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Here is the text of the poem:

When does this discussion start?

It was supposed to have started. There is a schedule somewhere. We were going to allow two months I believe to discuss the entire work.

Jonathan wrote: "It was supposed to have started. There is a schedule somewhere. We were going to allow two months I believe to discuss the entire work."

Is this the thread for it, or is there another one somewhere I haven't seen yet?

Clari wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "It was supposed to have started. There is a schedule somewhere. We were going to allow two months I believe to discuss the entire work."

Is this the thread for it, or is there ano..."

Sure. We can use this thread. Hopefully, we can break it up into parts, but for now this thread should be fine.

What do you think of the very beginning? Does it make you want to continue reading? Going back and re-reading it, I think that the beginning is not as strong as other parts of the text. But that might be just me.

Natalie wrote: "What do you think of the very beginning? Does it make you want to continue reading? Going back and re-reading it, I think that the beginning is not as strong as other parts of the text. But that mi..."


How far are you counting as 'the beginning'?

I've read the first dozen or so stanzas and I do find it as powerful as I did when I first read it a decade or so ago. The appeal to God, the concept of our life entwined by death, the humanity of grief and failing the ideal Christian concept of finding peace in death as the beloved is now in heaven. All these things touch me greatly and they're so simply expressed as to be immediately understood and empathised with.

Clari wrote: "I've read the first dozen or so stanzas and I do find it as powerful as I did when I first read it a decade or so ago. ."

I also find it powerful. I see some similarities with the opening of Paradise Lost: Milton intends to "justify the ways of God to man," while Tennyson is also on a quest to justify God's decision to allow his friend to die so young. (That isn't explicit here, but I think they're clearly his thoughts when he says that God made both life and death, and "thy foot / Is on the skull which thou has made." His foot was indeed on Hallam's skull, and Tennyson, it seems to me, is trying to persuade himself that this is not an evil thing God has done, but is justified by Christ's (son of God) having made man; "thou art just." But does he really believe that, or is he trying to persuade himself? After all, he soon after says "Our wills are ours, we know not how;"

And I find the final stanza of the Prologue almost painful to read:

"Forgive these wild and wandering cries,
Confusions of a wasted youth..."

He certainly lays his soul bare to us, doesn't he?

BTW, I find the Christian symbolism of the Prologue a bit muddled. He starts "Strong Son of God," which presumably is Christ, and he says "Thou seemest human and divine," again apparently a Christ reference, but it was not Christ who made Life and Death, is it? Theologically, it seems confusing to me.

Everyman wrote: "He certainly lays his soul bare to us, doesn't he?

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I think that is why it is so strong, for me it feels like he is trying to convince himself, I read it as a struggle between his logical side looking at the power of God and his emotional side wrought with grief. Even for people who are religious, I think it is relatable in the sense that we all know we are going to die and our friends are going to die, but that knowledge doesn't lessen the extreme pain.

Maybe other people have more information about this, but a teacher once told me that the Victorians were much more comfortable talking about death and were scandalized by sex, whereas in the current times we've reversed it, where we are surrounded by sexual imagery and references but are deeply uncomfortable talking about death. If this is true, do you think this is reflected in Tennyson's poem and how we respond to it in the 21st century?

Regarding your comment on the theology, Everyman, a Christian God is absolutely central from the first lines to Tennyson's poem, and I think he's able to move between references to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit because they are all connected and the same. Christ is human so knew the pain and suffering of being mortal, but he is also God who orders and controls everything and the devout Christian should trust completely in.
Theoretically it is the paradox of God being all life, but He is also death. I've seen a linguistics essay on this, where the English language (and I think the languages it's related to) work in binaries and opposites, good to bad, light to dark, life to death, whereas other cultures have words that are more about cycles. I'm not confident enough in understanding it to discuss it much though!

Everyman wrote: "BTW, I find the Christian symbolism of the Prologue a bit muddled. He starts "Strong Son of God," which presumably is Christ, and he says "Thou seemest human and divine," again apparently a Christ ..."

Here are a couple of verses which indicate Christ was the creator:

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:15-16).

The New Testament calls Christ the Word of God, both in John and Revelation:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (John 1:1-3 NKJV)

This could be what Tennyson was thinking about.

Jonathan wrote: "Clari wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "It was supposed to have started. There is a schedule somewhere. We were going to allow two months I believe to discuss the entire work."

Is this the thread for it, o..."

is it possible to have the schedule linked here so I can see where I am supposed to be up to? Although tbh I have only just caught up on the Browning poems, but I'm aiming to be more organised and do better :)

Clari wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Clari wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "It was supposed to have started. There is a schedule somewhere. We were going to allow two months I believe to discuss the entire work."

Is this the..."

Sure. I have to find the schedule. Give me a day or two.

Jonathan wrote: "Clari wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Clari wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "It was supposed to have started. There is a schedule somewhere. We were going to allow two months I believe to discuss the entire work...."

Thanks I'll keep an eye on this thread, I'm enjoying this poem so relish the opportunity of discussing it together.

Jonathan seems to have gone on vacation. Is there still interest in discussing this poem? If so, perhaps we should set a new schedule and restart the reading and discussion?

I'd still like to join in on it - I haven't got hold of a copy yet but aim to do so in the next few days.

I'd be happy to contact Jonathan and get back to the group. Would someone be interested in creating a schedule?

Renee wrote: "I'd be happy to contact Jonathan and get back to the group. Would someone be interested in creating a schedule?"

I'm not sure you need to bother Jonathan -- he mentioned somewhere else that he was dealing with some illness, so perhaps we should let him deal with that without pressure from here, and come back when he's ready to.

In the meantime, I'll be glad to create a schedule if we get some people interested. I would like to see at least four people planning to join in before it's really worth while to try to get a serious discussion underway.

I would like to take part in the discussion. I had marked this thread to follow, but since it was long past March 1st, I thought I would be too behind to actually participate. Now that it has been delayed, I will have a chance to catch up.

I emailed Jonathan on the 29th, but as Everyman has said, if he's dealing with an illness, he has other things on his plate. I'm going to go ahead and reboot the discussion with a new thread for posting a schedule, "joining" and background, similar to what we do for a novel. Everyman has expressed the willingness to create a schedule, so I'm thanking him in advance. Much appreciated, Sir.

So far the group looks like Cindy, Clari, Natalie, Judy, and Everyman. Hopefully, others will join in once things get rolling.