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Quarterfinal #4: book:Stephen Florida] vs. Milkman judged by Jenny

The narrative voices in Stephen Florida and Milkman are both troubled, working through their own darknesses; they are each also haunted by a figure ending in -man. Stephen has the Frogman, always waiting in the wings and real enough to Stephen to matter (whether or not the Frogman is “real� is fodder for hours of discussion); Middle sister is hunted by the Milkman, but also navigating an oppressive atmosphere because of the times in which she lives.

I’ve personally attempted to read both of these books three times. My first encounter with Stephen Florida was in audio while I drove by myself from Greenville, SC to Chattanooga, TN. As such I can remember specific instances of the book connected to specific places on the road, a phenomena I’ve only experienced a few times while absorbed in an audiobook. My first encounter with Milkman was a struggle - I expected the Troubles and felt I was experiencing Archetypal Dystopia instead. I quit at 20%, but then it was shortlisted for the Booker Prize so I tried again, and quit at 50% and skipped to read the very end - much to my chagrin, even though Serious Stuff had happened to Middle sister and those around her, nobody had managed to disrupt the pattern and it felt like the same novel in the end as it had in the beginning. The third time was in audio, and when I knew it was on the shortlist for this very tournament. The best thing I can say is that I made it through to the end. If there is a book for every reader, this is not the book for me.

Stephen Florida sank more deeply into my psyche. I had no interest in wrestling - I still don’t - but I know how it feels to choose practice over a social life, perfection of a particular skill over family - because I was a piano major! These days I work with university students under similar pressure. While reading, I understood how Stephen felt - if he isn’t the best in college, is there going to be another time for him? Isn’t there always one more hour to be devoted to his sport? I found myself thinking about Stephen long after finishing the book, wondering what he might be doing now, worrying he might go as far as dying by suicide, wondering if he found any work he could stomach. I’ve reread the book twice in the context of assigning it as the “book club experience� to a college level reading class I teach - I admit it’s because I was not yet done discussing it. It isn’t a pleasant read for students at that age, but I want them to work through that experience and still be able to find empathy for Stephen. (What is a character study for, if not to fully explore the life of a person different from us? And what better than literary fiction to engender empathy?)

I never found a way to sink into the lives of Middle sister and the rest of her community. The very fact they were forced into titles instead of names, to fake political beliefs for safety - made them very difficult to get to know. Stephen, for all his faults, could be understood, at least that is how it felt to this reader.

Before I go, I feel compelled to confess my issues with humor. I have read many reviews, heard many podcasts, where Milkman is described as “funny� or possessing “dark humor� and I will admit to you right now that I did not have that experience with the book. There is an element of the ridiculous that somehow makes a sexual assault and other violence pass without barely a mention. Is that supposed to be where the humor is? The world is f-cked, that’s so hilarious? I found it even less funny when I listened to it in Pandemic Times. Maybe Middle sister and Stephen Florida (neither of these being their actual names) are trapped in worlds outside of their control, but at least Stephen is aiming for a moment of greatness. And that’s why I give Stephen Florida my vote!

Winner: Stephen Florida

Maggie with your Zombie update:

Alas, it is today that Skippy Dies... dies. Milkman got more votes in the zombie round, and knocks it out of contention for reanimation. If the Zombie round were held today Milkman and The Amimators would rise again.

I liked =Stephen Florida=; I'm glad it made the tourney and had a couple of wins. It's quirky and worth the read.

But this decision is a mistake.

At least we've got the zombie rounds to set things straight (although honestly, I was enjoying the life and death pairing of =The Animators= and =Skippy Dies= as the zombie team).

Nooooo! Stephen Florida is great but Milkman is a masterpiece. Still, we all like what we like so I can't fault the judgment. :-)

Wish Milkman had replaced Animators instead of Skippy in the zombie round, but I'm sure glad MM will live again in any case.

@Tim, haha

Jenny wrote: "... at least Stephen is aiming for a moment of greatness. And that's why I give Stephen Florida my vote!"

Aaaarrrrggggghhhhh. I feared this would be the outcome today.

To me, Steven Forster is a broken person, and while what it is that broke him is pretty clear, it is hard to imagine how he will ever be fixed. On the other hand, Middle Sister just wants to be left alone, but the world around her insists on trying to force her and everyone else into certain boxes, and it seems to me that she resists that mightily, which I admire.

All I can say, looking at the brackets going into the semi-finals and the possible zombies, is that I am a lousy predictor.

wow Jenny, tough line-up! in case you for-some-reason ever want to give Milkman another chance, I would recommend the print version.... I had a lot of trouble with the audio including for tone. You've made me wonder if I would struggle more with the dark themes in Milkman in this post-COVID absurdity-scape. (I haven't read it in a couple years.) This match-up would have been agony for me because I love Middle Sister and Stephen both to pieces... I have a feeling it may have needed a coin flip.

I guess since I already poked my toe out of the "Unpopular Book Opinions" closet with my Skippy Dies judgment, I will now take this opportunity to burst all the out and declare this round , for me, the matchup of the Overrated Titles. I would have advanced Milkman, but only because at least with that one I appreciate its unique structure. Still trying to figure out where all this Stephen Florida love is coming from...

Tim wrote: "I liked =Stephen Florida=; I'm glad it made the tourney and had a couple of wins. It's quirky and worth the read.

But this decision is a mistake.

At least we've got the zombie rounds to set thing..."

'But this decision is a mistake.'

Can always count on you not to mince any Tim : )

I think Milkman is avant-garde. Not everybody goes for that sort of thing.
In other news, I need to get over my refusal to read a book about college wrestling.

Nicholas wrote: "I need to get over my refusal to read a book about college wrestling."

I got over mine, only to find that it is hardly at all about college wrestling. It's all about Stephen . . . in his own mind and in the story.

No such thing as right and wrong decisions in this tournament. Judges get to do what they want. A judge cannot be wrong about which book they prefer. You may have a different preference, but you aren't the judge. I thank Jenny for her efforts and explaining herself.

Heather wrote: "I guess since I already poked my toe out of the "Unpopular Book Opinions" closet..."
Closets are so darkly claustrophobic and no one should be stuck in one. Keep on stepping out into the light and air, Heather. And I'm sure you are hoping I won't feel the need to explain why I love Milkman.

Tristan wrote: "No such thing as right and wrong decisions in this tournament. Judges get to do what they want. A judge cannot be wrong about which book they prefer. You may have a different preference, but you ar..."

Exactly. And that's what made the 'mistake' comment humorous to me. But as Jenny states in her judgement people have different ideas about what's funny.

Phyllis wrote: "Nicholas wrote: "I need to get over my refusal to read a book about college wrestling."

I got over mine, only to find that it is hardly at all about college wrestling. It's all about Stephen . . ...."

Good to hear Phyllis. I gotta get in there.

I will save the details for my statistics post next week, but through the process of organizing this it became clear that Milkman is the *most polarizing* book in this tournament.

It was, for example, the only book on the list that any judge said they couldn't give a fair reading to, and more than one judge asked to avoid it if possible.

This level of passionate loving (and not loving) of books is why I love the tournament, and talking about it with all of you folks, so very much. A lot of people love Milkman, but a lot of people passionately do not love Milkman.

Maggie wrote: "I will save the details for my statistics post next week, but through the process of organizing this it became clear that Milkman is the *most polarizing* book in this tournament."

That is downright fascinating. I look forward to learning more post-tourney. And also, fun that it met up with Stephen here, since I am guessing that must be the second most polarizing, in terms of love/hate for a book.

For anyone interested, I just started a new thread asking people which books from the ToB they think are particularly polarizing.

I think that it's interesting that you mention Stephen Florida being polarizing here, because my sense is that people either *love* Stephen or are lukewarm/just don't get it, although maybe I am wrong. I personally am more curious about the books that some people love and other people actively dislike. But I don't want to take over this discussion, so we'll see if people have anything to say over on the other thread.

Here: /topic/show/...

Maggie wrote: "I think that it's interesting that you mention Stephen Florida being polarizing here, because my sense is that people either *love* Stephen or are lukewarm/just don't get it, although maybe I am wrong..."

*Waving* I'm one who actively dislikes Stephen! I disliked the book, and disliked the person. (I DNF, so maybe he'd grow on me, but I couldn't tolerate it for long enough to find out.)

It's so, so interesting how much tastes differ, among readers who tend to read the same types of books. In this round one of my top 5 favorites lost to my absolute least favorite. But I can't be upset, because the explanation made a lot of sense to me. Thanks, Jenny, for pushing yourself through books you weren't excited about!

(I had a feeling whoever didn't win today would zombie, Stephen was going to wrestle his way to the finals no matter what.)

Amy wrote: "wow Jenny, tough line-up! in case you for-some-reason ever want to give Milkman another chance, I would recommend the print version.... I had a lot of trouble with the audio including for tone. You..."

I started off reading my paper copy, found my mind kept wandering and so switched to audio, but because of the strong accent I decided to read along at the same time. If you have the option, that's really what I'd recommend, it made following the audio so much easier, and I loved having Brid Brennan's voice to add flavor to the text.

I wouldn't say I actively disliked Stephen, but that's mostly because I gave up on it before my feeling descended into active dislike. I could see I wasn't getting what people liked about it and I wasn't likely to if I read more.

I did get Milkman, and although it's not a book I love, it's a book I appreciate, so I'm happy to see it continuing!

Just to be clear, I don't think Stephen is in any way intended to be likeable in a traditional sense. The novel is a character study and so I think the author is going more for "intriguing."

I think one of the things that made me love SF so much is that I recognize him; not in myself, but in someone I know that is close to me. This sort of one-track-mind, dedication to a sport at the expense of all else, even socializing, to the point where they became a loveable weirdo and then, only later, came to regret the imbalance of his life. Everyone he loves is dead and I saw a sad, young dummy that just needed one guiding adult to love him and steer or advise him. I couldn't get past that characterization.

Elizabeth wrote: "Maggie wrote: "I think that it's interesting that you mention Stephen Florida being polarizing here, because my sense is that people either *love* Stephen or are lukewarm/just don't get it, althoug..."

It's so, so interesting how much tastes differ, among readers who tend to read the same types of books...

Tastes AND humor. "Funny" doesn't always mean enjoyably laughable but perhaps, sadly absurd? I now want to reread Milkman (of course) to recall why I said it was 'funny' in my review. (Which took me a time to find because I buried it in multi-topic posts: "I did struggle to read Milkman; and I hesitate to call it a difficult read but it is not a “sitting down to enjoy� kind of story. It is an experience, an immersion. It was funny, it was scary, it was amazing. Why was it a struggle? It made me think and feel and I had to stop to process the thoughts (which tended to lead to other thoughts and away my mind would chase off in a direction � a matter of distraction vs focus) and to process the feelings."

In a letter I wrote yesterday to Teresa, I actually mentioned that these two books had things in common for me. Atypical, very writer-style evident and very author-assured. And both, for me, achieved success. Both gave me struggles and took multiple attempts; both put me THERE. I was immersed. So much to admire and appreciate.

I prefer Middle-Sister, may her zombie see success.

Heather wrote: "I guess since I already poked my toe out of the "Unpopular Book Opinions" closet with my Skippy Dies judgment, I will now take this opportunity to burst all the out and declare this round , for me,..."

I feel the EXACT same way. I'll hop over to that other thread now to confess being someone who didn't love quite a few of these crowd favorites. ;)

I pretty much love this thread. It's so great to be part of a group where opinions are both starkly divided and absolutely respected!

Stellar judgement - fair!  This was a battle of the scrappers!  I loved both of these books.  It's funny that Stephen and Middle Sister are both haunted by something ending in -man.

I feel like Stephen Florida and Skippy Dies are both on the Mt. Rushmore of ToB underdogs, so it seems sad that the loser to Stephen Florida (Milkman) took out Skippy Dies as a zombie! 

I will definitely have to re-read Milkman. I, too, fell into the "admire more than love" camp. But, this may have been a question of timing. I remember being so tired when I tried to read it. That is a state of mind that is, to say the least, sub-optimal, for a book that requires great concentration and effort.

By contrast, I read Stephen Florida at a time when I could give myself over to his brand of crazy. I thought the author executed very well what he was trying to do, and I can't think of another book that I would say is "like" this one. So, that counts for a lot with me, even if I have zero desire ever to enter Stephen's headspace again.

As for the tournament results to date -- once I knew that Idaho was out of the running -- axed (ahem!) yet again in its very first matchup -- I ceased to worry about who would win any of the other matchups. This is NOT the same as "not caring" about the ToF: indeed, this endeavor has been one of the best acts of literary entrepreneurship I can remember. I love that the passionate ToB commentariat members wanted another go at beloved books that somehow didn't grab that Rooster. I have been so impressed by those books on offer here that, because of my belated entry into the ToB fray, I hadn't read before. I have been equally impressed by the judgments -- even (especially?) those I might have called the other way.

I am learning a lot from all of you, my fellow bibliophiles, and I am very grateful.

Risa wrote: "I will definitely have to re-read Milkman. I, too, fell into the "admire more than love" camp. But, this may have been a question of timing. I remember being so tired when I tried to read it. That ..."

Well said, Risa! :)

I am again amazed at all the brilliant ways people are wrong! Just kidding!! It’s pretty interesting that Milkman is such a divisive book. Leave it to me to love a divisive book. Everyone has expressed their feelings so beautifully. I think I expressed mine in my judgement in which Milkman won. Oh well. Easy come easy go. We all read so differently. That’s what makes this so much fun.

Bryn wrote: "I am again amazed at all the brilliant ways people are wrong! Just kidding!! It’s pretty interesting that Milkman is such a divisive book. Leave it to me to love a divisive book. Everyone has expre..."

I guess we've struck each other out, ha!

Bryn wrote: "...We all read so differently. That’s what makes this so much fun...."

Absolutely!