Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

This is the "Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts" thread.

SPOILER THREAD

For those of you who have completed the book and/or who want to discuss aspects of the book which are beyond our weekly assignments in the non spoiler threads, this thread is a spoiler thread where you can discuss those points. We know that some folks like to color outside the lines - so this a place for them.

If you have completed the book and would like to tell us what you thought about this selection, please feel free to discuss your opinions in a respectful way here.

However, please no links to personal reviews because we consider that self promotion. Simply post your thoughts here without the links.

Many folks read ahead of the weekly assignment and that is OK too; however, you must make sure that your posted comments on the other weekly non spoiler threads do not reflect reading ahead of the posted weekly assignment. If you would like to discuss aspects of the book further along, this is a spoiler thread where you can do just that.

We try to move along the discussion slowly on the weekly non spoiler threads but realize that some folks like to move along swiftly. So we have options for both groups of folks.

This is also the thread where you write your review of the book after completing it.

by Tom Holland

I'll throw in my thoughts first I guess. Here's what I wrote on my personal page. I gave it three stars.

"I am ambivalent about this book as a whole.

On the one hand, it is very much breezy and well-written popular history and I have no problems with that. Big dog political figures provide the book with narrative glue. If you want to know all about Caesar, Pompey, Antony, and so on you'll get more than you want to know. You will even learn a lot about people you didn't know about before - Clodius, Cicero, Lucullus, and so on. Only a couple of the early chapters deviate from this style -- mainly, I think, because they deal with with material that cannot be easily summarized (the myths, the early history where material is lacking).

It's also clear that he knows a lot about Roman society in general. You will learn a lot about it if you read this book, especially in its grand outlook and thinking about a life well lived. Rome was undeniably quite harsh in many ways -- too much competition, inherent unfairness in power distribution, too besotted with violence and gore in some ways, too much about personal gain and prestige often causing unnecessary death and all that jazz.

Where I take issue is with all the stuff left out and, at times, just how breezy some of the storytelling is. Characters come and go just as if George R.R. Martin were writing it (Marius, Sulla, etc.). You don't know much about outside the main political players -- how were armies organized, how did they fight, what kind of money was used, how did Rome itself change over time, and so on. In short, all the things I wanted to know are not here.

Read this if you want early Rome's political melodrama at its finest. Look elsewhere for a book that seriously explores Rome in all of its other aspects."

Just my two cents.

Michael wrote: "I'll throw in my thoughts first I guess. Here's what I wrote on my personal page. I gave it three stars...."

Thanks for your thoughts, Michael. I haven't finished it myself, but so far I agree with you about him skipping over stuff. I wonder if this was your first exposure to ancient Rome. My impression is that this book is not the best one for an introduction to the subject.

It's one of the first books I've read about this period of Roman history. So I think you are right -- I need to find another book about it.

Michael, if you are interested in reading more about this period of history, I can recommend these two, which are pretty readable and not too long.

by Lily Ross Taylor (no photo)
by Mary Beard

And the following two, which are fairly dense and long, are the gold standard for the late Republic.
by Erich S. Gruen (no photo)
by Ronald Syme

Thanks for the recommendations.

2 stars for me at best. If I wanted to read a historical novel I would read historical novels.

John wrote: "2 stars for me at best. If I wanted to read a historical novel I would read historical novels."

Actually, Colleen McCullough does a wonderful job of presenting this era and its very interesting characters in her Masters of Rome series. Of course, she made up a lot of it, but she definitely presents the history more coherently than this book (in my opinion).

by Colleen McCullough

Agreed, Vicki, I will have to finish this series.

Is the glossary the appropriate venue for my comments on previous weekly discussion s?

Not really, Aaron. You can put your comments in the appropriate week, it doesn't have to be the most recent one. Or if they concern a theme in multiple chapters, you could post them in the most recent discussion. Hope that helps.

Aaron I think it is best to place message 12 in the Week Two Weekly thread. It encompasses both Week One and Week Two so it is appropriate there. Thanks. I will move it.

Moved:

/topic/show/...-

I would like with the approval of the moderator to open a discussion thread on the Roman legislation in the monarchy and the Republic..

This sounds like something for you to negotiate with Bentley, the group owner. We do have a section on the Roman Empire here -
/topic/group...
Perhaps a topic could be added there.

Hello Vicki and Aaron,

Vicki I think when this comes up - you should tell the member to add a suggestion for any thread in the suggestion box.

/topic/show/...

Aaron, I and some of my designated moderators are the only ones who set up any threads in this group - the reason being is that we do it methodically and make sure that there are no duplications and things are set up in a certain way. We also try to avoid any spam or irrelevant threads that way in the process.

Vicki is correct - we do have a folder on the Roman Empire where some of what you are looking for can be found already. If you do not find your topic there - then decide what exactly is missing and explain your rationale and what the threads should be titled and we will take a look at your suggestions and get back to you.

I am sure that we could add some additional interesting threads that you suggest but I want you to understand the procedure. Thanks Aaron - I look forward to seeing your suggestions on the Suggestion thread. Thanks Vicki.

Bentley, thanks for the mention of the suggestion box. That hadn't occurred to me.

You are welcome

This was a pretty interesting book, and I liked how Holland mixed reporting on historical events with local color, like describing Marius' villa in Chapter 3. But I was seriously disappointed that he didn't talk about Marius' rather radical changes in the army. By taking in non-property owners (the "head count"), and having the state give them equipment, he in essence transferred their loyalties from the Roman state to their general. Marius, Sulla, Pompey and Caesar were able to use this to their individual advantage and hastened the downfall of the Republic. Also, he skipped over some of the details in several events, which caused some confusion about what happened, particularly with the formation of the Second Triumvirate. All in all, I prefer a more straightforward history without the frills.

I thought this book was pretty good, but I just felt there were a lot of holes to fill. Things you mentioned Vicki and more. It seems like a 40,000 feet kind of book, but I think it could have been even better but still keep a general history feel to it.

I appreciated the narrative style of this book. Otherwise, I never would have gotten through it. The individual I admired the most by the end was Cato. Cicero had his admirable qualities, too, but he was an egotist.

Well said, Kressel. Thanks Vicki for doing this book.

This book is a harder one for me to review and decide if I liked it or really liked it. So much is presented in each chapter that I had to do re-reads to figure out what was going on. And we are given more of the "soap opera" part of the story than the action of the story. I think that I would have enjoyed this one more if I had studied Roman history a bit more. However, it you want to know about this time period in Roman History, you will meet many many characters, if only for a brief moment.

Thank you for moderating the read, Vicki. Well done.

I'm glad to see other people's impressions of the book. I probably wouldn't recommend this to someone as an introduction to ancient Rome - as Bryan said, there were a lot of holes.

Kressel, if you want to find out more about Cato, check out Rome's Last Citizen: The Life and Legacy of Cato, Mortal Enemy of Caesar. I agree, he's a very interesting character.

by Rob Goodman (no photo)

Thanks!

Vicki very good job and thank you for moderating this book.

I initially got interested in ancient Rome by reading two excellent mystery series, one by John Maddox Roberts and the other by Steven Saylor. Both series cover this period and the mysteries are built around actual events and people. And the "detectives" are great characters.

SPQR series
by John Maddox Roberts

Roma Sub Rosa series
by Steven Saylor

Then of course there's Colleen McCullough's wonderful Masters of Rome series, which covers events from the beginning of Gaius Marius' career through Octavian taking over. I especially appreciated her appendices, which cover things like Roman naming conventions and all the legal minutiae of the system of government. We discussed all of these books and the discussions can be found in the Roman Empire folder here - /topic/group...
by Colleen McCullough

I can heartily recommend all of these books, they are my favorites.

That sounds like something we could do Vicki - I think the Masters of Rome series was spectacularly done.

by Colleen McCullough

Also make sure to place message 27 on the bibliography thread for Rubicon too.

Thanks, Vicki, I think I will try Saylor's first book and see how it goes. Normally, I don't read mysteries, but the time period would be great.

by Steven Saylor

Bryan, do try Steven's Gordianus mysteries. They are wonderful especially if you like Ancient Rome. Steven takes you there but lets you fit right in.Gordi is really wonderful.

Great, I will pick the first up at the library.

Don't forget the citation JF

by Steven Saylor

Kressel wrote: "I appreciated the narrative style of this book. Otherwise, I never would have gotten through it. The individual I admired the most by the end was Cato. Cicero had his admirable qualities, too, but ..."

I agree. Cato was the most consistent in his republican principles, and defended them to his death. Cicero wasn't able to stand up to pressure. I don't blame him for this. Those of us who haven't been severely tested in the way he was probably can't say for certain how we would behave. It was a brutal time.

I agree with the comments of others in regard to the fact that we seemed to miss some of the story. Sometimes I thought that Holland was assuming an audience with more knowledge of the times than I had, but I finally decided he was just trying to do too much in a book this size. It could easily have been double the length to fill in the gaps.

Dave wrote: "... I finally decided he was just trying to do too much in a book this size. It could easily have been double the length to fill in the gaps..."

Amen to that, Dave. There's an awful lot of history and culture covered in the book, so there's bound to be something missing.

If you're interested in more study of this era, check out the bibliography here. Message 4 in that thread has some recommendations from me and other readers.

I enjoyed this book, I think the struggle is that there is less reliable source material earlier than Caesar. I would have loved to hear more about Marius and Sulla. The end with Augustus also seemed rushed. Overall though I really recommend this for someone who is not as familiar with the history of the Republic, who wants to know how corrupt and focused it was on keeping it's way of life going even when it was over. I highly recommend.

Michael wrote: "I enjoyed this book, I think the struggle is that there is less reliable source material earlier than Caesar. I would have loved to hear more about Marius and Sulla. The end with Augustus also se..."

I'm glad you liked it, Michael, although it didn't grab me that much. You're right about Marius and Sulla, both are very interesting. Apparently Sulla wrote a memoir but it was lost. That would make great reading.

I enjoyed this book very much, even though it took me a long time to finish it. I want to thank the History Club moderators who brought this book to my attention. The stories about the deaths of Cato, Pompey, Cicero, and so many others were shocking. The lesson of Rome's fall to me was that the consequences to the Roman republic of maintaining large military armies to pacify colonies led to successful generals deciding they are above the law. Eventually there are no checks and balance; the generals seize control and become glory seeking dictators and emperors.

We are glad you enjoyed it.

Chris, I'm glad you were able to finish it. Such a fascinating time in history with so many remarkable characters. Cato especially stands out. Here's a really good book about him -

by Rob Goodman (no photo)