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I just reread Goudge's biography on GR & a librarian has edited it, changing it from

Elizabeth Goudge was an English author of novels, short stories and children's books

to

Elizabeth Goudge was an English author of romance novels, short stories and children's books

Other than The White Witch I don't recall any of EG's novels being romances. I certainly don't consider Green Dolphin Country a romance.

I'm just wanting to check with those of you who have read more Goudge than I, before I change it back.

The Dean's Watch and The Scent of Water aren't romance novels either. Take it out! I'm sure Hana will agree.

Ack! Way to belittle a serious author! Certainly there are "romances" in her books, but they're not particularly central to her plots, any of them, so, yes - Take It Out!

Karlyne wrote: "Ack! Way to belittle a serious author! Certainly there are "romances" in her books, but they're not particularly central to her plots, any of them, so, yes - Take It Out!"

Already gone. Interestingly, the edit has been there since 2014, but I hadn't noticed it before.

Karlyne wrote: "Ack! Way to belittle a serious author! Certainly there are "romances" in her books, but they're not particularly central to her plots, any of them, so, yes - Take It Out!"

Hey hey hey, calling someone a romance author is NOT belittling them!

No, but it isn't a true description of Goudge & anyone going into her books expecting a traditional romance will be disappointed.

Accuracy is important, and I agree that corrections should be made to incorrect data. I disagree that being a romance writer is belittling. I keep typing belittling and it just looks funny. Belittling.

Unfortunately, what I think of as "romance" is the Barbara Cartland genre, you know, Harlequins with bosomy heroines and... Fabio! for the hero. (hahahaha!) Yes, that would be belittling. Oh, good grief, now I think belittling looks funny, too.

It's weird, too, how "romance" has morphed over the last century or two into a romantic relationship between two people and not the traditional quest for adventure or spiritual growth that it used to mean.

I like romance novels as much as the next gal, though I tend to think of them as palate cleansers in between more substantial reads. Goudge falls solidly on the "more substantial" side of the scales.

I have never read Barbara Cartland, and have heard a lot about her copying others, or being ridiculous. Maybe one day I will attempt an expedition in that direction, with preparations made for retreating if necessary.

Jane Austen wrote romance in my opinion, character-driven stories, often with great character development and a happily ever after. Austen includes a lot of social commentary and humor, which is not necessarily in the romance genre. People do not refer to her as a romance writer, perhaps because it would be considered belittling.

As you said, Karlyne, these terms do morph over time, and I think the term romance is changing rapidly even over the past decade, in part as a push-back to the misconception that anything consumed in mass quantities by women must have less merit, less artistic value ('chick lit', 'chick flick', boy bands, soap operas, fashion, romance novels, pop music). And run on sentences...

I love Happily Ever Afters, and, in fact, I practically insist upon them, although they're probably firmly in the romance genre simply because they're improbable fiction (haha!). The relationships in Austen, although certainly romantic in our modern minds, are more than that, because they're so varied. They're not just a hero and a heroine, but they're sisters and parents, friends and acquaintances - actually whole communities. I think in that way, Goudge is in company with her. Although we may hear the story through the eyes of the "main character", we hear also the other sides of the community. There are seasons of thought and feeling and actual calendar seasons, too. What I'm trying to say is that they're more real life than what is commonly perceived as romance fiction.


As far as poor Cartland, what I remember from back in my I'll-read-anything-including-milk-cartons phase is that the words, sentences, and paragraphs were all one syllable and one dimensional. It was obvious, even to me, that she was writing for money. Now, lots of great authors did that, and I don't have a problem with it in itself; after all, if you've got a family (and yourself) to support, why not do what you're good at? But I remember feeling a serious mercenary, pandering to the masses, quality in her books. They were... rather icky!

I blew through a couple dozen Barbara Cartland novels when I was in my twenties. My main recollection of them now is that (a) they were pretty much all minor variations on the same sweet innocent girl/jaded rake plot, just retelling the same story with different names and hair and eye colors of the heroine (not the heroes; they were uniformly dark-haired); and (b) how ALL the heroines get breathless and speak with really ... annoying ... ellipses.

Cartland sure did love her reformed rakes. And ellipses.

Karlyne wrote: "I love Happily Ever Afters, and, in fact, I practically insist upon them, although they're probably firmly in the romance genre simply because they're improbable fiction (haha!). The relationships ..."

"Poor" Barbara Cartland ruthlessly plagiarised Georgette Heyer (among others) I remember reading the one where she hardly changed the names of the Fridays Child characters.

She also ripped off her cover artist who did such beautiful work for her.

I read a Cartland book that was a blatant ripoff of The Prisoner of Zenda, except the identical relatives were women. Understandably, it was one of her more enjoyable novels, but not because of Barbara's own talents.

Carol, what's the story of BC ripping off her cover artist? Those were such charming pictures, I think that's a big part of the reason I kept getting sucked into reading her books, lol.

Here is the blog article I put in one of my reviews. I have a very small collection of Cartlands because I love the artwork.



Here is a review I did of one of the plagiarised books. I should fix up the review I was still new enough to GR that I was worried about getting in trouble for calling a book plagiarised.

/book/show/1...

Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "Here is the blog article I put in one of my reviews. I have a very small collection of Cartlands because I love the artwork.

-..."

The Power and the Prince reminds me of an illustration of Jo and Laurie in a copy I have of Little Women (I don't have it by me, so I'm not sure who the artist is), and I agree with the blog article that illustrations often make or break a book!


When I said "poor" Barbara, I was going along the vein of Elizabeth Goudge, trying to rack up some sympathy for a nasty character. It's the only way there are certain people still alive on this earth that I didn't take out, because I was busy feeling sorry for them. I remember in Heyer's bio that she had to threaten Cartland in order to get her to cease and desist!

And I loved your review, by the way: "don't judge the covers by the book"!

About Cartland... well, bless her heart...

Karlyne wrote: "Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "Here is the blog article I put in one of my reviews. I have a very small collection of Cartlands because I love the artwork.

-..."

& she didn't cease & desist - just stopped for a while. The Unpredictable Bride was published after the lawyer letter.

Cartland did a lot of good with her charity work. Obviously a complicated character.

������ٳٱ��������� wrote: "About Cartland... well, bless her heart..."

Ow! I just fell off my chair, laughing!

Great blog post, Carol! I literally gasped when I read that Barbara Cartland commandeered and kept all of Francis Marshall's original art that he did for her books. What a horrible practice that was ... and it violates the artist's intellectual property rights unless agreed in writing.

Tadiana ✩Night Owl�� wrote: "Great blog post, Carol! I literally gasped when I read that Barbara Cartland commandeered and kept all of Francis Marshall's original art that he did for his books. What a horrible practice that wa..."

I think he (or at least his widow) died in relative poverty too.

I remember another blog post where Marshall did try to get the originals back & La Cartland told him he was lucky to be the cover artist & would be nothing without her!

Having a lot of money doesn't, alas, make you a nice person. In fact, I seem to remember something about a rich man and a camel and a needle's eye....

She was quite the Queen Bee tyrant. I was fired as her copy editor after one book because I had the temerity to collapse some of her one-sentence paragraphs together. Apparently that would have meant she didn't meet the mandatory minimum page count (which was something in the neighborhood of 150 pages, ridiculously short). She would've had to write a few more pages, the lazy sow.

Abigail wrote: "She was quite the Queen Bee tyrant. I was fired as her copy editor after one book because I had the temerity to collapse some of her one-sentence paragraphs together. Apparently that would have mea..."

Well be fair - she may have had to do some quick reading - to copy another romance writer's work!

You have certainly worked with the famous (or infamous!) Abigail.

"Lazy sow"- I cannot wait to use that one!

Abigail wrote: "She was quite the Queen Bee tyrant. I was fired as her copy editor after one book because I had the temerity to collapse some of her one-sentence paragraphs together. Apparently that would have mea..."

Wow, how interesting, Abigail. More stories please!!!

Tadiana ✩Night Owl�� wrote: "Abigail wrote: "She was quite the Queen Bee tyrant. I was fired as her copy editor after one book because I had the temerity to collapse some of her one-sentence paragraphs together. Apparently tha..."

*blowing Abigail's horn* You will drool if she tells you the cookbooks she has worked on!

Cookbooks are among my top weaknesses...

Wait, stop everything...
COOKBOOKS?

We could always have a thread for retro cookbooks. Might work in quite well with American Thanksgiving next month.

Meanwhile I better retitle the thread...

If anyone hates the new thread title let me know. My fellow mods & I did think we really should have a thread for off topic conversation, but none of us got round to putting one up!

Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "We could always have a thread for retro cookbooks. Might work in quite well with American Thanksgiving next month.

Meanwhile I better retitle the thread..."

I would LOVE a Retro Cookbook thread!

I'm quite partial to chatting idly, so I vote "yes".

Works for me, Carol! I was just thinking that we had rather veered off-topic. It's been fun, though! :D

I just tried to start a retro cookbook thread, but either my internet or GR went down.

I'll try again.

I can see the thread up, Carol, great idea!

Karlyne wrote: ""Lazy sow"- I cannot wait to use that one!"

I know, I love it! Thread name works for me, Carol!

Oooh, Retro cookbooks! Yes, please. Not that I own any beyond my bridal shower gift of 'The Joy of Cooking' (1964 edition, 1971 printing) and a bunch of Junior League spiral bound community cookbooks.

I like the thread name. Good choice!

Me, too! I got married in 1987, but I don’t have any Retro Cookbooks- I’ll still enjoy reading about other people’s cookbooks.

I have several, but probably my most cherished is a Vincent Price; yes, the man of horror films was also a gourmet cook! It's a gorgeous thick volume with recipes from all of his favorite restaurants around the world, and it's a beauty.

Karlyne wrote: "I have several, but probably my most cherished is a Vincent Price; yes, the man of horror films was also a gourmet cook! It's a gorgeous thick volume with recipes from all of his favorite restauran..."

Actually, I think I remember my mom telling me that years ago...I bet that’s fun to look at!

@28: Tadiana, perhaps my most notorious moment as a copy editor was when I was assigned Harold Bloom's tome The Western Canon. A marriage made in hell. First, I was adamantly opposed to the very concept of a Western canon, and then when he got to saying profoundly clueless things about Jane Austen, I went berserk. Giant query slips pasted down every page, challenging all his arguments in increasingly insolent terms. Naturally, he ignored them all, and I was politely asked by the publisher never to do that again. Good times!

Got my start editing men's adventure novels (Destroyer and their ilk), and when the pulp fiction publishers saw that I was a total whore and would edit any crap, I got sucked into Harlequin-land and, ever so briefly, Barbara Cartland. Those books made me appreciate the men's adventure novels! In my regular job I was editing scholarly books, mostly about the Middle Ages, so moonlighting as an editor of crap was a relief. It also got me looking at fiction in different ways.

Susan in NC wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I have several, but probably my most cherished is a Vincent Price; yes, the man of horror films was also a gourmet cook! It's a gorgeous thick volume with recipes from all of his fa..."

My daughter splurged on it for me (our presents usually run in the $10-to-homemade range), and I love reading it.

Abigail wrote: "@28: Tadiana, perhaps my most notorious moment as a copy editor was when I was assigned Harold Bloom's tome The Western Canon. A marriage made in hell. First, I was adamantly opposed to the very co..."

Have you written your memoirs yet?!?

About a life almost led through the creative output of others? Pretty boring, I’m afraid, sigh. At best it gave me a little store of entertaining anecdotes to dine out on.

Abigail wrote: "About a life almost led through the creative output of others? Pretty boring, I’m afraid, sigh. At best it gave me a little store of entertaining anecdotes to dine out on."

Well, next time you come to Idaho, I'll be making you dinner! Maybe from Vincent's book or Julia's or even Mrs. Rasmussen's Book of One Arm Cookery.

Wasn't it on The Daughter of Time thread that we got to talking about the sex of our caregivers? Here's a quote from Elizabeth Goudge about Henrietta and her dentist (A City of Bells):

��"the awful indignity that it is to a woman to have a member of the opposite sex who is in no way related to her poking about in the inside of her mouth."

Made me chuckle.

I'll be there, Karlyne! Especially if you serve those cracklins you mentioned in the other thread . . .