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I am feeling as if Irvine is taking on too many themes: self-image, impact of early experience on adult behavior, abortion and unwanted pregnancies, injustices to women in the early 20th century, mental health, racial tension, forbidden love, etc, etc. Maybe all these threads will come together in the end to illuminate a more specific theme, but right now it just feels like too much is started and poorly followed through.

I agree with you Irene, there is definitely a lot of threads leading off to different themes and then you kind of get left in the air.

I agree there are a lot of themes going on in this book.

So any comments about WWII suddenly starting. Pearl Harbor has occurred, and now Wally is going off to war. Were you surprised by this change of events in the story? What are your thoughts on Candy and her seeming "love" for both Wally and Homer?

I was glad for Pearl Harbor. It finally gave me a way to date the events.

Irving had built up to the war starting with us seeing Dr Larch giving Holmer a heart condition so that he wouldn’t be enlisted. So I wasn’t surprised to see the story go off in that tangent. I was hoping though that Holmer would be able to go though as I am finding.Candy very selfish the way she strings both of the boys along.

I am halfway through chapter 10 but not sure how far anyone else is so don’t want to say anything else in case I spoil it for those who are not as far as me.

I have not started this week's reading, so I have only finished chapter 8

I am currently on chapter 10. It seems we are jumping way ahead in time with lots happening in this week's reading so I won't comment to much till others catch up too.

Finished chapter 10 last night. So, I am ready to discuss.

Okay I've finally finished chapter 10, so what is everyone thinking so far?

What did you think of Melony and Homer's "reunion"?
Do you think Homer will tell his son the truth about who is parent's are?

Dr, Larch is appantly setting the stage for Homer to return to the orphanage to take his place as "doctor". Do you think Homer will go? Do you think Homer would perform abortions?

I was actually very proud of Melony for putting Homer in his place, I had anticipated it being much worse when she saw him, considering how angry she had been with him. But she handled everything so well.

I really do hope that Homer tells his son the truth, you can see that he really wants to.

Yes, I had been wondering all along why Dr Larch was making such a story of Fuzzy Stone with his letters to and from him, now it is all making sense. I agree with you though, Homer is very adamant about not doing abortions, so it may not work out.

If Homer and Candy supposedly adopted the boy together, why is Candy's identity as adopted mother hidden from the boy? Homer gets to be father, but Candy does not get to be mother. It does not seem fair.

Given that orphanages were pretty much completely done away with in the 60s and 70s, I am not sure if we are being set up for Homer to return and take Larch's place. Besides, we are now about a decade away from the legalization of abortion in the country, so Larch and his secret abortion clinic is soon going to be unnecessary. Will there be anything for Homer to return to in the novel's near future?

How is everyone doing. I was able to finish this one last night. Will post some questions when I know others are done as well.

I have also finished, so happy to discuss.

Also finished.

Sheila, when you set up the thread for the next book, I will post a discussion schedule.

Just set up a thread for you, Irene.

So, what did everyone think of the end?

What did you think of how the author made Homer go against his prior convictions with the Rose Rose situation?

Everyone please feel free to add questions of your own related to this book!

Also, has anyone seen the movie based on this book? I have not, so I am curious how it compares to the book itself.

So much happened at the end, it was really a whole load of tying up all the threads!!

I think that for Rose Rose's sake Homer did the right thing, it would have been much too hard on her, I feel if she had had to go full term with her father's child.

As for Mr Rose what he was doing to Rose Rose was unbelievable I couldn't believe he stooped so low and felt that Rose Rose standing up to him was the best thing ever, not only for her but for everyone else, he wasn't a nice man in the least and as much as the business didn't do so well after his demise, I think that in the end the right people came along to help with the work.

I am glad Homer went back to the Orphanage, he belonged there all along. I thought how easy it was in those times to invent a past and 'history' for people as Dr Larch had done for Fuzzy Stone with all Fuzzy's degree's etc. that Homer was able to step into.

With regards to Melony, I felt Homer did the right thing. For the first time she was in a place where she was loved and cherished. Although I had really hoped that at some stage she would have found out about her mother and why she had been left at the Orphanage.

I was as horrified as any reader was supposed to be by Mr. Rose's abuse of his daughter, both physical and sexual. I was surprised that she stabbed him after the abortion, but not before. I know that we were supposed to understand that abortions empower women, but I don't see that connection. And, I was as surprised that this black girl with a baby could disappear in rural Maine hours after an illegal abortion as I was that an orphanage can be run entirely by 4 old people, one of whom is high on ether half the time.

Homer kept arguing that the unborn baby had a soul, that it was alive. But, when the girl he has a crush on needs an abortion, suddenly his convictions fly out the window. Those are poorly held convictions if they are only held when convenient. I was disappointed in Homer that he seemed to do what was expedient, not what he had held as right over the decades.

Of course, I don't think Homer did the right thing by returning to the orphanage to become its doctor. It is not only that I am opposed to abortion, but I am opposed to deceit. Homer may have been trained by Larch in medicine, but larch was limited in what he could teach. His medical knowledge was limited by the time he went to college and had not been updated. He knew one area of medicine, but not the rest of it. Homer did not receive a proper 20th century medical education. So, these women are coming to what they believe is a doctor, but is an imposter. Plus, I can't accept that in all these years, there was no medical emergency after an abortion or a delivery had complications. Problems happen all the time in fully equipt hospitals. But this secretive and isolated facility has no back up for such an emergency. And, now they have a non-doctor pretending to be one. Of course, because he believes that "he is doing the Lord's work" it will all go smoothly. This is not realism, but fantacy.

Irene, I agree with you that Homer should not have gone back to pretend to be the doctor that Larch had invented. Homer is NOT a doctor, and is now basically just a guy doing back room illegal abortions.

I could not really believe that Rose Rose would stab and kill her father as she was leaving, after never speaking out or fighting back her whole life. That seemed very unrealistic.

Too much was unrealistic/unbelievable in this book. This is my second by the author and I think I now have enough evidence to say I do not like his writing.

I agree Irene, this was my first book by this author and I must admit I really trudged through it and don't think I will pick up another one by him to read.

Last night I was thinking about the book again and remember getting irritated by the way he would mention the death of one of the characters in a blase type of way and then a few paragraphs down explain how they died as if it was an afterthought.

I wonder why so many of us in this discussion had a less than glowing reaction to this book which has been so popular and so often recommended.

This was first published in 1985 so it has been around awhile, and they made a movie about it. Did the movie help keep the book popular?

I am sure it did, but I have had this book recommended to me by very different people and pretty much everyone I have talked with about it, has really liked it, not just the movie.

While I didn't read Cider House Rules (so perhaps I'm exempt from being allowed to comment--just let me know and I'll refrain in the future!) I did see the movie and am a lifelong fan of John Irving's. When I read The World According to Garp I fell in love with reading all over again. Twenty years later I read A Prayer for Owen Meany and felt much the same way--utterly absorbed in a world not of my own making. I've followed the comments here with interest and wonder if I should re-visit these beloved works with a more experienced, worldly eye? For the record, I did like the movie of CHR quite a bit.

You are certainly welcome to comment. It is interesting to have the perspective of an Irving fan. It would be interesting to note were the movie and the book differ.

You are more than welcome to comment Robin. I'm curious as to how the movie may have differed from the book. What do you remember most from the movie?

Here is the move plot synopsis from Wikipedia: Homer Wells, an orphan, grows up in a Maine orphanage directed by kindly, avuncular Dr. Wilbur Larch. Homer is returned twice by foster parents; his first foster parents thought he was too quiet and the second parents beat him. Dr. Larch is addicted to ether and also secretly performs abortions for women. Conditions at the orphanage are very sparse, but the children are treated with love and respect, and they are like an extended family. Each night before they go to sleep, Dr. Larch says, "Goodnight you Princes of Maine, you Kings of New England!" as both encouragement and a kind of blessing.

Homer, the oldest among the orphans, is very bright, helpful and even-tempered, so Larch trains him in obstetrics and abortions as an apprentice, despite Homer never even having attended high school. Homer disapproves of abortions, and although he has been trained by Larch in the field, he refuses to perform them. After several years, Homer is very skillful and confident in performing obstetrical duties and Larch wants Homer to take over his position after he retires. But Homer finds this idea impossible, both because he lacks formal medical education and because he wants to see more of the world than just the orphanage.

Homer leaves the orphanage with Candy Kendall and her boyfriend, Wally Worthington, a young couple who came to the clinic to have an abortion. Wally is a pilot on leave from the service. Wally's mother owns the Worthington family apple orchard where Homer settles in as a worker. Homer lives on the Worthington estate in a bunkhouse called the Cider House. Wally leaves to fight in World War II. Homer is exempt from military service because Dr. Larch has diagnosed that he has a heart condition. While Wally is away, Homer and Candy have an affair. He goes to work picking apples with Arthur Rose's team. Arthur and his team are migrant workers who are employed seasonally at the orchard by the Worthingtons but are illiterate. When Homer reads them the rules of the Cider House that have been posted, the workers observe that the rules have been made without the occupants' consent by people who do not live there, and so do not face their problems. Consequently, they feel that they can ignore these rules. Homer and Candy become much closer during this period of harvest and spend more time together, while Wally is in Burma fighting.

After Arthur Rose and his team come back to work at the orchard the following season, it comes to light that he has raped and impregnated his own daughter, Rose, who confides in Homer after he finds out by himself that she is pregnant and experiencing morning sickness. Homer decides that he must help Rose, and agrees to perform an abortion, with Arthur's assistance. A few days later, when Rose tries to run away, her father notices and goes to say goodbye; Rose stabs him and flees. Arthur then makes his own injury worse, and as a last request asks Homer and another worker to tell the police that his death was a suicide.

Wally returns from Burma a paraplegic, and although she loves Homer, Candy decides to go where she is most needed. Immediately following this decision, Homer learns that Dr. Larch has succumbed to an accidental ether overdose. Eventually, Homer decides he too should go where he is most needed and returns to the orphanage, where he is greeted joyously by both the children and staff. He is surprised to discover that he has been accepted as the new Director.

At the end of the film, Homer learns that Larch faked his diagnosis and medical record to keep him out of the war. Larch fabricated college credentials for Homer and used reverse psychology to convince the orphanage board to appoint Homer as the next director. Finally, Homer fills the paternal role that Larch previously held for the children of the orphanage, saying, "Goodnight you princes of Maine, you kings of New England!"

Some significant differences with the movie.

I wonder why Irving decided to make Larch a drug addict. It certainly calls into question his decision making ability.

I also question why he made him a drug addict who was able to get away with it for so long. Yes, the ether did end up killing him, but he was in his 90s. Also, the nurses all knew what he was doing and just turned a blind eye to it. Why? It almost seemed like the author was making the drug use "acceptable" as Larch seemed to function just fine when he wasn't under the effects of ether.

Wondering if Irving is arguing not only for the legalization of abortion but also for the legalization of recreational drug use.

I also wonder what the long term outcome of this story would be. First of all, by the early 60s, is it reasonable that a unlicenced doctor could practice so long without any medical board checking his credentials? And, if Larch could have gotten away with it so long, how long could Homer get away with it. The nursing staff is aging and will soon be replaced. Orphanages are about to be closed in favor of foster families. And the advance in medical techniques should force Homer for additional training which would reveal his bogus claims to be a doctor. Even if Larch got away with decades of obstetric practices with never a complication, at some point that is going to change. As soon as they need to rush a patient to the nearest hospital or a woman bleeds out, then the authorities are all over that place. The entire premise is based on wishful thinking.

I agree, Irene. I dont see the long term outcome of the scenario depicted in this story playing out well for anyone.