Victorians! discussion
Archived Group Reads 2022
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Diana Tempest: Week 6: Chapters 36 - 44 (Conclusion)
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What are your views?
Were you satisfied with the story?
What impressions could you form about Mary Cholmondeley from this novel?
Please feel to share your thoughts on the book.
ch. 3.14 = ch. 41The ruins of the scorched Tuileries pushed up against the sky
I looked this up because scorched Tuileries had somehow escaped my knowledge of French history. The Tuileries were burned down in 1871, during the Commune uprising. The ruins were removed by 1883.
There was another remark earlier in the book (the funeral of the Dean of Gloucester) which set the year at 1884 in late autumn ... so we would be in 1885 by now.
Well, it’s a novel � we won’t be splitting hairs. ;-) ... and it adds such a nice symbolic touch ...
And let’s not forget that readers could not google the dates and find errors within minutes, as we can.
Just finished the book which I really enjoyed. Probably one of my favourites of the many I have read in the last couple of years. I have much to write about the final chapters but at the moment I haven’t got the time.I agree with Piyangie that the final chapters were exciting with the pulsating ebbs and flows of Di’s emotions (like those ‘yellow waves� at Brighton) a highlight for me.
I liked the ending because all the main characters played their part in the resolution. Some might argue that there was a degree of contrivance in getting John and Di back together, but I see it as cleverness on the part of the author in the way each character’s fate was determined and contributed to the dénouement .
For the moment I’d like to mention two things. The first was John’s meeting with Madeleine in Archie’s apartment. John’s emphatic words to her, ’He’s not worth it!� have been used countless times since then in novels, films, and tv soaps/dramas. However I don’t remember such blunt advice given to the wife of a Lord in other Victorian novels I have read, so I wonder if the author began a trend with those words.
My second thought was about Di and the fact that she asked John to marry her. I can only think of one other Victorian novel where the woman asks the man to marry her and that is ( spoiler coming - hint -it is a novel by one of the Brontë sisters) (view spoiler). So one early Victorian novel and one late. There may be more but I haven’t read them.
I will not comment on the segment, or the book, as a whole yet. There are too many delicious quotes in these last chapters to relish first. [Di] � who was beginning to discover what a continual bottling up and corking down of effervescent irritation is comprised under the name of patience.
Another one of those prized female qualities examined in close-up, and de-mystified.
There is, but men are fortunately not in a position to be aware of it, a lamentable uniformity in their manner of opening up certain subjects. ... "It is no good beating about the bush," said Lord Hemsworth at last, after he had beaten it till there was, so to speak, nothing left of it.
Hilarious comments on men from women's perspective. ... I wish there were more of this: those Victorian gentlemen in suits and top hats, so pompous and dignified and full of themselves, as we know them from photos of the period, just waited to be ridiculed by the sharp female pen.
Perhaps, inasmuch as that, untempted, she had sold herself for diamonds and position, instead of, under strong temptation, for the bare necessities of life like her poorer sisters, she was more degraded than they; but fortunately for her, and many others in our midst, society upheld her.
Ch. passes a final, and severe, judgement on Madeleine: marriage for money and position is prostitution, or worse, because real prostitutes do it to survive, and adultery is the logical next step.
it had never struck him that she would be unhappy. When he saw her he had suddenly realized that the same emotions which had rent his soul had left their imprint on her face. Could women really love like men? Could Di actually, after her own fashion, feel towards him one tithe of the love he felt for her?
Even John who wants Di to love him, at the cost of her friendship and “being liked� by her, cannot really believe that she is capable of love - and it seems he would be satisfied with “one tithe�.
Who has not experienced it, that fierce depression and loathing of all life, which, though at the time we know it not, is only the writhing and fainting of the starved human affections! The very ordinary sources from which the sharpest suffering springs, shows us later on how narrow are the limits within which our common human nature works, and from which yet irradiate such diversities of pain.
I had to read this paragraph several times and still am not sure whether I understand. I like very much in Cholmondeley that she tries hard to find her own genuine descriptions of emotional states,, off the beaten track of conventional naming of feelings.
Can you help me please? - Here's a word I don't understand: She went out to her old friends, the yellow waves, and, too exhausted to walk, sat down under the lee of one of the high wooden rivets between which the sea licks the pebbly shore into grooves.
What does "rivet" mean in this context? The dictionary entries I find make no sense.
sabagrey wrote: "Can you help me please? - Here's a word I don't understand: She went out to her old friends, the yellow waves, and, too exhausted to walk, sat down under the lee of one of the high wooden rivets ..
What does "rivet" mean in this context? The dictionary entries I find make no sense.."
I could be wrong but I think that Mary Cholmondeley is referring to the wooden groynes that helped to stop the pebbles being moved along the beach by the action of the waves. They were placed about 100 metres apart at right angles to the shore. Most have now been replaced by concrete structures.
Here is a photo of one of them at Brighton.
Trev wrote: "I could be wrong but I think that Mary Cholmondeley is referring to the wooden groynes that helped to stop the pebbles being moved along the beach by the action of the waves. ."OHHHH! Thank you, that makes perfect sense! I'm an ignorant inland creature and had to look up "groyne" as well - but at least that can be found. I did not know the translated word even in my mother tongue ...
Mod
I'm glad the book turned out to be one of your favourites. I can see why it was so. There is so much richness in that short work. And I'm sure I missed a lot in my first reading. I certainly will reread it at a future point when I can give it more time.
About the second point you've raised in your comment, it was then not the acceptable custom that a woman should propose to a man. It was the other way around. But Diana is not a model Victorian woman. She is more modern in her views. So it's natural that she would be taking things into her hand when she certainly knows that even though he loves her, John wouldn't make an offer to her, given his precarious position.
When I read this, I thought this is the first time I'd seen a woman proposing in a Victorian novel. I have quite forgotten The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. Thanks for refreshing my memory, Trev. :)
Mod
The ending: I have to say that the end feels a bit contrived to me. � I can live with the Victorian style dramatic showdown with a number of corpses, plus inheritance, which puts all obstacles miraculously, and with a sense of “higher justice�, out of the way. The stark symbolism of Archie’s hair (we have seen his special relation to hair before, and his hair is mentioned almost every time he appears) - where the very “Tempest hair� becomes his downfall because it is taken for fake, so that it is the wrong-true-wrong-true Tempest who is killed - seems almost over the top. And the finale � it’s clear that Cholmondeley wanted it to take place in Overleigh, the significant place. But are we to believe that John and Di spend a long nightwatch in Brighton, plus a train ride to London, together, without talking to each other, and realising where they stand?
A word about Mitty:
Her character has never been prominent in our discussion, that is why I would like to add a word about her. Cholmondeley paints her with so much love, through her words and actions. Her small world, her devotion, the narrow limits within which she understands what happens, how, for her, the drama boils down to packing an old rocking horse � It is very fitting that the postscriptum is about her.
The book as a whole:
I don’t hesitate to confess that I simply love this book. The characters, the themes, the drama, the details, the language: there is nothing that I don’t like. It is a new entry in my private list of “all-time favourites�.
My sample of British Victorian literature is small as yet. But I have found that the books I really like are all written by women, - regardless of fame and canons. And I would like to invite Mary Cholmondeley to that ongoing tea party in my mind, where these ladies gather. Oh, they differ in their views, and they argue - but I can be sure that they will do it elegantly, and in style, and with many entertaining barbs.
The discussion:
I have enjoyed this group read more than any before. Thank you all for the invaluable context information - with gorgeous pictures! - and the great discussion.
Piyangie wrote: "A lot happens in this final segment. And personally, it was the most exciting to me. :) I really enjoyed the turn of events and I'm pleased with the kind of orthodox ending that Cholmondeley has ta..What impressions could you form about Mary Cholmondeley from this novel?."
In this final section Mary Cholmondeley sharpened her claws and attacked with ferocity all the men and women who she felt had fallen below her moral standards. They were ripped apart by her cutting statements and dialogue, delivered through her characters and her plot. Even the ones who survived were mercilessly shamed.
It was left to Mitty to try to mitigate John’s mother’s actions, but even her deathbed repentance was soured by the fact that she had loved such a reprehensible character as Lord Frederick Fane.
It was John who dealt with him with such a tongue-lashing that the cowardly Lord feared for his life. Hopefully Lord Fane will continue to tremble in the wake of John and Di’s union.
Even the kindness of Diana couldn’t hide the fact that the author was laying into Lord Hemsworth during his protracted proposal. She ridiculed him mercilessly with this being my favourite quote�.
� "I would take the risk," said Lord Hemsworth, who held, in common with most men, the rooted conviction that a woman will become attached to any husband, however little she cares for her lover.�
The most vicious non fatal attack was reserved for Madeleine. Again John was kindness itself as he tried to persuade her to leave Archie’s flat and go home. But it was masterful the way in which the author provided her with superficial and lame excuses for being there before branding her as worse than a prostitute in no uncertain terms.
’He opened the door. She drew a long cloak over her shoulders and passed him without speaking, looking like what she was—one of that class whose very existence she professed to ignore, but whose ranks she had virtually joined when she announced her engagement to Sir Henry in the Morning Post……�
………she had sold herself for diamonds and position, instead of, under strong temptation, for the bare necessities of life like her poorer sisters, she was more degraded than they; but fortunately for her, and many others in our midst, society upheld her.�
(this quote is well worth repeating, sabagrey)
The most intriguing element of the ending for me was the murder of Archie. Am I right to conclude that because John denied he was a Tempest when approached by strangers in the Parisian street this indirectly led to Archie being mistaken for him in the darkness and subsequently killed?
If so there is a perfect irony regarding Colonel Tempest’s bet coming back to literally kill him also (when he heard of Archie’s death), and thus transporting John back to Overleigh via Di’s offer of marriage.
Both Archie and the colonel were despatched with such severity and so little compassion that the chilling message seemed to be that those who live such wanton lives will get their just rewards.
As with all the best stories I was left wanting to know more about how Diana and John would continue their lives. How would their relationship develop and in what ways might they circumvent the mire that was the society that surrounded them?
I have already read ‘Red Pottage� which was good but in my opinion not quite as good as this one, and I hope to read the rest of her novels and short stories if time will allow.
Like sabagrey, I thoroughly enjoyed the reading this book with the group. The comments and opinions really enhanced my appreciation of the many excellent qualities this novel had to offer. So thank you to all those who contributed and to Piyangie for providing such an engaging read.
Trev wrote: "The most intriguing element of the ending for me was the murder of Archie. Am I right to conclude that because John denied he was a Tempest when approached by strangers in the Parisian street this indirectly led to Archie being mistaken for him in the darkness and subsequently killed?."Oh yes, it's so wonderfully twisted and symbolic - with a full measure of 'irony of fate':
- John denies he is a Tempest for the first time, sticking to his decision.
- The victim must have been described as dark-haired to the killers.
. The "typical Tempest hair" is taken to be a wig and this is why
- Archie is identified as the (under the wig dark-haired) Tempest to kill. (Trev: no "mistake in the darkness" - it's dawn!)
Add to this the irony of how this mistake leads to Colonel Tempest's death ... who, significantly, mixes up John and Archie.
Add to this also that throughout the novel we get lots of remarks about hair: John's non-descript dark hair, Archie's white-blond hair (repeatedly), even that it looks like a wig, his collection of ladies' locks vs. the one lock Mitty keeps of John's hair. Cholmondeley leaves lots of clues to prepare us for the ending, but who could have guessed how it turns out?
I agree that I liked this book more than 'Red Pottage' - why? Simply for the happy end and the romance? Or because Cholmondeley focused so much more on the 'tainted' characters, leaving the 'good' ones aside? I will re-read it, and read Cholmondeley's other works, too.
Like you, Trev, I wanted to know more about the protagonists' future. There is a very practical first obstacle for them: Di would have to go into mourning and could not marry - for a year, I guess. Apart from that, I would not worry about their being 'damaged' by society: they are both strong and self-reliant. And who cares that people will naturally assume that Di has married for wealth and position - just as expected of any woman?
Mod
I agree with Trev that the most intriguing part of this segment is Archie's death. Chilling when you think that John was saved by a hair's breadth. He denounced him in time. Poor Archie. He had to be the victim of the "debt" that was so thoughtlessly entered by his father. And as to Colonel Tempest, poor man, he had to live to learn that his beloved son has become the victim of his schemes. And that too when he has finally inherited the wealth. There is the irony.
And like Trev and sabagrey, I too wish to have known more about Di and John's future together. The short postscript was more of a tribute to Mitty. An epilogue touching on the protagonist's future would have been a wonderful addition.
Piyangie wrote: " Chilling when you think that John was saved by a hair's breadth."You made my day!
You nailed it with "by a hair's breadth" - so very much to the point, the whole plot twist being about hair ...
Mod
You made my day!
You nailed it with "by a hair's breadth" - so very much to the point, the whole plot twist be..."
Yes, indeed! But that interpretation never entered my mind when I wrote it. Thank you. :)
I thought it would be fitting to celebrate Mary’s novel by posting a link to a photograph of her which is held at the National Portrait Gallery in London. The details state that it was taken in the early 1900s.
Mod
Did I see Baker Street? Have a different recollection with that famous street. :) Thanks, Trev. It's a nice portrait.
Piyangie wrote: "Trev wrote: "I thought it would be fitting to celebrate Mary’s novel by posting a link to a photograph of her which is held at the National Portrait Gallery in London. The details state that it was..."I hadn’t noticed the name of the street, but when I tried to find out if 55 Baker Street still existed, I came across this fascinating article about the ‘Baker Street Bazaar.�
The Bazaar was owned by the Boulnois brothers and here is a paragraph from the article with a possible Arthur Conan Doyle connection……�
� Born to a French emigré family, Boulnois became squire of Gestingthorpe in Essex, where he died in 1862. Thereafter the Bazaar was run in partnership by two of his sons, William Allen Boulnois, architect and surveyor, and Edmund, who became a prominent figure in Marylebone as a businessman and in many public roles, including JP, Guardian of the Poor, LCC member and Conservative MP. Percy Boulnois, another brother, became the borough engineer of Portsmouth and a close friend of Arthur Conan Doyle. As Doyle’s biographer Andrew Lycett suggests, although the Bazaar never figures in the Sherlock Holmes stories, the Boulnois connection may have prompted the choice of Baker Street as Holmes’s address.�
Towards the end of the article is a plan of the bazaar which shows an outline of 55 Baker Street which is next door to some artists� studios. I think the whole article is worth a read for anyone interested in Victorian London.
Trev wrote: "I thought it would be fitting to celebrate Mary’s novel by posting a link to a photograph of her which is held at the National Portrait Gallery in London. The details state that it was taken in the..."Oh, thank you very much, this photograph is lovely. I can relate to her. I can see her at her desk writing the words we have just read, with a little irony sitting in the corners of her mouth. <3<3<3
Mod
In a later preface to a short story collection, Mary Cholmondeley wrote this - about 'Diana Tempest', in particular about 'Madeleine': The book was finished, sold, finally corrected, and in the press when one of the young women who had unconsciously contributed a trait to the character became affianced. She immediately began throwing off with great dignity, as if by clock-work, all the best things which I had evolved out of my own brain and had put into the mouth of my female prig. At first I was delighted with my own cleverness, but gradually I became more and more uneasy, and when I attended the wedding my heart failed me altogether. In "Diana Tempest" I had described the rich, elderly, stout, and gouty bridegroom whom the lady had captured. There he was before my panic-stricken eyes!
Mod
The book was finished, sold, finally corrected, and in the p..."
This is hilarious! Thanks for sharing, sabagrey!
On second thought, why do I get this feeling that there is something in this quote that doesn't meet the eye?
Piyangie wrote: "On second thought, why do I get this feeling that there is something in this quote that doesn't meet the eye? ."would be interesting if you could find that out ...
I have just finished reading that short story collection. Her preface focused on the accusation by a number of readers and reviewers that Mary Cholmondeley’s characters were based on actual individual people ( including, in one instance, a suggestion that a vicar had jilted her and she was getting revenge.) Mary was at pains to point out that her characters were formed following the author’s observation of many people who had similar character traits. She used the traits of many to form a single character. Interestingly in the preface, Mary described Madeleine
like this�..
� One of the characters, a very worldly religious young female prig, was much in my mind. I know many such.�
Like sabagrey I had highlighted that whole passage and found the preface as well as the short stories (The Lowest Rung; Together with The Hand on the Latch, St. Luke's Summer and The Understudy) extremely interesting.
Incidentally, I have also just completed The Danvers Jewels and Sir Charles Danvers her first two published novels. I found ‘Sir Charles Danvers,� although not as mature a work as Diana Tempest, a thoroughly good read with one of her trademark twisty plots, whereas The Danvers Jewels was more of a novella and perhaps would have been better if it had been longer.
Trev wrote: "II have also just completed The Danvers Jewels and Sir Charles Danvers her first two published novels. .."So did I :-))) - and I fully agree with your opinion. I find it interesting to compare the heroines - Ruth Deyncourt and Diana Tempest: lots of similarities, interesting differences.
Mod
Victorians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Lowest Rung; Together with The Hand on the Latch, St. Luke's Summer and The Understudy (other topics)The Danvers Jewels (other topics)
Sir Charles Danvers (other topics)
The Tenant of Wildfell Hall (other topics)
The Tenant of Wildfell Hall (other topics)
John's mental struggle at having to renounce his identity is beautifully described by the author. It was heartbreaking. Having to give up his ambitions and a future with Diana hurts him a lot. And there is the additional responsibility of taking care of Mitty.
With the present knowledge, John is unable to court Diana and keeps away from her. After an absence of two months from any letter or visit from John, Diana questions whether she fully understood John's affection for her. Mrs. Courteney is of the opinion that they may have misjudged John's intentions, and Diana finally decides to bury her love for him.
Meanwhile, Lord Hemsworth visits John and inquires whether he and Diana are engaged. Upon learning they are not, he informs John of trying his suit with her. But unfortunately for Lord Hemsworth, Diana is a woman who can only fall in love once and for all. She may say proudly that she's buried her love. Nevertheless, her heart will always care for John.
John goes to meet his true father, Lord Frederick Fane and informs him of his knowledge about his relationship with John's mother. John also informs him of his decision to give up his name, title, and estate. Lord Frederick is angry and disowns him much to the relief of John.
Since John has agreed to run for the Parliament, he feels it necessary to inform the calamity to the Lord who supported his cause. Since the Lord is in Paris on business, he goes to Paris. The Lord is much dismayed by the turn of events. John takes the opportunity to seek a favour to obtain a Job for him to support himself and Mitty, but this request is received with lukewarm enthusiasm.
John decides to take Archie with him on his trip to Paris having caught Lady Verslet in Archie's private lodgings. Archie with very much reluctance accompanies John. Meanwhile, John communicates to Colonel Tempest his decision through a letter. And having posted the letter from Paris, he tells Archie the truth.
Archie decides to amuse himself while in Paris and goes to attend a party of a lady acquaintance of his. When he doesn't return the next day, John becomes worried. Later in the day, John learns the grim truth of Archie's death. The "bet" has finally closed, sealing not John's but Archie's life.
Meanwhile, Colonel Tempest, who having recovered from the injury he sustained from the accidental firing of his revolver, becomes much agitated by the news. He is too excited and is making plans on what he'd do with newly inherited wealth all the while complaining about what he lost for 20 years and how meanly John treated them during those 20 years.
The effect this news produces on Diana is totally different from her father. She finally realizes the cause of John's silence. She is certain that John still loves her, and her love for him is rekindled. The love buried, rise from the grave.
Colonel Tempest's happy excitement doesn't live long. He receives a telegram informing him of Archie's death, and his health takes a turn for the worst.
John arrives at Colonel Tempest's lodgings and he and Diana listen to a raving account of Colonel Tempest as he disclosed the secret of the "bet" he concealed for so long.
Colonel Tempest dies, and both his and Archie's funerals take place at Overliegh. After the funerals and before John leaves Overliegh for good, Diana seeks an interview with John and begs him to keep his name and title until they become by right his on marrying her.