/poisonous gas was pretty cool even though it was at the Duke's expense. (hide spoiler)]

anybody still reading Dune? I have just joined the group and just started Book 1, I think I'm getting hooked already

I am finishing PART 2, BOOK 1, and will be posting questions today or tomorrow.

What did you find the most intriguing: the world-building, the setting, the nearly feudal politics, or the secret organization, cultivating the idea of the Messiah, Kwisatz Haderach?

Hi Zulfiya, I am about 15% in, it's all pretty new still.
So far I appreciate the politics of the conflicting families (Atreides vs Harkonnen) and I am intrigued by the "Bene Gesserit" order. I do know that there is so much in the saga that I have to get to know.

I like the pseudo-quotations, it allows some clues/insights in the story that is developing.
As a first time reader, I felt dropped into a strange world with little introduction, so I had to return back and re-read passages and/or check on the name of places/characters to make sense of them. I guess I'm still adjusting

I am about a 1/4 of the way through "book 2". It's interesting how Paul is being developed.

I find the Messiah/religion aspect intriguing, but uncomfortable - especially the idea that the coming of the Messiah was intentionally planted in the minds of the Fremen.

I'm fascinated by the worms. I want to know more about them and what is their relationship to the spice. I think there's more than meets the eye, there.

I am through with book 2 within the book Dune, and here are some questions about this part. I am hiding them as spoilers because some of them are quite revealing.

(view spoiler)[

1. Is Paul the Messiah (Kwisatz Haderach, ) everyone is secretly talking about? By the way, Rosemary, why do you find the idea of of the Messiah disturbing?

2. Do you think Paul's behavior is changing after he becomes aware that he might have a mission on this planet?

3. What are your thoughts about Fremen and Arrakis in general? Do you prefer to call it Dune or Arrakis?

4. What do you think about storms and worms? Do you think that world should have been more alien with other alien imaginative creatures or is it the story of earthlings striving for power, so the analogy of Middle East overloaded with oil as Arrakis with spice is a good metaphor?

5. Are you impressed by action scenes in the novel?

6. Do you feel how the focus is changing, and Paul is becoming the focal character in the novel?

7. Which of the conceptual/social ideas do you find the most intriguing: Kwisatz Haderach, Mentat, the Bene Gesserit, the Sardaukar, the Spice Melange. Do we have anything similar on Earth? (hide spoiler)]

P.S. Herbert also explores cultures and religions in this series. Do you feel the whiffs of our modern religions in his book so far?

I also finished book 2 within the first book

spoiler: (view spoiler)[1.

I think that Paul is the Kwisatz Haderach.

2. I think that he is maturing and becoming a leader he was trained to be.

3. I think the Fremen are highly intelligent people that have really learned to live in Arrakis. They are such an interesting group of people


The water that Jessica drinks is something else. WOW.

(hide spoiler)]

By the way, Rosemary, why do you find the idea of of the Messiah disturbing?

I guess it's the idea that people can be manipulated so easily. I want to admire the Fremen, but if they have been so easily taken in by having the whole Messiah expectation imposed on them, I don't know.

And yet Paul picked the Maud'Dib name without knowing what it was going to be. And he clearly sees the future, or at least future possibilities.

For me, the book raises the questions - was Jesus the Messiah? Was Mohammed the Messiah? Or was there no Messiah, but the people of those times expected one strongly enough to give those prophets that name?

I love that Paul sees the possibility of religious crusades/jihads being undertaken in his name and is desperately seeking a way to avoid that happening. Maybe Frank Herbert thought Jesus (and Mohammed?) would have wanted to avoid all the violence that has happened in their names, too.

I wonder what end the Bene Gesserit are working towards? Do they want the jihad to happen?

Rosemary wrote: I want to admire the Fremen, but if they have been so easily taken in by having the whole Messiah expectation imposed on them, I don't know.

I think you're being a little hard on the Fremen here. The Bene Gesserit has been pulling strings for a very long time, it's not like the Fremen have fallen for a parlor trick...and after all, in the real world, all of western civilization has had a "messiah expectation" imposed on us for 2000 years!

John wrote: "in the real world, all of western civilization has had a "messiah expectation" imposed on us for 2000 years!"

Assuming it was deliberately sown...

I guess if you look at it like that, it's surprising there wasn't more of a Christian backlash against Dune - or maybe there was?

Rosemary wrote: "Assuming it was deliberately sown..."

Ha, yeah that's getting into "conspiracy theory" territory there :) I wasn't saying there was a direct correlation, just that there are similarities in the cultural mindset - or at least there were in the relatively recent past. :)

Hmm...the reaction from religious viewpoints would be an interesting thing to look into, I found that I would like to read but really don't have time now... I will leave it here for later.

Authors envision their fictional worlds based on their own experience. Literature itself is a combination of literary voyeurism and exhibitionism: authors peep and snoop, listen to the smithereens of conversations and debates, pick the leftovers of human drama. A literary spice-melange of sorts:-) True imagination does not come out of nowhere; it always needs fuel - the fuel of human experience, of being human, of trying to see sense when there is no sense.

No wonder that the same human species from our future will still look for a certain sense of direction, a man who knows much and can foresee so much, a Messiah. I believe it is a profoundly human experience, not exactly logical or reasonable, but fundamentally human.

It is an interesting discussion you dug out, John. Let me be honest and maybe brutal and judgmental - as a secularist, I often snub religious forums, but this thread seems to be quite interesting.

Finished reading the second part, at last.

(view spoiler)[ I find the double layers to the whole prophecy aspect really interesting. On the one hand, the Bene Gesserit have sown religions that make it easier for them to control. On the other, they themselves have their own prophecies that they believe in. It's a strange tension - prophecy is both planted and 'real' in this world.

As a side note, as a religious Christian, I don't find the book at all offensive. When people talk about Jesus being a fake, I find that offensive. But the idea of someone planting a false Messiah doesn't bother me at all, especially in a work of fiction. But then I do read a lot of science fiction and fantasy. (hide spoiler)].

(view spoiler)[ Esther wrote: " On the one hand, the Bene Gesserit have sown religions that make it easier for them to control. On the other, they themselves have their own prophecies that they believe in. It's a strange tension - prophecy is both planted and 'real' in this world."

People tend to believe their own propaganda they themselves create. It was true, it is true, and it will be true. Sci-fi is still about us and what we are - it only shows the humanity from a different perspective. (hide spoiler)]


On a side note, I am finishing book III in the first book and will be posting questions and comments soon.

I am about a 3rd of the way through part 3 of the first book. This one is interesting as well.

I agree with Zulfiya, people do generally end up believing in the fantasy they create, if they don't at the beginning, the will start eventually.

I finished the third part of the first book. Very interesting.

(view spoiler)[It is crazy how much the ma-baron tries to cheat and feels that it is ok.. and how much the Emperor supports him (hide spoiler)]

When are we starting the second book?

I have ten or twelve pages to go, and then post either tonight or tomorrow. I think we will give those who are reading with us a week to catch up and then we might start book II.

Excellent.

(view spoiler)[ Did you read the appendixes at the back? What did you think of those? I found them almost argumentative with the rest of the book. Was this series based of off something? (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[ Yes, I have. The tone is very different and indeed controversial. They do explain a lot, especially the section about Religion and the Bene Gesserit, and I found it useful that I read it before the novel. On the other hand, I still had to use it as a reference throughout the book, but it does contain semi-spoilers and even direct spoilers, like the origin of Lady Jessica. (hide spoiler)]

Dune, Book One

I read Dune ( the first one, but not the series) back in HS and it knocked me on my butt. So I welcomed the opportunity to complete the series with this group. (I'm a bit behind already, having just finished a reread of the first third.) Once again I'm awestruck by the writing, the plotting, the world-building, the frickin scope of this saga. I'm so caught up in the characters and the story that it feels brand new. (Although, I remember crying over the Duke the first time.)

I love the reveal in the tent at the end of book one. The way it twists what you think you know, and makes the reader question every relationship, every motive, every point of view. Great stuff!