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The whole point of this group is for people to stretch and broaden their horizons a bit. It therefore goes without saying, that I for one, would love to hear about books that forced you to look at life a little differently, that made you pause and reflect, or that either tickled or boggled your mind.

Please tell us about books that you deem interesting/challenging/unusual etc. (It doesn't have to be 'unusual' or challenging in the sense of being surreal. We're aiming more for something thought-provoking, or something new that the other members might like to hear about.)

The Nine Lives of Clemenza.

Long story short, it posits that for some reason all souls live nine lives. Those lives are chosen consciously by the souls and can be spent as anything, because souls are just balls of living energy that possess consciousnesses, and those energy-balls make up all of reality. So the protagonist exists as an oxygen molecule, a part of the Aurora Borealis, a tree, a cancer cell, a dog, etc.

Personally, I found the book's cosmology and theology utterly implausible and inconsistent. A lot of it felt like that odd fusion of Westernized Hindu/Buddhist concepts and simplified post-medieval Abrahamic concepts that so predominates in modern Western "spirituality". It's overwhelmingly positive, there's never any judgment, and there is no Hell (or similar state of existence); if a soul does badly enough, they will simply be snuffed out of existence. But only if they do badly enough in their last life, because a moderately inoffensive last life can apparently make up for eight previous lifetimes of conscious and deliberate evil. And no soul ever faces any consequences of their choices or actions in life until they have finished their ninth life. So, assuming that Hitler, Elizabeth Bathory & Jeffrey Dahmer weren't on their final existences, and chose not to be humans in their final lifetimes, they could make up for whatever they did while being human by being kind to a puppy in their final life. The human element is important because (in this book's concept of reality) only humans can't remember all of their previous existences or the true nature of reality -- for some vaguely-explained reason that assumes ignorance allows for free-will. Even though every soul possesses free will in every incarnation in the book. It's all very confusing and nonsensical, and the author clearly believes she's come up with a beautiful, inspiring view of reality, but the theodicy alone seems terrifyingly inconsistent and irrational. Say what you will about the mainstream religions of the world, but at least their theodicies are internally consistent.

Worst of all, there's never any explanation for the "Nine Lives" limitation -- you'd think it would have something to do with cats, but the protagonist never once experiences life as a feline and the God which this book imagines certainly isn't feline either!

Has anyone else read this? It honestly felt like something a stoned college student might write after sleeping through a religious studies class. It was all over the place, while simultaneously being no place at all!

Well, I must say that I have always found re-incarnation a very attractive doctrine - but along the lines of a spiritual progression. There are of course many different schools of the re-incarnation doctrine.
The one you describe does sound a bit arbitrary, eh?

[Name Redacted] wrote: "The Nine Lives of Clemenza.

Long story short, it posits that for some reason all souls live nine lives. Those lives are chosen consciously by the souls and can be spent as anything..."

Sounds like The Years of Rice and Salt is a much better book with re-incarnation as a theme.

Apikoros Sleuth

It's pretty interesting even though it's pretty much your typical Talmud-layout noir mystery whose narrator has reference mania. Like you see everywhere.

Robert wrote: "Sounds like The Years of Rice and Salt is..."

Darn! Thanks for reminding me that that has been on the TBR for ages and ages ages now...:S

Gregsamsa wrote: "Apikoros Sleuth

It's pretty interesting even though it's pretty much your typical Talmud-layout noir mystery whose narrator has reference mania. Like you see everywhere.

"

Oh wow. Just skimmed your review. Looks like the kind of thing not to be taken lightly...

Shall investigate!

Traveller wrote: "Robert wrote: "Sounds like The Years of Rice and Salt is..."

Darn! Thanks for reminding me that that has been on the TBR for ages and ages ages now...:S"

It's a good'un!

Traveller wrote: "Apikoros Sleuth"

It is really really great

I am going to say an annoying one I'm afraid - Finnegans Wake

It took 6 months to progress from start to finish and back to the start again, and I am certain I will be working through it for the rest of my life. It is the richest and most powerfully thought work of art I have ever had the pleasure to discover. It is serious and funny and beautiful and ugly and just generally well worth spending time with.

If you do nothing else - put on your headphones and listen to this:

Jonathan wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Apikoros Sleuth"

It is really really great

I am going to say an annoying one I'm afraid - Finnegans Wake

It took 6 months to progress from start to finish and bac..."

Oh, my golly - Finnegan's Wake! Yes, that certainly qualifies for unusual literature, doesn't it? I suspect it would take an eternity to get through on a group discussion, because - well, group discussions tend to take longer than solo reads do. If I had the energy and a shorter TBR list, a James Joyce group might have been a nice idea - though I'll bet there are already groups dedicated solely to him, and I wouldn't be surprised entire groups to Ulysses and entire groups to Finnegan's Wake. Maybe next year...? :P

By the way, I've been wanting to add a Kafka (heheh, especially since we have a Greg Samsa on the group) and I do remember that one of my friends promised to buddy - read The Castle with me this year... though that might have been my dear friend Lit Bug who had to leave GR a while ago....

But in any case, i guess we should add The Metamorphosis to a thread with unusual books.

great list, Wastrel, and an amazing write-up of these novels.

Oh hell how did I not first think of The Blind Owl? I mean it's The Blind Owl! Why is it called The Blind Owl? NOBODY KNOWS why it is called theblindowl but DON'T READ IT because it has been banned because it causes why you can't read it in Iran see cuz it's like a Persian Kafka except not as normal Why is it so enigmatic? Did someone ask the author? you can't he's dead How? hekilledhimself

Gregsamsa wrote: "Apikoros Sleuth

It's pretty interesting even though it's pretty much your typical Talmud-layout noir mystery whose narrator has reference mania. Like you see everywhere.

"

This sounds like exactly my kind of book.

I think one of the creepiest books I've read so far is Hawksmoor by Peter Ackroyd. Even so, the structure and writing techniques he uses in the book is to me mind-blowing.

The book is divided into overlapping sections set in the 18th century and 1980's both in London. It begins with a historical architect who built most of the cathedrals in london, but in this book, as the architect builds a cathedral he murders someone (to his mind it's human sacrifice) and buries them in the earth and then builds the cathedral over the grave. The following chapter then starts with a detective in the 1980's who suddenly finds fresh bodies near the same cathedrals.

One of the things he does to merge these two settings together is by having the last word of a chapter in the 18th century run on to the first word of the next chapter in the 1980's. The whole effect is like walking, for example, in modern day London and then suddenly coming across a mist from 18th century London hanging in the air. For me it creates this awareness of an almost physical presence of the past in the modern day, as if the author is trying to say that the past never truly vanishes and influences the present.

Another feature is that the 18th century chapters are written in the English of the period, which means with every chapter you keep switching from 18th century English to modern English.

I still can't really decide if I actually like the book or not because the level of occultism in the book is very disturbing but I just can't deny the genius structure and depth of it :)

That sounds cool Yolande.

Oooh, there's always Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? -- arguably one of the most popular yet absolutely one of the worst "scholarly" texts ever written. It's an EXCRUCIATING read for anyone who knows anything about...well...any of the subjects he's purporting to analyze. I don't want to launch into a rant. My review can be found here: /review/show...

But here's an example of the kind of logic he uses:
Jesus was accused of using magic --> Therefore Jesus was actually a magician.

Now, in the ancient Mediterranean and Near Eastern regions all Egyptians, all Persians, all Babylonians, all Thessalians, all Jews and all women were also accused of using magic. So by the logic upon which his entire book is founded, all Egyptians, all Persians, all Babylonians, all Thessalians, all Jews and all women WERE/ARE magicians.

Seriously, it's a mind-bogglingly terrible academic work, literally the academic equivalent of that "Ancient Aliens" show. But it is AMAAAAAZING how many unwary and uncritical readers take it as the gospel (no pun intended) truth.

I've been pretty negative, so here's a book that I loved and which challenged me: La danse de Gengis Cohn by Romain Gary.

It's pretty hard to get a copy of it now, as it's out of print. It was also made into a movie (starring Diana Rigg and featuring a very young Daniel Craig) which is likewise out of print but available in pieces on Youtube).

It's set in post-WWII Germany and revolves around a murder investigation conducted by an inspector who was, years before, a Nazi. In that capacity he oversaw the execution of many, many Jews, but the parting words of one Jew, a comedian who called himself "Genghis Cohn", haunt him -- as does the comedian himself eventually! Plagued by the apparition of a man he had executed, the inspector slowly begins transforming into a stereotypical Ashkenazi Jew, craving whitefish, using Yiddishisms, etc. This proves challenging for the townsfolk as they live in a constant state of conscious denial, attempting to return to the orderly, well-mannered lives they lived before the rise of the Third Reich and doing everything they can to avoid acknowledging what they and their countrymen did.

What I found particularly challenging was the novel's use of black humor throughout, as Genghis Cohn couldn't resist cracking wise even as he was killed and his ghost continues to mock and perform for the man he is haunting. Humor has long been a means by which the Jewish people have dealt with tragedy and suffering, both as consolation and as rebellion, and we're rightly famous for it. But to have the specter of a comedian represent the suppressed memory of the Holocaust was harrowing in a way that employing a more serious figure never could have been.

I'm so glad this thread has started having a life of it's own. There's too many books mentioned to just comment on all of them off the cuff, but their mention is all really appreciated.

Quite a few that I've been eyeing: Canticle for Leibowitz for the longest time, for instance. My sadness is that everybody always seems to have read books like that already - except for me, and I often wonder where I've been these last 10 - 15 years - (oh yes, 10 years of that was spent commuting to an 8-9 job in the ratrace) That would be 8 AM to 9 PM. :P

In any case, also maybe Hawksmoor a bit. Have you read The House of Doctor Dee Yolande? And I keep wanting to read Sophie's choice and wondering if me having seen the film would have spoiled it.

Traveller wrote: "I'm so glad this thread has started having a life of it's own. There's too many books mentioned to just comment on all of them off the cuff, but their mention is all really appreciated.

Quit a f..."

No, Hawksmoor is the only Ackroyd I've read so far, thanks for suggestion :)

I always get confused with Sophie's Choice and Sophie's World. I have Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder in my book shelf at home that is still unread.

Traveller wrote: "Robert wrote: "Sounds like The Years of Rice and Salt is..."

Darn! Thanks for reminding me that that has been on the TBR for ages and ages ages now...:S"

I was completely unimpressed with The Years of Rice and Salt. Maybe I went into it with the wrong expectations, but I thought I was supposed to be reading a "what-if" about how the world would have developed if Europe hadn't been so dominant for the last 1000 years, and if that was its intent, it totally missed the point.

[Name Redacted] wrote: "I've been pretty negative, so here's a book that I loved and which challenged me: La danse de Gengis Cohn by Romain Gary."

You totally had me at "Gengis Cohn"...

Wastrel wrote: "Hi.
I'm not really into the sort of books I guess people here are mostly into. "

Hey, all of the one's you've mentioned that I haven't read are going on my to-read list. Except maybe Hobb. I've had her recommended to me so many times, and somebody told me I should start with the Liveship books but Ship of Magic was terrible. As I said at the time "Ponderous prose and dislikable characters �� except, perhaps, for the evil pirate captain who's only a caricature of an evil pirate and not nearly dislikable enough."

I would like to suggest Peter Høeg's Borderliners ; much less well known than his Miss Smila's Feeling for Snow , and much stranger as well. I don't want to say too much about it... let's just put down 'numbers', 'time', and 'experimental education'.

Yolande wrote: "I always get confused with Sophie's Choice and Sophie's World..."

Obviously I did there as well, although i really did mean Sophie's Choice is the one I want to read. I think why i haven't, is because I saw the film ages ago and although i had forgotten most of it, one specific completely heartbreaking scene from it is etched in my mind to this day.

Ruth wrote: "I would like to suggest Peter Høeg's Borderliners ; much less well known than his Miss Smila's Feeling for Snow , and much stranger as well. I don't want to say too much about it... let's just p..."

Argh, and Miss Smila has been on my TBR for about 3 years now... let's put Høeg either on our main discussion list, or on our sidereads list. The thing is just that I'm going to have to read 2 books per week in order for me to keep up the pace, and I feel pretty nervous about making so many commitments so far in advance.... :S

Traveller wrote: "Yolande wrote: "I always get confused with Sophie's Choice and Sophie's World..."

Obviously I did there as well, although i really did mean Sophie's Choice is the one I want to read. I think why..."

Ah, I see now. I didn't even notice Sophie's World was mentioned before.

Travel said: "My sadness is that everybody always seems to have read books like that already - except for me, and I often wonder where I've been these last 10 - 15 years."

Everyone experiences this, Trav. We've all got books we feel we should have read already while everyone else has. Rilke's like that for me.

Ruth wrote: "I would like to suggest Peter Høeg's Borderliners ; much less well known than his Miss Smila's Feeling for Snow"

Argh! I hate that title. It was published here as Smilla's Sense of Snow. Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow makes me question the translator's ability when such beautiful alliteration is available.

Yolande wrote: "No, Hawksmoor is the only Ackroyd I've read so far, thanks for suggestion..."

First Light is also pretty interesting.

mark wrote: "Yolande wrote: "No, Hawksmoor is the only Ackroyd I've read so far, thanks for suggestion..."

First Light is also pretty interesting."

That does look interesting, thanks!

I loved The Left Hand of Darkness, and The Man Who Was Thursday, indeed many recommendations here.

I'll have to add some when I get a chance.

I have a bunch that may qualify.

Dirck Van Sickle: Montana Gothic behold the pale horse

John Buell: The Pyx weird noir is the best noir

Macdonald Harris: Mortal Leap a man leaps into himself, finally

Michael Cisco: Secret Hours amazingly written horror short stories by a seriously underrated author

Terry Andrews: The Story of Harold I read this book and it was like reading all about myself. how mortifying!

Richard Calder: Malignos bizarre and wonderful science fantasy

John Crowley: The Deep fantasy templates made mysterious and dreamlike

Mojmir Drvota: Triptych Czech surrealism

Elizabeth Jenkins: Harriet quasi-Victorian era murder + class analysis + The Evil That Men (And Some Women) Do

Leon Garfield: The Golden Shadow gorgeous retelling of Greek myths & legends

Tanith Lee: Elephantasm India and the underclasses get some phantasmagorical payback in an England manor.

Paul Scott: The Corrida at San Feliu bullfighting as metaphor

Mervyn Peake: Boy in Darkness Peake says fuck it, Imma make up my own fable. includes a sinister Lamb!

Michel Tournier: Gemini French postmodernism is the best postmodernism. or do I mean plain ole modernism? I dunno

Opal Whiteley: The Singing Creek Where the Willows Grow: The Mystical Nature Diary of Opal Whiteley Opal Whiteley: odd "natural" or cunning conwoman?

Colin Wilson: The Glass Cage psychopaths make the worst friends, although they can be inspiring in their own way

Anderson Prunty: The Sorrow King an awesome slice of Young Adult horror from the worst modern genre yet, "Bizarro"

Kenzaburo Oe: Teach Us to Outgrow Our Madness: Four Short Novels moving and grotesque and morbid and heart-warming

Tidhar & Yaniv: The Tel Aviv Dossier the apocalypse comes to Israel

Thomas Ligotti: Teatro Grottesco the world is a dead, dead place

Teresa Denys: The Silver Devil Romance = Horror

The Manuscript Found in Saragossa

Oh, my, oh my. This is all a bit overwhelming, but I'm glad you guys are having fun! :D Luckily it's weekend...

So many good books .... This is definitely fun,

Note to self must remember -we will never find the time to read all the books in this lifetime

Alex wrote: "So many good books .... This is definitely fun,

Note to self must remember -we will never find the time to read all the books in this lifetime"

...a good reason to become a vampire but which I suspect is rarely the motivation in those books.

IKR? I think time for us to start adding polls to this group. Sigh.

Gregsamsa wrote: "Alex wrote: "So many good books .... This is definitely fun,

Note to self must remember -we will never find the time to read all the books in this lifetime"

...a good reason to become a vampir..."

Yup, my thoughts exactly. I frequently find myself wishing I was a vampire to fit in everything I want to read and do :)

Wastrel wrote: "If it were up to me, I wouldn't add polls.

If you select books by polls, the results are in the hands of the majority of people who think 'oh, I might want to read that'. And then they don't.

Per..."

Yes, Wastrel, we have that. Here: /topic/group...

You are quite welcome to seek a buddy read and start posting there.

...and otherwise, in addition, that is also what this thread you are in now is for. :)

Wastrel wrote: "That's also what I meant when I asked you about discussion by those who have read a book - not whether veterans were allowed to contribute to a buddy-read, but whether maybe veterans might lead a read, since they might have more to say than someone reading it for the first time.
.."

We do let non-mods do main discussions, once we get to know them better. Ian and Nataliya (before Nataliya became a mod) and other people too, did lead discussions for us, yes. ..and the entire idea of the buddy reads is exactly that - for members to lead discussions of books of their choice. (As long as the books fall into our main loose criteria, of course, of being something that examines societal issues, new technologies and their impact on society, or looks at the world in new and imaginative ways -or- if it is by a writer from a non-anglophone culture.)

Oh, dear. I wish you hadn't deleted your posts (which I didn't get to see). I'm sure we're capable of taking anything you say constructively, and Traveller and I are still feeling our way into the structure of this group: and Traveller's already said we don't want to be dictatorial.

I completely understand your point about polls. I'm in more than one group where everybody seems to lose interest after they vote. But I don't know another way to be sure of getting the input we need to choose. Already, this group is too busy for me to be sure I've read every post.

Wastrel, I, for one, and I speak only for myself, am sorry to see that your comments are gone. Although I didn't understand quite how the alternative methods worked, I appreciated seeing them, and hopefully learning how they would work.

Sigh!

For the record, I didn't ask Wastrel to remove his posts. :)
I had already posted a poll by the time Wastrel had posted. I suppose we could simply just choose a book without doing a poll, but to me, polls are a good way to be guided by what other members would be prepared to engage in or not, and they simply are the best way to gauge how majority desire fit in with the themes/books we have in mind, and they also make it easier to make decisions based on where the most interest lies.

The fact that we have roughly one main discussion/in depth reading going per month, does not preclude anybody from just chatting and hanging out and telling us about their readings - we could perhaps look at making genre/theme threads in the "Sidereads folder" - how does that sound?

How about that. I've just discovered that your original post is in my email. Either GR has changed the way they send email notifications (I've never seen the actual text before, only a link to the post), or it's a feature of being a moderator (ETA, must be the latter, notifications for other groups aren't doing that).

So, you're right that discussing how we choose books is not relevant to this thread, but I really would like your input. To that end, I've started a thread here.

Just to quickly add my voice, Ray Bradbury's semi-horror little Gothic novel "Something Wicked This Way Comes" tickled my fancy :)

Karin wrote: "Just to quickly add my voice, Ray Bradbury's semi-horror little Gothic novel "Something Wicked This Way Comes" tickled my fancy :)"

Cool! You may have noticed we already have some Bradbury on the shelf. We could add that one as well!

I have a book that has been staring me in the face for months now, recommended as a must read for anyone who wants to write. I think I will need encouragement, if anyone else out there is interested.

Chuck Palahniuk' Rant

Ruth wrote: "
Chuck Palahniuk' Rant ..."

Sure, let's open a buddy read discussion thread and see if we get any input. If worst comes to worst, I'll see if i have the book, but i'm not promising, k, Ruth?

Thar ya go - thread for Rant! If anybody is interested in discussing Rant by Chuck Palahniuk, please clock in here: /topic/show/...

Thanks, Traveller!