ŷ������

What books should be eligible in a challenge?


Just literature in plain text? Illustrated books? Children’s books? Graphic novels? Manga? Comics? E-books?

Open for replies from January 15 to 21.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

This has also been a very debated issue, especially during the Hogwarts House Cup Challenge in 2018.

At that time, we ended by adopting only the general rules for what counts as a book by ŷ������ standards.

As a result, almost all kinds of book formats were accepted, provided they coped with some basic rules like having an ISBN, having been regularly published by the industry, etc.

Children’s books, short, long, graphic novels, manga, all counted. One of the few exception were regular comics.

Concerns were raised as to nature and size of all these publications, how they could be compared, etc.

We’re already discussing the size, in number of pages, and the ways of comparing / counting in this discussion:

Fair counting of books with different numbers of pages

Have a look there and eventually drop a line!


But for some challenges we may need to improve the selection, instead of “almost anything goes��.

So, here are some ideas I’ve been thinking of recently, presented here as a proposition for discussion, as usual.


Format Categories


We could have some different categories based on the formats accepted. We would then apply one of our choice to a challenge, a different one for another challenge.

What categories go with what challenges is another story. Let’s try to discuss, in a first step, which categories we could have.


FC1. “Anything goes��


This category could be an expansion of the same as adopted for the Hogwarts House Cup Challenge in 2018, when only general ŷ������ rules applied.

For that scenario, I have a concern: we accepted manga because it seems that most of those have an assigned ISBN. Regular comics, on the contrary, don’t, so, weren´t accepted. But I can’t see much difference between these two kinds of publications.

So, should we accept regular comics because we accept manga?

Should we accept , say, “Batman�� in regular comics, because we accept it in collected, bound editions? What we’re reading in a way or another is the very same material.

And, if we ban regular comics and/or mangas from one category, should we also ban graphic novels that are stand-alones (like the complete “Maus��, “Asterios Polyp��), or graphic novels that are published in a long series along the years or decades, aren’t regular, monthly publications (like Asterix, Tintin, Spirou, Lucky Luke)?

Based on this, I think that “Anything Goes�� format category could be the standard GR rules PLUS regular comics.


FC2. “Standard ŷ��������

The same as applied in Hogwarts, including no regular comics, BUT then I think no mangas as well. I find it difficult to see any difference apart from the industry assingning an ISBN to one and not to the other.

In this case I would maintain the inclusion of non-regular graphic novels with an ISBN. They are different in frequency of publication.

But if most people think they’re the same form of artistic expression, which they are, they I think we could exclude these as well.


FC3. “Any book��

No graphic novels, comics, mangas, etc. Here. But any book counts: children’s, any length, illustrated, fiction, etc.


FC4. “Plain text only��

Regular literature, any genre, but only books that are mainly text.


So, as usual, please contribute with your ideas, suggestions, etc.

Reserved

Reserved

Most groups that have challenges just establish a minimum page requirement for the book to count towards that challenge, often 100 or 150 pages or 1hr or 1.5 hours on audio.

Letting books that are over 1000 pages long count as two books seems legit, but letting a 10 page children's book or short story be equal to a novel or novella seems unfair for group challenges.

I believe the averaging feature should stay or the groups need to be roughly equal in size (+ - 5 participants?)

I liked how it was in the Hogwarts challenge, but I think I am one of the few that did. I think manga should be included though.

What Melanie mentioned might work well. With a 100 page limit manga and collected comics would be counted while single-issue comics and picture books would not.

I agree with Melanie that a 100 page minimum seems reasonable. I participate in another change and they do have a system of awarding points where books over 500 pages are “big books�� and get awarded 2 points, over 750 get 3 points and over 1000 get 4 points. It is up to the participant to claim the points and state the pages.

It’s not that hard to track and it still leaves it to the individual to decide the type of book they choose to read. They can determine if they want to take the time to read a longer book, knowing their time will be considered in the point structure.

I was a bit frustrated with the Hogwarts Challenge. I read more than 50 books to help my team but I felt I needed to concentrate on short reads instead of the books I wanted to read. I did read a few longer ones �� A Gentleman from Moscow�� but read a lot of 200 page books. I totally understand that these were the agreed upon rules and it was my choice. Not sure I will participate again.

I think a page minimum is they way to go.

I also believe everyone gets to pick whatever edition they want from the ŷ������ shelf. Its a matter of personal honesty that they pick the right one and page numbers are similar enough that it shouldn't matter.

In the end, the challenges should be fun. The lighter the rules, the easier it is to participate.

Also manga and comics, ebooks and audio should all count because they are ALL forms of reading.

Melanie wrote: "Also manga and comics, ebooks and audio should all count because they are ALL forms of reading. ."

Hi, Melanie!

There has been no questioning whatsoever on e-books or audiobooks. No one has ever said they should not count, so, it's a consensus: they count. :-)

But as to mangas and comics, by the last version of the rules, mangas were accepted, regular comic weren't, that why we have to give this point some thoughts. See one of my answers below, please.

I also believe everyone gets to pick whatever edition they want from the ŷ������ shelf.

The usual rule here has been to use the number of pages of the edition you actually read.

The most highlighted edition in GR (the one that appears first) can be used for estimating the number of pages of an audiobook, for example, if that number is not informed in the audio edition - which often is.

Page numbers are not always so similar, they can actually be very different.

Anyway, no one is checking which edition was actually read by any participant, so you're right here: everyone uses whatever edition they want. :-) We trust our members..

We’re already discussing the size, in number of pages, and the ways of comparing / counting in this discussion:

Fair counting of books with different numbers of pages

Please comment over there for that topic, will you? :-)

Melanie wrote: "I believe the averaging feature should stay or the groups need to be roughly equal in size (+ - 5 participants?)"

Yes, I very much agree.

We could force teams to be of the same size, but that would be limitating and eliminate part of the fun of choosing, or being chosen by the Hat, etc.

So, the average method is best for this. As proposed in the other discussion, there will be categories with average criteria.

Hi, Tori!

Tori wrote: "I think manga should be included though.

Yes, but if we can fairly solve the issue of why this and not that (comics).

With a 100 page limit manga and collected comics would be counted while single-issue comics and picture books would not.

I think that we may have a good basis for a rule here. I'll develop this and come back to it later.

Laura wrote: "I was a bit frustrated with the Hogwarts Challenge. I read more than 50 books to help my team but I felt I needed to concentrate on short reads instead of the books I wanted to read. I did read a few longer ones �� A Gentleman from Moscow�� but read a lot of 200 page books. I totally understand that these were the agreed upon rules and it was my choice. Not sure I will participate again."

I agree with Laura here, I also felt so frustrated at the short reads going around so I did the same instead of books I wanted to read.

I never read any manga, but I think it's sort of comic, right? So I suppose it has around 5-6 sentences per page? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Zeljka wrote: "I never read any manga, but I think it's sort of comic, right? So I suppose it has around 5-6 sentences per page? Please correct me if I'm wrong..."

I can't answer exactly, for not being a manga reader myself. But it is very much comparable to comics - if I am not wrong. I think there may be more sentences per page, but anyway, much less than un a plain text page.

What leads us to a very interesting point, which I guess is where you're going to. If we are to be more rigid with fairness in page count, comics / manga / graphic novels are less word reading per page. Not necessarily much less time, because you have to make a visual reading as well. But certainly is less reading.

That's why I like these discussions! :-)

Thinking.....

I think manga's, graphic novels and comics should definitely not be included, same as children's picture books. The grey area starts when you get to middle-grade books... Those are generally quite short and easy to read, but are not that heavily illustrated. I'm personally a bit conflicted/unsure on whether they should count or not. I was also wondering whether cookbooks count? I know I personally actually read them back to back when I first get them, but I don't count/track them on GR. Should those count? I'm not sure on those either haha. Hope my insight will help nevertheless!

Satrina wrote: "Laura wrote: "I was a bit frustrated with the Hogwarts Challenge. I read more than 50 books to help my team but I felt I needed to concentrate on short reads instead of the books I wanted to read. ..."

I agree with Laura & Satrina. To support my team, I also felt under pressure to read short books instead of the books I actually wanted to read & felt guilty when I read one book with over 1000 pages during the challenge. Three months is a very long time to give up reading books we want to read. I don’t think I will do this challenge again.

Hi, Trisha!

Well, a lot of people felt the same. Because of that, it was clear we had to discuss a better solution for future challenges.

What if my proposition were in effect, and you are competitive with any book length you choose? Would you rethink not doing the challenge?

Catherine, I agree on tiered system. It gives everyone more freedom to read what they planned. I believe the average book size is about 250 pages, so that seems like a good guide to me.

I don’t have a strong opinion on mangas, but they did seem to be one of the biggest points of contention in the Hogwarts challenge.

Maybe the rule of thumb could be if the book is 75% text it counts or something like that.

I do think that to count it needs to be logged as read on participants shelves.

I also think a book should only count once in a challenge.

Marcos wrote: "Hi, Trisha!

Well, a lot of people felt the same. Because of that, it was clear we had to discuss a better solution for future challenges.

What if my proposition were in effect, and you are compet..."

I would consider it, though it depends on other factors too. It was sad that a number of people joined teams then didn’t participate at all or read very few books. Everyone has different commitments, & I know you planned to allow for this another time to make it fairer to teams.

In response to Joanna’s points, I assumed books had to be shelved as read & I also thought the rules only counted a book once in the challenge.

Thank you for trying so hard to make the system work fairly.

IMHO, a tiered system or page count system for the Hogwart's challenge would work. I also read a lot of short stories, rather than books I wanted to read to help the team and to make up for no-shows.

On another note, having to divide our totals by readers who signed up for the team and did not read one single book really soured this challenge for me. I doubt I will participate again.

Kathy wrote: "IMHO, a tiered system or page count system for the Hogwart's challenge would work. I also read a lot of short stories, rather than books I wanted to read to help the team and to make up for no-show..."

Yep, the participation is definitely going to change for next year. You were not alone in that frustration.

Glad to hear that

For me the Hogwarts challenge was really soured by the inclusion of children’s illustrated books. I thought the HC was to encourage people to up their own reading, and to spend more time reading, rather than other time-wasting activities. Instead it turned out to be not a challenge, but a mindless counting game.
So I think your idea of having different categories is a good one.
I agree with FC1 �� Anything goes. Your arguments for including comics are sound. The fact that they don’t have an ISBN number makes them no less than a magna, or graphic novel. This category could be used for more personal challenges such as the Alphabet Soup. If people wish to include illustrated children’s books, they can.
FC2 & FC3 �� These two seem to be similar, excluding comics not on GR, and also mangas and graphic novels. I don’t agree with this. While I don’t read them myself (apart from the occasional Astrix), I respect that they are the preferred choice of format for some people. If children’s illustrated books are allowed, then there is no valid argument to exclude mangas and graphic novels. They are both essentially the same, pictures with a few words. Mangas and graphic novels are targeted to adults though and not children. These two should be combined, allowing mangas and graphic novels, but excluding comics and children’s illustrated books.
FC4 �� Plain text only. Perfect
I think children’s chapter books should be allowed in challenges. Mostly because it would be too messy to define them, a lot are borderline YA/children.

Diana & Kathy & anyone else that is interested - I have left the main thread for the 2018 challenge open for feedback here: /topic/show/.... If you have anything to add, please do so.

I think that many members have opinion on this matter but don't wanna confront with those who have different opinion.
I've been thinking about it for a while and decided (in my mind:) that the only way to be fair to most is to go either by rule "anything goes" or by rule "plain text only" (but would allow few pictures in a book as I think Johanna proposed).
Even more than my opinion, the important thing is that we agree on something, anything, ASAP because our challenges are on delay till making this decisions.
The other question about counting books vs.pages will be easier to answer once we agree on this matter.

I work in a school and read a lot of children's books. When I do a challenge, I have done children's chapter books, but not the picture books.. I think we should allow chapter books of any sort, but maybe sometime during the year we could have a challenge just for those graphic/comic books and children's picture books.

Hello everyone!

I don't know if I should post this here but I counld't find a better place.

I really like the Relay Race Reading Challenge, but if I haven't finished a book (I didn't like it) but I have actually read half of the book, can I count those pages as read pages for that challenge or only finished books can count?

Thanks so much in advance!

So I think that there should be points for amount of pages. My reasoning is that if audiobooks are included as a "read" book, then people who are reading to their kids should also be able to use the books as a source. Or why should someone's love for comic books stop them from being in the challenge. I'm a full range reader. I love my graphic novels to my 1000+ page text only novels. What we are really talking here is elitism and that bothers me. It should bother everyone. I don't want to deter anyone from reading at all. I feel that some people don't connect completely with text only (hence graphic novels, comics, manga, etc.), some people cannot connect to the text at all (audiobooks), and so on. So do a points system based on pages. It's not like we can't go and look how many pages the book is if someone looks like they are cheating. The whole point of these challenges are to be fun and by taking out specific types you might actually be discriminating against those who have learning disabilities and so on. That's my 2 cents.

TL:DR...Points based on page count.

Sonsoles, we don't add books that we don't finish because it makes it messier and more difficult to keep track of the number count. Sorry!

We are trying out a new points system based on page count, Pixiegirl, in our upcoming July Genre Games Challenge. Let's see how it goes!

I'm putting this here just because I wasn't sure where else to ask it, but have we decided when and if we are going to do the Hogwarts House Challenge? I was thinking we usually did it in September but I could easily be wrong.

Kyra wrote: "I'm putting this here just because I wasn't sure where else to ask it, but have we decided when and if we are going to do the Hogwarts House Challenge? I was thinking we usually did it in September..."

I think last year we did it October, November and December

We will be doing the House Cup Challenge again! It will be October, November, and December like Sarina said.

Yay!

I hope we apply the new points system because I didn't like last year's system.

I like the new point system we used in the Genre Games challenge.

Yes, I think we all liked the new point system, and we're going to see how it goes for the House Cup Challenge. Nice to see everyone's enthusiasm for the Hogwarts Challenge.

I was just wondering if my comic version of Little Women would count. So it would? I believe I also own an actual novel version somewhere, I just need to find it.

R.B. wrote: "I was just wondering if my comic version of Little Women would count. So it would? I believe I also own an actual novel version somewhere, I just need to find it."

Yes it would. For the non-competitive Challenges (like the year long ones) it simply counts. For the competitive ones, it would get half points.