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Hello Everyone,

For the week of May 8th - May 14th, we are reading chapter 4 of SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome by Mary Beard.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FOUR - May 8th - May 14th -> 4. Rome’s Great Leap Forward (131-168)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off April 17th.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Vicki

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Mary Beard

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.

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Also, the citation thread:

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Introduction Thread:

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Here is the link:

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Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc. with proper citations or other books either non-fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self-promotion, please.

Here is the link:

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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread

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Link:

by Mary Beard

Everyone, for the week of May 8th - May 14th, we are reading Chapter 4.

The fourth week's reading assignment is:

WEEK FOUR - May 8th - May 14th -> 4. Rome’s Great Leap Forward (131-168)

Chapter Overview and Summary:

4. Rome’s Great Leap Forward


The Twelve Tables

This chapter covers the early days of the Republic, including the Conflict of the Orders, the creation of the Twelve Tables of laws, and the gradual expansion of Rome’s control of central Italy.

Patricians and plebeians

Discussion Topics:

1. What do you think of the division of Romans into patrician and plebeian? It must have originated during the regal period since the first plebeian strike was in 474 BCE.

2. The plebeian assembly was given the power to make laws that applied to all citizens. How could they have gained such power?

3. If there were no formal, specific laws until the Twelve Tables were written around 450 BCE, how did anyone know if they were following the law?

Romans and allies fighting together

Discussion Topics:

1. What do you think of the way the Romans treated the “conquered�� cities, letting them keep their own governments and just requiring military aid when Rome went to war?

2. Was Rome successful in retaining a sort of control over its new territory because it mostly left the cities alone as long as they provided soldiers for Rome’s wars?

It seems strange that Rome didn't have a written set of laws until the Twelve Tables. Also that they didn't really have government positions like policemen, firemen, prosecutors, etc. even after that. Apparently the injured party, the plaintiff, had to make sure the defendant appeared in court - according to Table 1. They must have had some kind of official judges to preside over the arguments and determine the outcome.

Just making my way though this section. Not so strange as Rome, in 500 BCE seems to be an agricultural town. These tablets wold be the beginnings of writing down law. Like the Code of Hammurabi was in Babylon around 1754 BCE.

From the looks of it, they didn't seem familiar on how to write stuff down. The old Latin is pretty awkward.

Beard is still surprising me by how little we actually know about this early period.

True, Ola, although reading Livy's first volume makes it seem like the Romans certainly thought they knew what happened. And it's very entertaining.

by Livy

Michele, I was wondering how many people in early Rome, or in any similar city around this time, could even read. I guess there's no way to know.

The Romans never came anywhere near to completing the transition to a modern kind of written culture. They relied more heavily on oral communication. Full literacy is accomplishment of a small elite. Only the people with money, could afford to get a tutor for their children.

To get full literacy, you need a school system or the beginnings of one. That never happened in ancient Rome.

Mary Beard wrote of how early Romans defined their "ideas of citizenship...Civis Romanus sum (�� I am a Roman citizen��)." She noted how these words inspired one of the most memorable speeches of John F. Kennedy. (p.137)

In Berlin before 450, 000 German citizens he spoke of the wall that separated Communist-occupied East Berlin from the democratic citizens of West Berlin. On June 26, 1963, Kennedy said, "Two thousand years ago, the proudest boast was civis romanus sum ["I am a Roman citizen"]. Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is "Ich bin ein Berliner!"... All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Berliner!"
(Available URL: ", last revised 2 May 2017, accessed 10 May 2017).

I remember the day of the speech...it was my 17th birthday. Like the pride felt by the citizens of Rome, I was very proud to be American on that day.

Now I know the origin of these words. I didn't know at the time, however, that it would be 25 years before the Berlin wall came down.

I get what you're saying about literacy, Michele - definitely most of the lower class was illiterate, but then there's all the graffiti in Pompeii. Surely it wasn't all written by members of the upper class. Maybe middle-class merchants and others could afford some schooling for their kids.

Thanks for the modern history lesson, Marianne. It's interesting how what happened in Rome all those years ago keeps on inspiring people today.

My first thought on reading about the Conflict of the Orders and the plebeian strike was that it was what we think of today as a strike - refusing to go to work. So I had a picture of the poor patricians not being able to buy bread, for example, because the bakers were on strike. A closer reading showed me that it was a military strike - the plebs refused to go to war alongside the patricians in 494 BCE against 3 Italian tribes. The settlement of this first "strike" was the creation of the office of Tribune of the Plebs, a very important office in later years.

Literacy, has two components, the ability to make squiggly lines on a flat surface, known as writing, and the ability to decode those squiggly lines, known as reading. The wealthy, could afford to learn both. Out of the lower classes, some could read but not write. There always would be scribes, who could be hired, to write letters and everyone can draw pictures (some better than others.)

The history of literacy is an interesting one. Apparently the Etruscan language died out early in the first century, with emperor Claudius writing a book on the history of the Etruscans and an Etruscan dictionary. Sadly, both are lost.

The Wikipedia entry on patricians lists family names or gentes of patricians, although I don't recognize many of them. Familiar ones are Julia, Claudia, Fabia, and Cornelia.

Next week we will be discussing chapter 5, A Wider World, pp. 169-208.

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I am curious as to the difference between a patrician and a plebian and a patron and a client? I get the idea that patricians and plebians
refer to different classes of people . While client and patron refer special relationship between individuals. However, could a plebeian ever be a patron.! Could a patrician ever be a client?

What could the law preventing a woman from tearing at funerals as a sign of grief mean? What is meant by "tearing" in this context?

Michel wondered who could read and write and that it would depend on social status. How about the people who wrote voluminous history like Virgil and Cicero learn their learned professions? 6I'm trying to get all my questions in before week 5)

Interesting question about patrons/clients, Marianne. The Wikipedia article says -

"Although typically the client was of inferior social class, a patron and client might even hold the same social rank, but the former would possess greater wealth, power, or prestige that enabled them to help or do favors for the client. From the emperor at the top to the local municipal person at the bottom, the bonds between these groups found formal expression in legal definition of patrons' responsibilities to clients."


It sort of sounds like you couldn't have a patrician as a client of a plebeian, but it doesn't say that explicitly. I imagine there could have been poor patricians and wealthy plebeians in a client/patron relationship.

Regarding the law about not "tearing" at funerals, it refers to scratching at one's cheeks as an excessive expression of grief. Not sure what the consequences of behaving this way was. Perhaps some sort of fine.

"Women shall not during a funeral lacerate their faces, or tear their cheeks with their nails; nor shall they utter loud cries bewailing the dead."

The week 5 thread is open. Chapter 5 covers Rome's adventures beyond Italy.

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