The History Book Club discussion
This topic is about
Caesar
ROMAN EMPIRE -THE HISTORY...
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WE ARE OPEN - CAESAR - WEEK ONE - February 26th - March 4th - Introduction and Chapter One: Caesar's World - (pages 1 - 29) ~ No Spoilers, Please
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WEEK ONE - Feb. 26th - March 4th -> Introduction and 1. Caesar’s World (1-29)
Chapter Overview and Summary:
Introduction
Roman Forum
A brief overview of Caesar’s place in history, and a note that the book focusses on Caesar’s life and not how he may have influenced what followed.
Chapter 1. Caesar’s World
Roman street life
This chapter gives a brief discussion of how Rome expanded its territory, how the political system was set up and some violent internal conflicts that happened not long before Caesar was born.
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As an introduction - for all folks - please post a brief intro here for your fellow readers introducing yourself and at the same time give us your general impression of the first week's reading that made an impression on you right from the start. Remember we are only talking about the Week One assignment right now.
I'll start. I've been living in Berkeley, CA, for decades ever since enrolling in the University of California where I studied math and statistics. I got interested in Roman history by reading some mysteries set in ancient Rome, which led to reading actual history. This period in particular is just chock full of fascinating characters, by far the most interesting set ever, in my opinion.
The beginning of the book covers centuries of history in just a few pages, but does it pretty well. I think we get a feel for what it was like living in Rome at that time.
Hi everyone - My name is Jessica and I live in Houston. I mostly read non-fiction and historical fiction - it has nothing to do with my degree or career so it's just a hobby. This is my first book club!I think the intro and first chapter clearly articulate what life was like pre-Caesar, and appreciate that it's written in a casual style (not like a textbook). What really strikes me is that many people's motivation was the same then as now - driven by pride, power and money.
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We are off - Bentley here - Metro NYC and delighted that Vicki is kicking off the first spotlighted book this year.
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Welcome, Jessica. You are definitely right about motivations, especially for the senatorial class. People don't change much.
Here we are, Vicki, visiting ancient Rome, again! Chap. 1 was a good summery of what was happening in the Roman Republic at the end.
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There's something about Rome that seems so relate-able and vivid. Maybe it's the contemporary writings, especially by Cicero, that makes it come alive.
Hi everyone, my name is Mary. I have a bachelor's degree in history, but I mostly studied modern history, and I'm trying to fill in the gaps. I'm enjoying this book so far! Two things that struck me were that Caesar was merciful to the people he conquered so they would live peacefully and pay taxes to Rome, and that when the poorest people left the army they didn't have any jobs or farms waiting for them.
Hi everyone! I'm Eva and I'm from Germany. I only recently got interested in the Romans and the Roman Empire again, after I avoided it for years, because - back when I was at the tender age of 11 ;-) - my parents thought it a good idea to send me to a high school where classical languages were mandatory. So, the very first foreign language I learned was Latin ...and I hated it!! But now I'm all grown up and just a recent trip to the German town of Trier, really sparked my interest in Roman history. (Around the 4th century Trier used to be one of the most important cities in the Western Roman empire, so up to this day the city has lots of Roman ruins and Buildings and can give quite a good impression of what life in the Roman empire must have been like).
I enjoyed the introduction and first chapter in the book as it really is written in a rather engaging style and easy to read. I'm looking forward to read about all aspects of Caesar, because - up to now- I only ever thought of him as the statesman or army leader, but the book mentions he was a priest as well as a rebel and many more things.
Plus I'm looking forward to how the author will handle the difficulties when writing about ancient history. He mentions himself how you often have to deal with a very limited amount of resources. And most of them unreliable.
Hello all, my name is Therissa, I have bachelors in History and my area of study was Russia. I have always been fascinated with Caesar and I enjoyed the introduction and first chapter. I am curious to see how the dissent in the senate played a part in Caesar's rise. I liked how he went into detail on how the senate was structured and the gaps between the rich and the poor. I am looking forward to reading the rest of the book.
Hello everyone. My name is Pamela and I am in Kennesaw, Georgia. I can't say Roman history is a main interest but I did have four years of Latin in school and an ancient history classics course back in college. Funny you should mention Trier, Eva. We lived in Europe for awhile and that was one of the first weekend trips we took. I knew it had been an important city for the Empire and it was very interesting to see as you pointed out. I caught that about Caesar being a priest also and really hope the author will elaborate on that part. So far I'm enjoying the way this book is written.
Hi I’m Doreen from Queensland, Australia I’m enjoying the discovery of history through reading books with the group!
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Very interesting, Greg. If I remember correctly, I studied Hawaii and Alaska in 6th grade. I think they had just been made states (yes, I am old). Rome is way more interesting.
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Hello to Santa Cruz. Both my sons went to UCSC and loved it. Thanks for mentioning the podcast. I put a link to it in the Glossary.
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Hi, Mary. Caesar certainly had a very interesting personality, as we will discover as we get into the book.
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Greetings, John. The Roman army was very successful and many books have been written about it. I'm sure it's studied in all the military academies.
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Eva, I'm glad you've overcome your childhood trauma and hope you enjoy the book.
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Hi, Therissa. The Senate was definitely the place to concentrate your efforts if you wanted to achieve dignitas and auctoritas. I'm sure we'll be spending a good bit of time there.
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Hello, Pamela. Roman religion is definitely interesting and was more of a state function than a personal belief system, like modern religion. I'm sure we'll read more about it.
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I’m enjoying the discovery of history through reading books with the group!"
Hi, Doreen. I hope you enjoy the book and the discussion here.
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Senate in session
Discussion Topics:
1. What do you think of Rome’s political structure? Two consuls, only in power for one year, each with veto power over the other. Senators permanently in office, unless they are kicked out for failing to maintain the necessary amount of wealth, or for moral turpitude. Laws not enacted by the Senate, but only passed on to the Assembly to pass or fail. No written comprehensive constitution, just a set of laws created over the ages and unwritten tradition.
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Tiberius Gracchus
Discussion Topics:
1. Was Tiberius Gracchus the first Roman demagogue, getting the People’s Assembly to pass a law dividing up the “public lands� into plots for small farmers without instructions from the Senate?
2. Did Rome’s foreign wars and the subsequent bringing to Rome of defeated peoples as slaves lead to the displacement of small farms?
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Hi, I am Sandy from Pleasant Grove, Utah. This is my first group read on here and am really looking forward to it. I find it very interesting that the consuls are only elected to their position for one year. How do they get anything accomplished? Especially if they are leading armies. It would seem to lead to instability of the government yet it lasted for centuries.
Hi All - Vince here from New York City - So Rome is always interesting but not always so interesting - but if we look at Western Civilization we cannot avoid having to be impressed by what the Romans accomplished. The explanation so far of the governmental system of Rome and the variations some people made for themselves lays a good, likely a real, groundwork for understanding the intrigues giving a base for Caesar's life. As Eva I too have been to Trier and countless other cities where Roman evidence remained from Provence. France to Hadrian's Wall in England. I am looking forward to the book with you all.
Hi Everyone!My name is Allison and I am from Michigan! I hold a B.A. in history and my favorite period to study is the medieval/renaissance era. I love to read historical fiction and non fiction. This is my first book discussion with this group and I am excited to expand my knowledge of ancient history.
A few things stuck out to me in this chapter. First, the Republic had a lot more checks on power than I initially expected.
On page 26 (I am reading the Nook version) Goldsworthy states, "this fierce competitiveness ensured that long-term political groupings were rare, and permanent parties unimaginable, for no one could share a magistracy." I found this interesting because I would have thought competition would cause parties to inevitably be created, but in the Roman system it was all about your individual/family's power.
The second point I found to be interesting was that the political system was the cause behind some of Rome's weaknesses. I had expected that only property holding men could vote, but I did not know that military eligibility also depended on your property. Empire expansion caused the richer to get richer and the poor to become more destitute. Since the campaigns became longer, men's farms began to fail and they lost property. This caused the men to lose their eligibility for military service (despite fighting a whole campaign!). Due to this system of military eligibility it just caused a shortage of manpower which would harm Rome's ultimate military goals. I just feel like this was a strange oversight on the part of the government.
I am looking forward to the rest of the book and more discussions!
Hello all! My name is Jeanette and I'm from Virginia. I have a degree in Art History. I'm looking to expand my knowledge on Rome and the items that are frequently glossed over in the art department (like Caesar). This is my first book discussion with a group on ŷ.
I enjoyed this chapter because the author is clearly setting the stage for how these inconsistencies in the Roman political system will lead to the rise of Caesar and into an empire. I'm not sure how the political system was able to function for so long since, as Vicki and others have pointed out, it ran without a constitution and pulled from only a very small segment of the population that only stayed in power for a year. The ability to massage the laws and make exceptions based on the man and the situation might have led to this longevity.
On page 29, the "ultimate decree," which calls "upon the consul to defend the Republic by any means necessary" is introduced. This patriotic tendency towards hyperbole appears to be another way that those in power were attempting to guard their own interests. Also, the abstract ideas of Republic and auctoritas give insight into the ideologies present at this time. Finally, this chapter ends with uprisings that appear under the guise of helping the lower classes but that are fervently rebuked by most of the consuls and Senate. I'd be interested in some primary source documents here to give more nuance to the situation since, as the author notes at the end of page 27, most politician's motives were mixed between genuine interest in reforming the broken system and promoting themselves.
I look forward to hearing everyone's ideas!
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The reason for the 1-year term as consul is because the Romans were so averse to kingship. Their term leading the armies in the field could be extended by being proclaimed proconsul. Here's a definition from Livius -
The proconsul was someone who acted as if (pro) he were an official magistrate. He could have all the powers of a consul, but was, in fact, a former consul whose term in office was prolonged (prorogatio).
This magistracy was 'invented' in the last quarter of the fourth century BCE: if a war lasted a long time and needed more than two commanders, the consuls of the preceding year stayed in offices 'as if they were consuls'.
Source:
It doesn't say how it was decided to prolong the powers - presumably it was voted on in the Senate.
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Greetings, Vince. Their system seems to have worked pretty well for some centuries. I think that the more Rome extended her territory, with wars quite far away from Italy, the more the army was attached to the generals, with Marius and Sulla being good examples. I don't know if there was a way to go back to the old ways.
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My name is Allison and I am from Michigan! I hold a B.A. in history and my favorite period to study is the medieval/renaissance era. I love to read historical fiction and non fiction...."
Hello, Allison. I think you're right that the far-flung wars caused the concentration of wealth at the top, with the small land-holder often losing his land while he was away fighting. Also, the many slaves being brought back from the conquered territories allowed the wealthy to farm ever-larger plots of land, with the poor crowding into the cities.
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My name is Jeanette and I'm from Virginia. I have a degree in Art History. I'm looking to expand my knowledge on Rome and the items that are frequently glossed over in the art departme..."
Hi, Jeanette. It does seem amazing how the system managed to last so long, and recover, more or less, from various upheavals. Goldsworthy has covered a lot of ground in the first chapter, and we've only just started.
Hello! I am from Iowa and no Library nearby has the book so I’m waiting for the book through interlibrary loan. It looks fascinating so I am definitely looking forward to it. Sorry I can’t participate more fully yet.
Hello, I am from SC and am a Chemist. I love to read alot and have enjoyed the books from HBC. I'm looking forward to this book. I just received it and started reading it. I read the intro and really like the writing style of this author. He articulates well what it was like living in the age of Caesar. I'm looking forward to reading this book with the group.
Hello everyone, my name is Nate and I'm from Minneapolis. I don't have any history degrees but it's one of my favorite topics. I took a trip to Rome, last year, and it really piqued my interest in the history of the Roman Empire and Republic. This is also my first book club/group read type event, so I'll do my best to keep up. I look forward to hearing from everyone!
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Greetings, J.w. Hope you get the book soon. We look forward to your comments.
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Hi, Helga. I too like Goldsworthy's style. He puts a lot of info into a really entertaining narrative.
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Hello, Nate. I'm jealous of your trip to Rome. I hope someday I can go there.
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What happened to his younger brother Gaius trying more or less the same thing 10 years later, with about the same result, probably could have been forseen.
Hi all, my name is Harmke and I'm from the Netherlands. I have always loved history, but don't have a degree or anything like that. I did have four years of Latin in high school. I struggled with al the gods and consuls and emperors and rituals and well, just aaargh! So here I am, giving the world's first superpower another try with this biography.The first chapters are promising. I like the writing style of Goldsworthy, it is an easy read so far. I never knew that Caesar was not a cruel dictator but actually quite merciful. And I suddenly remembered that I already tried to understand more about Rome. A couple of years ago, I read The Rise of Rome. Hope to learn a lot again this time!
by
Anthony Everitt
Hello to all. I’m Rob and I’m currently living in the burbs if NYC. I am (and have always been)very interested in Roman history and military history for that matter. I am fan of Mr. Goldsworthy and his writing style. I am also very interested in Roman history during the Republican period. I find this era to be so extraordinary, with the expansion of Rome and how it managed it’s newly conquered territory and how they expanded their power and influence. It’s always been interesting to read how the people, rich and poor, were affected and changed by the expansion of Rome and how it influenced their drive to stake their claim within the Republic.
Hi all. I am Boris and I live in Belgium. I like reading about history, especially ancient and early Middle Ages and also like to think about world-history.I want to give you my perspective on the discussion about the impact of the foreign wars. The Roman economy became very dependent on slave labor. Apart from morality, there are 2 problems with that. First, this system requires a continuous series of military successes to bring in new slaves. Eventually, they will run out of peoples to conquer because they are too strong (Parthian Empire) or too poor and not worth conquering (Germanic tribes). So when the conquests stop, and no new slaves arrive, the economic system will collapse (or at least have to adjust).
The second issue is that even with such abundance and success, the gains were seemingly captured only by a tiny elite, and not shared with the bulk of the population. Eventually, the traditional approach of raising armies from the people will fail because the farmers cannot purchase their own weapons and do not see the benefits of joining the army. So the need arises for a more professional army commanded by experienced officers. Inevitably, this army will become a new power structure outside of the Senate and the collapse of the republic should not come as a surprise. Of course, there are many other factors and I am simplifying a lot...
I would also propose another discussion topic. Rome is often described as the greatest and longest lasting empire. But is that really true? Or, in what sense is it true? Alexander the Great conquered a larger empire in less time, earlier in history. The Chinese can claim a 4000-year history, and the Chinese dynasties typically lasted longer than the different Roman government systems. Most of the science and a lot of the technology of the Romans was based on the Greek and Hellenic works. With the horrors of slavery and gladiatorial combat, Rome was not more enlightened or more democratic than many other ancient civilizations. So, what makes Rome so great and capture our imagination?
Vicki wrote: "...please post a brief intro here for your fellow readers introducing yourself and at the same time give us your general impression of the first week's reading that made an impression on you right from the start. ..."Hello. I am Glynn from Melbourne Florida (the Space Coast.) I like to read both fiction and non-fiction and this sounded interesting. I am not super familiar with ancient Rome so I hope to learn many things. I am impressed by the author's style. I have a hard cover version from the library and the type is very tiny but I think I can muddle through. The thing that struck me most about this first chapter was the sudden violence against Gracchus. On pg 26 "A group of angry senators led by Tiberius' cousin, Scipio Nasica, stormed out of the meeting and lynched the tribune and many of his supporters. Gracchus had his head staved in with a chair leg. His body, along with those of many of his supporters, was thrown into the Tiber." Crazy stuff.
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Welcome, Harmke. I'm glad you're enjoying the book so far. Caesar is one of the most interesting characters ever and the political milieu of Rome is gripping (IMHO).
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I am fan of Mr. Goldsworthy an..."
Hi, Rob, The expansion of the "empire" (although it wasn't called that until much later) is indeed quite amazing. We'll spend time later on discussing Caesar's additions to it.
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I want to give you my perspective on th..."
Hello, Boris, welcome to the discussion. You bring up some interesting topics. First of all about slavery - you may be right about the constant need for conquest. I was thinking that wouldn't be necessary, as the slaves did procreate. But that was probably only in households. The slaves working in mines and on farms wouldn't have been raising babies.
I don't know enough about other empires to compare them to Rome, but probably the reason we in the West focus so much on Rome is that it's part of our history, our languages, our government structure and our cities. Thanks for posing that question. I hope others have something to say about it.
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Greetings, Glynn. My commiserations on the tiny type. I'm glad my copy is not similarly afflicted.
The political violence was shocking, and did happen from time to time, but it seems to have been more or less isolated. Andrew Lintott has an interesting book on the subject.
by Andrew Lintott (no photo)
Rome's republic did not have a written constitution, it evolved as the various factions struggled for power. You had the senate class, the knights, the merchants, the poor, the farmers. It was an interesting system. Rome took over 400 years to gain control of Italy and 50 to control the Mediterranean. An amazing story.I hail from Moscow, TN. I lived in Libya from 1963-65 where my parents took me to the best preserved Roman ruins in the
Mediterranean, Leptis Magna and Sabratha started my intense interest in ancient Rome. I bought and played the Learning Company's lecture series on ancient Rome by Professor Fagan over and over again. I read all of Colleen McCullough's series on ancient Rome and numerous other books and novels covering the period. I look forward to this discussion.
Hi all,I am Erik and I am originally from the Netherlands but now I live in Jakarta. I do not have any degree in history and am actually a finance professional, however recently started to read more history books and I always wanted to know more about the real Caesar after reading Asterix extensively during my childhood so this seemed a great match. First time I join a book discussion.
To comment on Boris observation, I agree that Rome is for sure not the only superpower in history. I guess the reason for all the attention is that western civilisation was built on the ruins of the Roman Empire, so actually they are a common pre-descessor (in Western Europe and Mediterrean at least). However living in the East, it does not seem that Asians care much for the Romans with Chinese descendants referring to the Chinese history and hindu/buddhist to the South Asia history. In other parts although there were advanced societies in for example Cambodia, Sumatra and Java, most of the history has been lost to the current populations and people do not seem to care much about it, also because of religious reasons
For the rest, a nice and easy start to the book ensuring some common understanding of the structure of Roman society
The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Conquest of Gaul (other topics)Violence in Republican Rome (other topics)
The Rise of Rome: The Making of the World's Greatest Empire (other topics)
Caesar: Life of a Colossus (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Gaius Julius Caesar (other topics)Andrew Lintott (other topics)
Anthony Everitt (other topics)
Adrian Goldsworthy (other topics)
For the week of February 26th - March 4th, we are reading approximately the first 29 pages of Caesar: Life of a Colossus by Adrian Goldsworthy.
The first week's reading assignment is:
WEEK ONE - February 26th - March 4th -> Introduction and 1. Caesar's World (1-29)
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book is being kicked off February 26th.
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Vicki Cline will be moderating this selection.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.
Notes:
It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.
Citations:
If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.
Here is the link to the thread titled Mechanics of the Board which will help you with the citations and how to do them.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...
Also, the citation thread: (for Unreasonable Men - look at examples)
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Introduction Thread:
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Table of Contents and Syllabus
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Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.
Here is the link:
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Bibliography
There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in her notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.
Here is the link:
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - Spoiler Thread
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Link: