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Hello Everyone,

For the week of January 19th - January 25th, we are reading Chapter Seven of Landslide

The eighth week's reading assignment is:

Week Eight - January 19th - January 25th
Chapter Seven: Sacrifice (pages 193-223)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book is being kicked off on December 1st.

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle. Make sure to pre-order now if you haven't already. This weekly thread will be opened up January 19th

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Kathy, Jill, Bryan, and Jerome.

Welcome,

~Jerome

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Jonathan Darman (no photo)

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

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Also the citation thread:

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Introduction Thread:

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Table of Contents and Syllabus

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Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

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Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please. We will be adding to this thread as we read along.

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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

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by Jonathan Darman (no photo)

Directions on how to participate in a book offer and how to follow the t's and c's - Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

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All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

Hello, everyone, for the week of January 19th-January 25th, we are reading Chapter Seven of Landslide

The eighth week’s reading assignment is:

Week Eight-January 19-January 25
Chapter Seven-Sacrifice-pages 193 to 223

Chapter Overview and Summary

Sacrifice

President Johnson is occupied with his election campaign against Barry Goldwater, who is painted as a dangerous extremist by Johnson’s political machine. We are introduced to Johnson’s special assistant Walter Jenkins, who is arrested for disorderly conduct after having sex with a man in a public restroom, and resigns afterwards. The Warren Commission releases its findings. Reagan makes a speech to supporters of Goldwater, who is losing support. LBJ ends up winning the election.

We are open and ready to begin the discussion of Chapter Seven.

It seems that the political careers of our two subjects finally overlap a bit in this chapter, with Reagan delivering his speech that carries a different, more specific, fear-inducing, yet inspiring message than Goldwater. It's hard to believe that Reagan is having such a huge impact on the Republican Party and it's still 16 years before he becomes President!

The Walter Jenkins story was surprising, but mainly because it didn't have the enormous negative impact on Johnson's numbers that I thought it might. I guess there were more pressing issues that the people were worried about.

"But the country wasn't interested. As the scandal broke, word came from Moscow that Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev had been ousted. Shortly thereafter came the news that China had successfully tested an atomic weapon, joining the nuclear club." (P. 213)

I also found it interesting, and somewhat heart-warming for some reason, that Goldwater chose not to go on the attack regarding the Jenkins story.

Steve, I thought the same thing - very delayed reaction. Yes, I think Goldwater was greatly misunderstood - he was not a bad man - in fact quite the opposite - he just was blunt and extremely outspoken and his views were extreme. And he was not particularly media or public relations savvy.

Once again, Lady Bird proved herself to be a class act in her defense of Jenkins.

If "Daisy" is the #1 most famous political commercial of all times, then "Morning in America" (Reagan's re-election) must be #2.

For sure Kressel.

All, what surprised you about the chapter? Were there any details that you did not know about?

For those of you who would like to learn more about the Republican primary before the Reagan Landslide and the interaction of Reagan and the Senior Bush - the book 41 is quite revealing how Reagan used theatrics during his debate with Bush Senior just liked he used theatrics with Gorbachev. For me I think it was artificial and not flattering but then again lots of times folks are fooled by media tactics.

by George W. Bush

One fact which I learned when listening to 41 is that Reagan in that Landslide election received the largest number of electoral votes of any presidential candidate who was not an incumbent.

This is from Wikipedia:

Roosevelt went on to win the greatest electoral landslide since the beginning of the current two-party system in the 1850s. Roosevelt carried every state except Maine and Vermont, which together could only return 8 electoral votes. By winning 523 electoral votes, Roosevelt received 98.49% of the electoral vote, the highest percentage since the uncontested election of 1820. Roosevelt also won the largest number of electoral votes ever recorded at that time, so far only surpassed by Ronald Reagan in the election of 1984, when there were 7 more electoral votes available to contest. In addition, Roosevelt won 60.8% of the national popular vote, the second highest popular-vote percentage won since 1820 (the highest percentage was won by Lyndon Johnson in 1964).

One nice thing about the book is that I am learning more about Lady Bird and how fundamentally decent she was.

Yes, I always thought that she tried to do her best based upon what I had read but I really did not know what she had to contend with or the day to day things that she did.

"He could give them a fantasy and call it the future." (p. 215) How true of so many politicians.

Surprising how fast LBJ broomed his VP of everything. Times have really changed in years, to some extent.

An excellent line from the book - Brian - so true unfortunately.

I agree, Lady Bird did a good thing, even stood up to her husband. Luckily for LBJ, the scandal faded quickly.

For sure otherwise like Watergate and others - that is what he would have been remembered for.

In this chapter, Darman develops the theme that he presented in the Prologue. He contends that during this period Johnson and Reagan were the leaders of "a new kind of politics in which voters chose between two fundamental fantasies of the American future, two myths in which the federal government could only be America's salvation or America's ruin."

Thus, in this chapter we see Lyndon Johnson pronouncing his vision of a utopian future where he would lead the country:

p.215 "Here is the Great society..It's the time - and it's going to be soon- when nobody is going to be poor"...ëtc, etc.,... ""It's the time of peace on Earth and good will among men.The place is here and the time is now.""

And at the end of the election, p.222, "These are the most hopeful times..since Christ was born in Bethlehem."

It sounds like Johnson had developed a messianic complex!

And Reagan, of course, went to the opposite extreme to support the myth that Armageddon was in sight if the country didn't wake up.

p. 219 ""You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We'll preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth,or we'll sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness."

It seems that every presidential campaign has its own extreme flights of rhetorical fantasy. My question is this:

Did the extreme statements outlined in this chapter really indicate such a departure in mainstream American politics?

I'm not sure they do, Ann. The theatrics, if you will, of those statements are just that....theatrics. All presidents (and presidential candidates) have to develop a theme (which they call policy) in order to catch the attention of the voters and in many times, polarize them. Surely Johnson didn't really believe that the time was coming when no one was going to be poor....it was just part of his Great Society theme. Reagan's statements were probably closer to the truth as the nuclear sword of Damoclese hangs over the world. But the rhetoric was dramatic and over the top. But listen to today's politicians and although the words may not be as theatrical, the ideas are similar....it is either "let's be all be kind and politically correct and everything will be fine" or "let's blow them off the face of the earth and everything will be fine". I don't think politics change much even though the approach and rhetoric may.

Ann wrote: "In this chapter, Darman develops the theme that he presented in the Prologue. He contends that during this period Johnson and Reagan were the leaders of "a new kind of politics in which voters chos..."

Excellent post Ann and I like especially how you used the quotes from the chapter to emphasize the points you were making. I do have that speech loaded in the video section I believe.

I am not sure that they did Ann so I tend to agree with Jill on this who I see has also responded.

Excellent post Jill.

Thanks for the response, Jill and Bentley. I wonder how utopian Roosevelt sounded in his day.

According to Darman, Reagan, with his polish and demeanor of being very reasonable, helped make the far right conservatives respectable in the Republican party. I don't know how much he believed his own rhetoric.

Darman makes several references to Reagan's use of statistics. p. 218 "He used his standard trick of clumping together statistics in rapid succession to make them appear more distressing than they would be if presented on their own." I wonder if people generally questioned his statistics at the time. In later years he was accused of inventing touching stories to bolster his position.

I think we are talking about the director of Selma of having a personal agenda - well I have to say that Reagan had a bigger one. I don't think that Reagan cared about the believability of his rhetoric but only if he was going to be able to sway folks his way. I think that is very true,

I almost want to say at this point of the book that LBJ is a bit bipolar...as the author put it on pg 198 "But in Johnson, blissful ecstasy and crushing anxiety were never far apart." but me on that path of thinking.

Did LBJ, in seeing the person he did not want to become in Jenkins, abuse and then discard Jenkins in the saw way he himself would want to be treated if he lost at any point during his political and business ascension?

My respect for Lady Bird grew tremendously in this chapter, ditto for Goldwater. I never had much respect for LBJ coming into this book, but this chapter has seen what respect I did have for him fade away.

Reagan at this point appears to have been highly effective but yet vastly underutilized by the Goldwater campaign. Although I don't think Goldwater would have won the election had Reagan been put up front earlier in the campaign, I do wonder if the majorities the Democrats won in '64 would have been as large as they were.

I have to agree with all of you on Lady Bird. How nice to see that she was truly a decent good person. I don't think I would have had the patience to stick with LBJ and his rants.

I wonder if the Goldwater that we meet is really just his public person. I wonder what he was like as a person. All I see here is the politician as he is not a main character.

Being retired myself, it seems funny to say, but I am too young to have even noticed the political climate during these years (just a toddler at that time) and then when studying history later in school -- it was recent history so we never got to it. And then I became an adult and tried to pay attention to the current political climate -- so all of this is new to me.

Cary wrote: "I almost want to say at this point of the book that LBJ is a bit bipolar...as the author put it on pg 198 "But in Johnson, blissful ecstasy and crushing anxiety were never far apart." but me on tha..."

LBJ was a complicated man and I fear if all of the president's lives were revealed with all of their warts and peccadillos none of us would be inclined to like much about any of them So keeping that in mind, I do feel that LBJ accomplished a tremendous amount which would help countless people coming after him including our current President. That was the plus side on the other side was of course a war that he inherited and it became much worse - that is on the negative side. But in terms of his personality or his relationship with this wife and others - I am leaving that to history to judge. I think his presidential record is quite accomplished.

Now Reagan - I think his speech for Goldwater was very effective but then we had Goldwater as the candidate and he did nothing but shoot himself in the foot. Repeatedly I might add (smile).

Kathy wrote: "I have to agree with all of you on Lady Bird. How nice to see that she was truly a decent good person. I don't think I would have had the patience to stick with LBJ and his rants.

I wonder if the..."

We all are learning as we go along so you are among good company and you are doing just fine.

I agree with you all on Ladybird. I also found Goldwater quite decent on how he handled the scandal and didn't make more of it. LBJ does appear a bit bi-polar in his actions. It was interesting to see how Reagan and LBJ are coming together in this chapter.

I found the Walter Jenkins section the most interesting of the chapter. I had never heard of him but it makes you wonder how many promising careers throughout history have been cut short for somebody in a situation like this. Things have changed for the better on this, but still too often things that have no bearing on what kind of a job somebody is doing for you interfere and become an issue when they shouldn't.

I think this chapter relates to something that I sometimes tweet:

Democrats want you to share a dream.
Republicans want you to fear a nightmare.

This is what LBJ and Goldwater (and Reagan) were selling - a dream and a nightmare.

David wrote: "I found the Walter Jenkins section the most interesting of the chapter. I had never heard of him but it makes you wonder how many promising careers throughout history have been cut short for someb..."

I agree David.

Peter wrote: "I think this chapter relates to something that I sometimes tweet:

Democrats want you to share a dream.
Republicans want you to fear a nightmare.

This is what LBJ and Goldwater (and Reagan) were s..."

True Peter. But what is interesting is that it is when the Republicans are out of office that they shout that everything is a nightmare but when they are in office the nightmares that they created are the status quo and everybody is now working together.

The Democrats on the other hand shoot themselves in the foot constantly and think that there is always a light at the end of the tunnel even though that light might be an oncoming train.

Bentley wrote: "Cary wrote: "I almost want to say at this point of the book that LBJ is a bit bipolar...as the author put it on pg 198 "But in Johnson, blissful ecstasy and crushing anxiety were never far apart." ..."

Lol, I agree on Goldwater...his campaign reminds me of Guiliani's primary campaign. You knew it was there, but was it really there? :)

As I said in earlier posts, I'm not all that familiar with LBJ's presidency...this book has so far been a great way to see it. I agree that to this point he has accomplished a lot, and yes perhaps other president's would be perceived differently if all the inner workings of their minds were known. But, in the context of what I know of him and the book to date, I stick by my observations.

I had the opportunity in my sports scouting days to work closely with baby Bush back when he owned the Texas Rangers. He had that fear of being caught from behind, but he did not lash out at his baseball operations staff at anytime. He did always appeared like he was having one of those Homer Simpson daydreaming moments whenever a player's attributes were being discussed. I cannot speak to how he treated others during his political office days, though. Just an antidote for some comparison.

The inherited and falsely escalated war would haunt LBJ...and many of those that lived since then. To me his biggest attribute so far was that although Americans were scared, they kept faith that he would/could deliver them to safety. He built that faith in a very short period of time after JFK's death. The man on horseback leading us all from the swamps...his vision rounding into form, and LBJ keeping the reigns tight as he blazes his trail.

Cary good post.

Ann shared this quote from the chapter: "And at the end of the election, p.222, "These are the most hopeful times..since Christ was born in Bethlehem."

I was wondering how others felt about this quote. I find in disturbing but cannot find a way to fully articulate why. I guess at the most basic level it is the arrogance of the statement. I would like to hear what others thought.

I think we find it disturbing because we are viewing it from 2015. I think it is strange too. But in some bizarre way he was trying to give the people hope - nowadays if a president said something like that - we would be questioning his sanity. But then he referenced a wonderful religious event which gives people hope that redemption and a new life is around the corner. Bizarre but probably in those days just corny.

I think people today might even find it offensive. It was stretching a point to the nth degree. The simile was a little too strong for my liking and I felt it was inappropriate But the public did need something positive to cling to and probably thought it was uplifting.

True Jill some would but possibly those on the far right might not - it might be dependent upon who they were listening to. At the time I think the public thought it was uplifting.

Michael wrote: "Ann shared this quote from the chapter: "And at the end of the election, p.222, "These are the most hopeful times..since Christ was born in Bethlehem."

I was wondering how others felt about this q..."

It does seem strange today, but people back then needed to hear something like this to reassure them. They were all still reeling from the Kennedy Assassination. I'm sure that is something none of them would have thought could happen in their lifetime. Not to mention the turmoil of the Civil Rights Movement going on at that time.

I think the comment of LBJ being bi-polar is interesting. His sudden mood swings do seem to suggest that. What is really at root for Johnson is that as a boy he watched his father succeed, then fail at politics (and business and farming). What is really at the center of Johnson is the need to be somebody important. He had such a fear of failure that he couldn't enjoy winning because he was so afraid losing was right around the corner. Then when he was somebody important, he had to be the most important person in the room, in the state of Texas, in the country.

I don't think LBJ was bi-polar. He was certainly often manic, but bi-polar people also tend to have periods of depression and extreme inactivity. LBJ never had that.

LBJ was, I think, very insecure and also had a lot of authoritarianism.

Theresa wrote: "Michael wrote: "Ann shared this quote from the chapter: "And at the end of the election, p.222, "These are the most hopeful times..since Christ was born in Bethlehem."

I was wondering how others f..."

I tend to agree with you Theresa - some good points.

Growing up in the '60s, I was never impressed with Lady Bird, but after reading this chapter, I've come to really admire her. Her standing up to LBJ regarding Jenkins and his family was so admirable. She was one tough cookie.

Peter wrote: "I don't think LBJ was bi-polar. He was certainly often manic, but bi-polar people also tend to have periods of depression and extreme inactivity. LBJ never had that.

LBJ was, I think, very insecur..."

Peter, if he were bi-polar - even during that time period - there would have been somebody coming forward to prove it. I do not think he was bi polar - and I agree with your assessment - I think LBJ was just tremendously moody, bad tempered at times, and had a serious inferiority complex and inner self esteem issues more than likely caused by the failures of his father and what he had to endure.

Here is blog article which I sort of agree with:



And this one is from Health Central:

President's Day Bipolar Special: Lincoln, TR, and LBJ
John McManamy Health Guide February 20, 2012
- See more at:

And this is an interesting article as well from The Guardian:



And here is an article from Department of Psychiatry, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, North Carolina which should muddy the waters:

Mental illness in U.S. Presidents between 1776 and 1974: a review of biographical sources.

You can actually download and read the article here:



More:
by David Owen (no photo)

Francie wrote: "Growing up in the '60s, I was never impressed with Lady Bird, but after reading this chapter, I've come to really admire her. Her standing up to LBJ regarding Jenkins and his family was so admirab..."

I think we all would have voted for her - very smart lady.

Brian wrote: ""He could give them a fantasy and call it the future." (p. 215) How true of so many politicians."

According to Carl Jung, myth is essential to human psychology. He himself became a Nazi, so I guess he liked the myth of his Aryan superiority.

Thanks, Bentley, for the interesting articles. I think a bipolar diagnosis indicates someone is out of control. I don't think that was the case for LBJ. Also, it's not really fair to slap on a "diagnosis" to an historical figure.

I agree wholeheatedly - along with the depressive state - there is the manic one which has a host of other characteristics along with risky behavior. I frankly do not think that LBJ fit that profile.

I so agree - especially ones that cannot defend themselves or have others who knew them personally defend them either.

LBJ was not an easy man, he was a lot of things - some of them good and others not as flattering - but bi polar - I do not think so.

Let us get back more to the chapter and discuss any other details.

This is an interesting conversation between Robert Kennedy and LBJ:

LBJ and Robert F. Kennedy, 7/21/64, 12:25p.

Martin Luther King is also discussed - they (LBJ and RK) actually seemed to have a very cordial and professional relationship. RK was very respectful on the phone.



Source: LBJ Library

LBJ and Robert F. Kennedy, 10/26/64. 11.45P. Excerpt



Interesting conversation.

LBJ and Robert F. Kennedy, 11/3/64, 11.55P. (about an election)
RFK and LBJ strategizing.

LBJ and Robert F. Kennedy, 6/11/64, 6:11P.

Discussing a letter that Robert Kennedy sent and LBJ sounds like he was deeply moved by it.

LBJ and Robert F. Kennedy, 7/3/64, 11:18A.

RFK talking about disorder and violence and Alabama. As well as Jackson, Mississippi. LBJ very courteous and very helpful to the Kennedy family.