The History Book Club discussion
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I just ordered the book a few minutes ago from amazon. I can't wait to read it and am looking forward to the discussion to follow:-)

I'm looking forward to it as well. Jefferson is such an interesting study.
Joe

I got my copy of the book in this afternoon. I will start reading tonight, hopefully:-)



I am also looking forward to reading everyone's input. Each person will contribute something different to the discussion, and in some cases, our conversation will go to unexpected places. I'm curious on where this discussion will take us.
Thank-you for posting that link to Ellis' other book, Founding Brothers. I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure this discussion here will help in getting that book to the top of my to-read list.
Also, whenever possible, we all try to post the book cover, and not just the link, when referencing books in posts. Especially when the cover picture is available. Bentley has been very diligent in reminding everyone, so we all need to do our part. Thanks again.




I can't wait either... I purchased it for my Sony eReader as well.
I've had some time to prepare for this, so I am curious to read what other people's comments will be.


Jefferson was brilliant but he was duplicitous..a lot of juxtapositions.
I think Jefferson was a craftsman versus a draftsman...somebody can have all of the greatest of ideas but if they cannot put pen to paper and sometimes eloquently...all is for naught. I think Adams was a great speaker and like to speak he did...Jefferson was almost mute in the congressional congresses but write he could.
He certainly took the ideas of others and of the Congress and added his own and came up with the finished product..a work of art and eloquence really which not only documented the ideas of his cohorts but now created a spirit in the finished product which became more eloquent than even originally presented.
Jefferson made their ideas sound even better.
I think Jefferson was a craftsman versus a draftsman...somebody can have all of the greatest of ideas but if they cannot put pen to paper and sometimes eloquently...all is for naught. I think Adams was a great speaker and like to speak he did...Jefferson was almost mute in the congressional congresses but write he could.
He certainly took the ideas of others and of the Congress and added his own and came up with the finished product..a work of art and eloquence really which not only documented the ideas of his cohorts but now created a spirit in the finished product which became more eloquent than even originally presented.
Jefferson made their ideas sound even better.


Bernie;
From my view point, those that have been able to communicate well (and no one could do better than Jefferson on paper at the time) will always stand out. Washington is an interesting character in this regard in that he his probably the most idolized of all but because he didn't write much or have the gift or oratory, will rank below Jefferson in terms of how much we think of him. Bentley's comment ragarding speaking out of two sides of the issue is, in my mind, a sign to his political prowess. I don't think anyone really had any hopes (or even desire) that slavery was going to end in 1776 but it was good copy for those that actually owned them. They could go around saying that they wanted slavery to end but never had to actually back it up. Even Washington didn't free his slaves until after he died.

To get Jefferson into better context... AND A SPOILER FOR WEEK THREE...
In relation to Jefferson's writing of the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress were handling important business and considered the task, a "merely ornamental afterthought" by John Adams. I don't have the page number, but Ellis uses footnote #42 in Chapter 1 as his reference.
The next paragraph states that Jefferson's mind was elsewhere, and was using John Adam's "Thoughts on Government" for influence with creating a new constitution for Virginia. Yes, Jefferson was tasked with most of the writing and composition of what needed to be said in the Declaration, but nobody understood the gravity of what Jefferson was doing at the time. I got the impression that if they did, someone else might have been chosen for that task.
Bernie wrote: "I see, so in your opinion Bentley, do you see it as Jeffersonian magic or that all the rewards and legacy that has been heaped upon Jefferson deserving. I ask this because in the chapter you see ho..."
I hate to say this but some folks romanticize Jefferson...all of his portraits seem to show a good looking man whereas all of the portraits of Adam do not portray an attractive personage...so therein may lie the difference. Adams was incredibly important to this country...without him there may not have been one. I cannot say that about the country physically when I think of Jefferson. Jefferson made the thoughts about our country better and able to be visualized and immortalized in rhetoric. He was able to verbalize the ideal in a way that captivated the human spirit even to this day.
I hate to say this but some folks romanticize Jefferson...all of his portraits seem to show a good looking man whereas all of the portraits of Adam do not portray an attractive personage...so therein may lie the difference. Adams was incredibly important to this country...without him there may not have been one. I cannot say that about the country physically when I think of Jefferson. Jefferson made the thoughts about our country better and able to be visualized and immortalized in rhetoric. He was able to verbalize the ideal in a way that captivated the human spirit even to this day.
Jim wrote: "Bernie wrote: "I see, so in your opinion Bentley, do you see it as Jeffersonian magic or that all the rewards and legacy that has been heaped upon Jefferson deserving. I ask this because in the cha..."
Great points Jim.
Great points Jim.
Joe wrote: "I just want to throw my 2 cents in...
To get Jefferson into better context... AND A SPOILER FOR WEEK THREE...
In relation to Jefferson's writing of the Declaration of Independence, the Continental..."
Probably true Joe...give the boy something to do since he never said anything in the session; but goodness knows he can write.
To get Jefferson into better context... AND A SPOILER FOR WEEK THREE...
In relation to Jefferson's writing of the Declaration of Independence, the Continental..."
Probably true Joe...give the boy something to do since he never said anything in the session; but goodness knows he can write.

AGAIN A SPOILER
A good point, Bentley. Jefferson was known, even at a relatively young age, for his eloquence. If it wasn't for the writing of his "A Summary View of the Rights of British America" he wouldn't have been there in the first place. I just finished reading it yesterday and it looks alot like the Declaration of Independence, but only longer.
I've been wanting to research a bit more about how he came about writing it, and try to find any recent scholar comments on it, but have yet to find time.


Joe, I think you might have to look at the minutes of the sessions..I just came across somewhere that mentioned that some of them still exist. Of course, more don't.
He was very eloquent on paper for sure. The pen is mightier than the sword and obviously mightier than the tongue.
He was very eloquent on paper for sure. The pen is mightier than the sword and obviously mightier than the tongue.

So, where were you reading those minute. I'd be very interested in seeing them. Thanks!
I think there are some of those minutes/notes stored at Rutgers in New Jersey....why Rutgers is beyond me. I am trying to remember where else...I believe the Library of Congress (there were journals of the continental congress housed there)
Probably some letters would assist you like the one below from Madison to Jefferson:
I believe we talked about these somewhere on the site earlier..when I come across it I will forward those locations to you.
Probably some letters would assist you like the one below from Madison to Jefferson:
I believe we talked about these somewhere on the site earlier..when I come across it I will forward those locations to you.

To get Jefferson into better context... AND A SPOILER FOR WEEK THREE...
In relation to Jefferson's writing of the Declaration of Independence, the Continental..."
Ihave to agree with Joe that the job Jefferson was given to state the why and the justification of the revolution was not seen as the most critical job of the time. But I do think the two paragraphs that Jefferson crafted to start the document were and are the seen as the greater truths and they are so inspirational, even today, think of 1776 that Jefferson set the foundation not necessarily for the truth of the Declaration but at least for the elevation of it.
Books mentioned in this topic
A Summary View of the Rights of British America (other topics)Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation (other topics)
Founding Brothers : The Revolutionary Generation (other topics)
American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Thomas Jefferson (other topics)Joseph J. Ellis (other topics)
Joseph J. Ellis (other topics)
Joseph J. Ellis (other topics)
Joe has kindly put this together for the group.
Syllabus
American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson
Table of Contents
Prologue. Jefferson Surge: America, 1992-1993 p.3
1. Philadelphia:1775-76 p.27
2. Paris: 1784-89 p.75
3. Monticello: 1794-97 p.139
4. Washington, D.C.: 1801-1804 p.200
5. Monticello: 1816-1826 p.273
Epilogue. The Future of an Illusion p.349
Appendix. A Note on the Sally Hemings Scandals p.363
Week One - February 1st - February 7th -> Prologue. Jefferson Surge: America, 1992-1993 p.3-26
Week Two - February 8th - February 14th -> 1. Philadelphia:1775-76 p.27 - 54 - Young Jefferson - Prose Orations
Week Three - February 15th - February 21st ->1. Philadelphia:1775-76 p.54 - 74 - Texts and Contexts - American Creed, American Dream - Escape
Week Four - February 22bd - February 28th -> 2. Paris: 1784-89 p.75 - 106
Friends Ands Pirates - Diplomatic Futilities - Voice of America
Week Five - March 1st - March 7th -> 2. Paris: 1784-89 p.106 - 138
Sentimental Journeys - Madisonian Advice - Revolutions and Generations
Week Six - March 8th - March 14th -> 3. Monticello: 1794-97 p.139 - 170
Passions and Parties - Dreams and Debts
Week Seven - March 15th - March 21st -> 3. Monticello: 1794-97 p.171 - 199
Slavery - Madisonian Minuet - Lucky Losers
Week Eight - March 22nd to March 28th -> 4. Washington, D.C.: 1801-1804 p.200 - 240 - Republican City - First Inaugal - The Textual Presidency - Debts, Federalists, Indians
Week Nine - March 29th - April 4th -> 4. Washington, D.C.: 1801-1804 p.240 - 272 - Western Magic - Scandals - Gibraltar - Lists and Losses
Week Ten - April 5th - April 11th -> 5. Monticello: 1816-1826 p.273 - 300
Words and Music
Week Eleven - April 12th - April 18th -> 5. Monticello: 1816-1826 p.300 - 334 - Retrospectives - Consolidation and Diffusion - Rebel Reactionary
Week Twelve - April 19th - April 30th -> 5. Monticello: 1816-1826 p.334 - 347 & Epilogue p.349 - 362 - Educational Dreams - Tragedy - Epilogue