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I really used to enjoy the recommendations of this group but, it now effectively appears to be dead. Is anyone interested in us doing something about it? I would be willing to devote a few hour a month to resurrect it.

I'd like to participate in a good, hard SF group. I always meant to dive into this one, but now that I write full time it shouldn't be an issue.

I'm the president of SFNovelist.com, a hard SF writers group and I've noticed that hard SF is not as popular as it once was (1970s?). Maybe the "dumbing down" of America has had a negative effect. It wouldn't surprise me. After all, we elected Trump as president. I write full time and have noticed this group does not have as many posts.
Victory Crayne ([email protected])

I think its making a comeback. There's the Expanse, books like the Martian, Hugh Howey, my books, Felix R. Savage's. Hardness may vary, of course, but they do well.

I've also benefitted from the recommendations of this group in the past.
I'm in principle interested in participating but I'm not sure how much common ground there'd be between me and other potential participants. FWIW, here's my current favorite hard SF book: /review/show...

It is nice to see some activity here. I used to come here now and then to find hard SF. I'm a child of the sixties and that shaped my desire in reading hard SF. I thoroughly enjoyed The Martian and encouraged many readers among my friends to pick it up.
The success of SpaceX and others should also fuel the desire for science and physics based fiction.
Unfortunately the video media have been saturated with soft SF, if I may call it that and there is way too much negativity in video SF. Horror SF and dystopian stories seem to be the basis of the majority of so called SF movies and TV shows.
And here is my current hard SF recommendation:
Jasper T. Scott's "The New Frontiers" series.
The author knows about the physics of space ships moving through space. To anybody loving hard SF that is a given but unfortunately to many others it is not.
Jasper brings many great ideas into this trilogy and surprised several times with interesting twists.
The things that draw me to hard SF are:
- colonization of distant worlds. I like to see folks pulling on the same string to overcome whatever problems they encounter.
- generation starships
- space habitats
- space elevators
- finding and using ancient alien technology

What I don't like to read (anymore):
- space war
- mercenaries
- human antagonists ( why does there always have to be a bad guy?) The Martian, Apollo13 etc. were great without a human antagonist
- I don't like stories that could be set in any period in human history. These are often just rewrites of old stories set in SF

There you have it.

"The Martian" had a non-human antagonist--the planet Mars. Studies have shown that people (viewers, readers) prefer a human antagonist. I'm currently reading "Broken Window" by Jeffery Deaver, which has a human antagonist.

Yes, Victory, I understand that the protagonist is Mars and the Martian environment. However the environment is not in itself evil.
Also, please understand that I am merely expressing my own preferences. I am a cancer survivor and I think that changed my outlook on life.
I am now constantly looking at things that will give me hope and make me feel good about humanity and the future of our planet.
As a consequence I do not represent an average reader for a writer who wants to sell a lot of books to make a living.
I am rather a member of a small niche of readers who think like I do.

...cancer survivor...Good for you! Yes, the planet Mars is not in itself evil. Thes movie ("The Martian") was like "Outcast", starring Tom Hanks, in which the environment was the antagonist. Once again, the island and the remoteness of it were not evil per se. But some viewers/readers prefer that. Not everyone is like you and wants to see the positive side of Life.

I think it has to do with it becoming to politicized and preachy. People don't want to be preached to in the entertainment reading and be told they're idiots for not holding some particular political view. When you insult a large portion of your possible audience, don't be surprised when they leave.

John, your comment was negative. That's one way to spoil the discussion. I think Thomas and I agree on several points. I measure the matureness of someone by how much they accept 100% responsibility for their words, actions, and thoughts. Thomas and I have both accepted responsibility for our words here. It's okay to express an opinion. That's what starts more threads of discussion.

Insulting a large portion of the reading audience is what writers MUST do. Or they come conformists who cowtow to whatever is politically correct. I think most SF readers are above average in IQ. And most SF writers are above them. One of the responsibilities of a smarter person is expressing politically incorrect ideas. That's how we grow.
There, I’ve given lots of opinion in the above paragraph. Anyone care to agree or disagree?

Agreeing or disagreeing would require having understood what was meant.
Insulting people and being politically incorrect was Trump's schtick. Yet you suggested his success has to do with his audience having been dumbed down so I can only assume that behaving like Trump isn't what you think responsible writers ought to do. If that is indeed the case, I'm not sure what you actually meant.

I'm no kind of writer and never bothered to study English properly even though it's not my first language so I take responsibility for making basic mistakes. But I do hold writers to a higher standard (this goes for the three of you so please don't take it personally).

I am not a Trump supporter. I was only expressing an opinion. I am also a writer of hard SF. Anyone else care to comment?

I believe this discussion has somehow derailed. I just expressed what kind of science fiction I like, no more, no less.
GoodReads is a place I like to come to to look for reading suggestions. I love the idea of directly talking to authors but I am i no way trying to force my expectations on anybody.
So, please lighten up everybody and let's talk hard SF.
Any reading suggestions? I would love to hear from anybody, especially authors. Please don't be shy suggesting your own material.

I get your msg, Thomas. I am currently reading no hard SF. You can scan my books at crayne.com.

Thank you, Victory. I will do that.

I have to agree with Thomas, a story that deals with the logistics and obstacles of large scale migration would be interesting.

Like you say, we don't need an evil person. You can have conflict between people without having either of them be evil. Its alot harder to write though i imagine.

Oh and i have to ask, do any of you know of a book where we get to experience humans through the eyes of an alien?
I got a little taste of that in a book and the possibilities to introspect in that way are endless.

Victory, my comment didn't spoil the discussion, and I didn't make a 'negative comment' you did that.

As for insulting a large portion of the audience being what writers must do? No, it isn't. I'm a professional writer, a very successful independent author who supports himself and his family by my book sales. You do not make yourself successful by trying to alienate possible customers right out of the gate. You do not insult your clientele or they will go elsewhere.

Outis wrote: "I've also benefitted from the recommendations of this group in the past.
I'm in principle interested in participating but I'm not sure how much common ground there'd be between me and other potenti..."

Thanks - I just added this to my "to read" list

The point of my original post was that there had been no updates here for 2 months. If I reached out to the moderator about, perhaps, trying to get the group active again, would anyone be interested in participating? I would even consider making Outis' recommendation above as a potential book of the month.

Then again, I have not seen username responding here so I am not sure if they are around.

Username is active on the site. As a moderator, I think they're responsible for answering messages from people who want to do something with the groups they moderate.
I'm a moderator in another group and I ought to do more to keep it active so I'm not volunteering to organize stuff in this group but I'll try to support anyone who does. In particular, if there are people interested in discussing some of the less popular books I read, you can naturally count me in.

The Clockwork Rocket does fit your criteria by the way, Thomas. Well, it mostly does: it has a larger scope than The Martian and so at various points enmity between individuals drive the story but there is no overarching antagonist character.

Outis wrote: "Username is active on the site. As a moderator, I think they're responsible for answering messages from people who want to do something with the groups they moderate.
I'm a moderator in another gro..."

I sent Username a message asking if he was interested in help.

Hi. It's me again. I'm not through even though I have many critics. Notice the arrows in my back? I must be doing something right because I have lots of critics.
I have an IQ of 160 on the Standford-Binet scale. That's about 4 std deviations above 100 (normal) and I've led an unusual life. So I see lots of things that those people who claim to be "normal" can't see.
For instance, I am not a Christian. I don't believe in a soul or heaven. Right away, I can hear those Christian-believers raise their voices, as If the person who gets the last word in wins. Sorry, but I think ideas stand alone.
I read hard SF in order to face reality. We humans have an unusual future.
The first thing we need to understand is that of the Technological Singularity. Kurzweil wrote that in about the year 2045 we should see research going up so fast that it will be almost vertical. We can expect many more technological advances, especially in the field of medical research. I cheer them on.
Yes, science will win out over religion.
It is only the "carry over" from our childish years (birth to five years old) that holds onto "old" beliefs. The election of Donald Trump was evidence of a step back. He was elected because of a trick in the Electoral College system. And he expressed opinions that were popular among those who wished a return to the fifties and sixties with his "Make America Great Again". It never was Great. America (and Canada) was one of the few countries that were not bombed a lot during WWII. So if you wanted to buy goods you had to buy American. That lead to an expansion of jobs. Blacks and women (and gays) were discriminated against.
I am writing to those who are awake and not echoing what their mommies said.
Reading hard SF will do that for you. By the time I was 13 I announced at the dinner table that I was not a Christian anymore. Thud. You could have heard a pin drop. I prefer to write hard SF, "realistic" SF. I think humans will overcome the light barrier and travel to the stars. In a few months, not years. It is very hard to predict the future. I'm sure that the SF writers among us will understand that.
I think this group could be more than just recommended reading. We could discuss ideas.
Those who claim that I "insult" readers fail to understand that writers of hard SF have a responsibility to lead, not just follow. That means expressing unpopular opinions.
I hear popular opinions all the time. They are boring. I don't just write to be popular. Never been good at that. I write to lead, not follow my mommy's opinions.
Once you can read, a whole new world opens up for you. And it's not the world of your grandparents either.
We humans face an unusual future. Reading hard SF will prepare us for it. If you can think, that is. Those who can't think will tend to echo their mommy's opinions. I expect lots of criticism for that comment.
Sigh. It's always been like that. I'm sure that during the Reformation in the Middle Ages, the so-called Dark Ages, those in Europe who were not Christians kept quiet. Unpopular opinions were not acceptable. It's the same today.
For example, I think that the "war on drugs" is futile. It's a reflection of Christianity's moralism.
Same with divorce. So I propose that marriage be for limited time periods, say ten years. I think that girls could take the last names of their mommy's and boys that last name of their father. That way the maternal line could be maintained.
Recreational drugs be legalized. Same with prostitution and gambling. Let those with incurable vices be treated from the revenue stream (taxes). Switch the expense side of the "war" to an income stream. You can't stop people from dipping into their "vices". There is no such thing as "sin". That's a creation of the religionists to help people feel guilty so they could sell more religion.
Sigh. Unpopular opinions again. I'm full of them.
I propose that group discuss ideas, not just recommend books.

There are lots of places more appropriate to discuss ideas out of the context of fiction.
Among the ideas possibly worth discussing in the context of fiction is this "light barrier" notion of yours. As it happens, the book I mentionned above addresses it with a counterfactual.
Another one might be the fallacy underlying both IQ and the "singularity". Anyone want to suggest a book or short story relevant to that one?
The other stuff such as the science/religion false dichtomy is a good deal less relevant to hard SF.

David wrote: "The point of my original post was that there had been no updates here for 2 months. If I reached out to the moderator about, perhaps, trying to get the group active again, would anyone be intereste..."

Hi everyone!
I'm sorry I haven't been replying, I must confess I use Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ mostly for tracking my personal reading, I find its platform for discussion confusing and hard to follow.

I keep up an incarnation of this group (which started in Yahoo! Groups) in Facebook: you are all welcome to join there.

I just made David a moderator and he can feel free to make the changes he sees fit- as long as he keeps it on topic and spam free!.

There's a poll for a March read in Facebook, and Infomocracy is in the lead. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of Greg Egan's works, he's probably the hardest of the hard sf authors, so I wouldn't be totally against of that being discussed here. Whatever works best!

None of these platforms are very good but Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ is the only one I'm willing to use. On the other hand some people aren't willing to use GR now that Amazon has taken over and so forth. There's no way to include everyone.

I would posit, from a hard SF standpoint, that SF which does not address the notion of a god is suffering from a failure of imagination.

Consider this: All advanced civilizations which outlast the star-forming portion of our universe's life (50 billion years or so) will migrate to supermassive blackholes and hangout either around them (based on our current understanding) or maybe in them. They will be the last remaining sources of energy till the end of the universe.

They may also not suffer from the expansion of the universe tearing them apart. If the Big Crunch does occur (which I subscribe to) then these black holes may not be pulled into it. They are postulated as being "primoridal black holes". So, super advanced civs hunker down around these black holes, and then likely become something more. Maybe hive minds, who knows.

If this happens, then they survive the destruction and creation of universes and are, in essence, extra-universal. They would be more god-like than most gods that humanity has conceived of. It could even be possible that these advanced civs can control or influence the ending and creation of universes.

My point is that Hard SF demands this sort of future extrapolation, and it can still be done within the bounds of science as we understand it today.

David wrote: "I really used to enjoy the recommendations of this group but, it now effectively appears to be dead. Is anyone interested in us doing something about it? I would be willing to devote a few hour a m..."

You have to blame social media, Many have fled to the FB and G+ environment. And with the Mix of Fantsy in the sc-fi section in books stores... well

I saw this the other day, was an interesting read:

Everyone, as Username mentioned, he made me an additional moderator. I was hoping to hit the ground running but alas, the real world has intruded. I will put together an introduction for myself over the weekend so you all will know a little bit about me. I will, for March, set our book of the month to match the club from Facebook. After that, I will initiate a discussion about running the clubs together with us and them matching book choices or if we should remain separate. Talk to everyone soon.

David wrote: "I will initiate a discussion about running the clubs together with us and them matching book choices ..."

I would love it if we could do that, it would make both groups stronger. The key point would be to find a suitable platform for the poll, without having to register in (yet another) site. The last time I tried, polls here in goodreads didn't allow for multiple voting.

In principle at least, you could have a "list" here which allows for multiple voting. Differences with a poll include:
-they're permanent (so popular also-rans would end up with the most votes sooner or later unless there is a constant stream of fresh votes)
-people who aren't group members could vote or add books to the list (not a problem for open groups in my opinion)
-deletions of off-topic books (and possibly of previous selections) need to be based on clear rules and can only be carried out by someone with the "librarian" status (I have it and it's easy to obtain for yourself)

Username wrote: "David wrote: "I will initiate a discussion about running the clubs together with us and them matching book choices ..."

I would love it if we could do that, it would make both groups stronger. The..."
I apologize for not having the discussion up yet but real life intrudes.

What I was thinking was using Facebook for the polling, but since it does not lend itself to discussions, we can use Facebook for the flyby, quick-hit comments with this site used for greater, in-depth discussions. We can also offer additional monthly reading recommendations based upon the choices of the poll. For example other books with similar themes or plots, or perhaps other books from the same author to compare/contrast against.