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Hello Everyone,

Welcome to the historical fiction discussion of Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian.

This is the reading assignment for week one - (May 3rd, 2010 to May 9th, 2010)

Author's note and Chapter One, pages 11 - 41

This is the second historical fiction group selected book.

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers if you are catching up.

This book will be kicked off on May 3rd.

This discussion is being led by assisting moderator of historical fiction - Elizabeth S. She did a terrific job bringing the previous book and Gettysburg alive for all readers and especially for the American Civil War enthusiasts in our group.

We always enjoy the participation of all group members. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

This thread opens up Monday, May 3rd for discussion. This is a non spoiler thread.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

Patrick O'Brian

Well, folks, welcome to our Master and Commander discussion! We'll be spending the next few months with this great sea yarn, the first of many in the popular series by Patrick O'Brian. For those who haven't joined us for a historical fiction discussion before, here's the general outline of how it will go each week. We'll be reading about one chapter a week (see the syllabus here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...). On Monday mornings, I'll open the week's discussion with a short overview of the week's reading. For those of you who've read the book before, that should help you remember how far along we are, and what is fair game to discuss. Please refrain from referring to events that are later in the book, or series, than the current week's reading. Anything previous in the book is, of course, fair game. If any of you would like to share information about events later in the book, or later in the series, please use the glossary thread where spoilers are welcome: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...

There are lots of things to discuss relating to the book. Personally, my main interest is in the historical aspect of the events. What is accurately or not accurately depicted? What does the book teach us about Nelson's time and the British navy? What was it like to be on a ship in the early 1800's? What additional historical facts help us understand the story? Of course, it is also interesting to discuss how the book is written, word choice, and character development.

As we get started, I'm interested to know who is reading Master and Commander for the first time, who has read it in the past, and who has also read further into the series. Please let us know in your first post. For me, I've never read Master and Commander before, although it has been recommended to me many times and was on my to-read list before it came up as the historical fiction read. I have, however, read an interesting biography of Lord Nelson, which I keep thinking about as I read Master and Commander.

David Howarth

And so, let us begin!

The first part of our reading today is the Author's Note. O'Brian tells us that the reality of life in the Royal Navy in the "eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries" (page 11) is often stranger than fiction. He says his fight scenes are based on real events, as recorded by the men who lived them. However, O'Brian confesses that he alters history as necessary for his story, moving around actual historical events "to suit my tale" (page 12).

In Chapter One we meet our main protagonists at a concert in the Governor's House of Port Mahon, Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin. Aubrey, in poor spirits, returns to his inn to find a letter appointing him captain of His Majesty's Sloop Sophie. It is his first command, and it makes his day. The next morning, Aubrey goes about the business of turning himself into a captain. He gets his epaulette, "the mark of his present rank" (page 21), again runs into Maturin, and pays a call on Captain Harte, the naval commandant of Part Mahon. Aubrey discovers that he missed his chance to talk with the previous captain of the Sophie, and Captain Harte is obviously unwilling to help with the staffing issues Aubrey will need. Aubrey then visits with Mrs. Harte, who is very happy for his success. He next visits the representative of his prize-agent to get the cash necessary for his expenses in outfitting himself and the ship. Happily he learns that the Sophie's lieutenant, Mr. Baldick, was ill and so did not leave with the previous captain as planned. Aubrey visits Baldick and gets a better picture of what quality of men are left on the ship. Aubrey finally goes to the Sophie herself and reads his commission to the crew on-board. He inspects the ship and the crew and we get a picture for what kind of captain he plans to be.

The first question that came to my mind as I started reading Chapter 1 was: Where is Port Mahon? Here's a great wikipedia article about it:

According to the article, Port Mahon is the capital city of Minorca and has the second deepest natural harbor in the world. Here's the map from wikipedia, showing the island to the east of Spain:

Elizabeth, thanks for the great introduction. I hope you'll share some of the insights you've gained into Nelson & the British Navy, as we go along.

I have read all the books in the Aubrey/Maturin series, and when I saw that Master & Commander was a choice here, I knew this was a group I had to join!

I know very little of the workings of the military generally, much less the British Navy in the Napoleonic ers, and so much that I learned in the course of reading this series surprised me. My first surprises: that the captain had to 1) hunt down pieces of his own uniform; 2) recruit members of his own crew; and 3) deal with a "prize agent". On first reading, I thought, what is that? (More to come!)

Glad to have you with us, Mary Ellen. I definitely agree that it is something of a shock to realize how much the captain was personally responsible for. Not to mention the infighting and how Harte obviously enjoyed making things more difficult for Aubrey. Wow! As you said, more to come. :)

I should also add, please let us all know if you saw the movie! I haven't seen it, but I understand there are some significant differences between the movie and the book. For example, I was told the movie takes place entirely at sea, which means this first chapter in Port Mahon isn't in the movie.

If you have seen the movie, please share such differences as we come to them. Do be extra careful of spoilers, as something early on in the movie might actually occur later in the book. Thanks!

Coincidentally, the movie ran on ... can't remember which channel ... this Saturday night. I've seen it before, and Saturday caught only the last 15 and first 15 minutes (the channel broadcast it 2x back-to-back).

Yes, Elizabeth, the movie is all at sea, the ship is the Surprise, and IIRC, the plot is pieced together from a couple of the novels. (Wish I had seen the whole thing Saturday!)

I'm very excited to participate in this discussion. I have never read the book, but it has been on my radar for years now, and when I saw that it was the next HF book to discuss, I knew I had to join in. I'm heading over to Barnes & Noble at lunchtime to pick it up.

I have seen the movie a few times and liked it quite a bit. I don't know how much the movie follows the book, but I'm going to try to keep an open mind and evaluate each on its own merits.

Incidentally, the movie has some of the best surround sound and bass effects I've heard, and is one of my go-to movies when I want to show off my home theater setup.

As I'm new to the group, and this will be my first read-along participation, I have a stupid question - do we have to cite this book in our posts if we actually mentioned the title/author? It seems like it might be a bit redundant, but I'm happy to do it if the group policy requires it.

Hello Elizabeth...I am very happy that we have started this book as well. Just as an FYI - we do have the glossary thread for spoilers.

And Mary Ellen...I caught a piece of the movie this past weekend; but alas did not catch the whole thing.

Elizabeth S wrote: "I should also add, please let us all know if you saw the movie! I haven't seen it, but I understand there are some significant differences between the movie and the book. For example, I was told ..."

I've seen the movie and read the book twice. About all the book and the movie have in common are the title and the names of the two main characters. Everything else in the movie is from later novels in the series.

Patricrk wrote: "Elizabeth S wrote: "I should also add, please let us all know if you saw the movie! I haven't seen it, but I understand there are some significant differences between the movie and the book. For ..."

Patricrk is absolutely correct. The screenplay writers sort of grazed all the books and picked out some of the more exciting scenes from the different books. A good movie in my opinion, but it doesn't match the flow of the story.

Don, glad to have you join us. I hope you can find the book over lunch and get started. Like most historical fiction, it is fairly easy to read.

As far as whether we need to cite Master and Commander each time... I know we didn't do it for other books in the past. I do know we should link every other book. But I'll leave it to Bentley, our Amazing Group Leader, to let us know for sure! Bentley, do you want us to link the book under discussion in each post?

Bentley wrote: "Hello Elizabeth...I am very happy that we have started this book as well. Just as an FYI - we do have the glossary thread for spoilers...."

Thanks for reminding everyone about using the glossary thread for spoilers. Especially for these historical fiction books, knowing future events before you are ready can take a lot of enjoyment out of a first read. For those of you who have read the book before, or who are reading ahead, if you have any question about whether or not something is a spoiler, ask in the glossary thread before posting in the non-spoiler thread!

Patricrk, glad to see you joining us here! It is nice to see several "experts" who have read the book several times previously, as well as another new-comer (Don). Great mix of people!

Erick wrote: "Patricrk is absolutely correct. The screenplay writers sort of grazed all the books and picked out some of the more exciting scenes from the different books. A good movie in my opinion, but it doesn't match the flow of the story. "

Isn't it funny that often what makes a great movie is very different from what made the book great in the first place?

No for the discussion threads on a specific single book like Master and Commander, you do not have to cite that book each and every time because every post in the thread is about that book being discussed.

However, if you cite any other book by O'Brian or any other author; you must "always" add the book cover, the author's photo (when available) and always the author's link (which is their name in text). These as everybody knows helps the goodreads software to populate our site correctly.

Your adds should look like this:


Patrick O'Brian

I am really excited about reading the book in this group. This one of the few books that I have read more than once and I have read all 20+ books a half a dozen times. The richness of the descriptions, the complexity of the characters, strong and believable plots and an excellent feel for how the people lived are all hallmarks of this series. The characters in particular are amazingly constructed. They grow and mature throughout the series from impetuous youth to grave and considering older men. They make horrible mistakes and achieve awesome successes; and they learn from them both. Patrick O'Brian expertly works the characters differences to highlight the character of each.

A truly amazing series.

What a wonderful description, Erick! A series must be really loved to continue as long as this one did. For anyone interested, I'm posting a list of all the books in the series in the glossary.

Erick...it is great that you are participating in this discussion with all of your experience with the series.

Elizabeth, I have just put on hold the movie itself; I know from what I have read that the book and movie are not that much in sync. But I will watch it tonight and report back. Elizabeth, I thought it would be fun to also add a thread about the movies of this era and/or the age of sail and also to discuss even the Russell Crowe version without spoilers. So I am adding that thread now. This thread will NOT be a non spoiler thread.

Elizabeth S wrote: "What a wonderful description, Erick! A series must be really loved to continue as long as this one did. For anyone interested, I'm posting a list of all the books in the series in the glossary."

I certainly agree Elizabeth. Unfortunately, Mr. O'Brian passed away before he completed the story. The final book still remains unfinished.

Hello everyone. I've been away for some time but I can't miss the opportunity to participate with this discussion. Elizabeth, you wrote out an excellent introduction. I like how you layed out when you will be opening each week's thread, and also your take on what your goals are. Maybe you'll let me use your post for reference during my next moderating intro.

Just for the record, I have yet to read any of Patrick O'Brian's books, so this is my chance to start. I have heard nothing but the highest accolades with regards to O'Brian's character development. I am looking forward to experiencing it.

Now that is a bummer Erick (smile).

Thank you for the synopsis of the book. I saw the film and did not realize the screenwriters had taken from several books of the series. I look forward to reading this one as I did enjoy the story with Russell Crowe.

Joe, glad to have you. You are certainly welcome to use whatever you think works. Especially since some of what I do I copied from you. :)

I like that we are getting a nice range of people from first-time O'Brian-readers (like me) to the read-everything-many-times-ers. Hopefully there will be something fun for everyone.

Great idea on the movie thread, Bentley. Here's a link, if that helps anyone: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/3...

I didn't realize how different the book is from the movie until some of the experts here let us know. By the way, everyone, the movie thread is for any movies of the era. Sometimes you get a better feel for the reality of the times by seeing it, rather than just reading it.

Hi Elizabeth, I'm reading master & Commander for the first time although I have read quite a few naval histories of this period. I am looking forward to the discussions as we go along :)

Glad to have you with us, Aussie Rick. I hope you catch any mistakes I might make as far as historical accuracy. :) It is nice to have people both who have read it before, and those who have read a lot about the period. It'll be a good mix of people.

Hi Elizabeth. I have never read any of O'Brien's books. This is not because I lacked interest, but more a mindset of intimidation on the detailed descriptions. I know very little about sailing or the terms utilized.

I did read the first chapter last night and enjoyed it. I have been viewing the glossary of terms and so forth.

I look forward to learning more and enjoying this book.

I'm only a few pages in, and I can already tell I'm going to love this book. What I am surprised by the most so far is the humor in the book - I was not expecting that. I really love the comical opening scene that introduces Aubrey; he seems a charming newly minted captain!

Here are some of my favorite comical lines so far:

"Then he remembered his own conduct that evening, particularly his withdrawing to let the small man walk by, and his inability to find any remark, any piece of repartee that would have been both crushing and well clear of boorishness."

"...and he did not respond with anything more than a mechanical jocosity and a vague dart at her bosom."

and finally, after having read the letter,

"He laughed aloud and tapped the letter, folded it, unfolded it and read it with the closest attention, having entirely forgotten the beautiful phrasing of the middle paragraph."

Good stuff!

Hi Don, those are great lines aren't they and you can almost picture yourself in some of the scenes, like the opening scene you mentioned. I'm sure a lot if us would be banging away on our chair or knee while listening to the music and getting some side-way looks from our neighbours, very funny and so real.

Hi Rick. Yes, I can certainly see myself doing the exact same thing :) I feel like Aubrey is going to be more of an everyman character that we can all relate too (I may be wrong as the book progresses), and I'm going to enjoy spending time with him.

After reading most of the Hornblower novels, I find it more than just an accident that the first scene here establishes without a doubt that our heroin is finely tuned with the music of the day, and appreciates it's beauty. Horatio Hornblower from the C.S. Forester novels of the late 1930's - 1960's, on the other hand, found music to be an irritation and classified all music as a distraction to his tight, logical, and even mathematical senses.

If anyone is not familiar with C.S. Forester's famous Hornblower British naval series, I have provided a link to the author's profile below.

C.S. Forester - Author of the Hornblower series.

Rodney, glad to have you with us. I see what you mean about the amount of technical terms. I find myself marking lots of things as I go to "look up later." Sometimes the book defines things internally, like when Aubrey explains to Maturin what "wet the swab" (page 24) means. But much is not explained. I hope we can help each other with as much technicalities as anyone is interested in. Glad you liked the first chapter.

Don, I love the lines you shared. As you said, Aubrey really comes across as an "everyman character." He seems to understand the British navy system very well, but he is in no way superhuman or a-typical/strange. It is an interesting mix for a hero.

What does everyone else think of Aubrey so far? If you've read the book before, what do you remember about your first impressions of our hero?

Thanks for mentioning the Hornblower series, Joe. On one of the other threads I was realizing that I've often mixed up the two series in my mind, both being about British naval characters in similar times of history. Now that I'm finally reading one of the books, hopefully I can keep things more clearly in mind.

by C.S. Forester

Joe also brings up an interesting point about the music. O'Brian begins his book with a concert. And I don't think this will be our last taste of music in the book. Other than to, perhaps, separate his characters from the Hornblower characters, what is O'Brian trying to do with music so far? What do we learn about the characters through music?

In his own words; Prickly, hard to exterminate. Proud, duty bound, zealous, loyal to friends, stickler for protocol and hierarchy, loves music, kind and a soft spot for loyal members of his crew. Inspires loyalty in others. Seems to be able to meet folks half way and bring them around.

Elizabeth S wrote: "Thanks for mentioning the Hornblower series, Joe. On one of the other threads I was realizing that I've often mixed up the two series in my mind, both being about British naval characters in simil..."

For right now, the music is the common interest between two men as different as Maturin and Aubrey.

Aubrey comes across as open, honest, loyal and courageous. He also seems to be willing to enjoy all the physical pleasures life has to offer without a lot of depth of character. Maturin seems much more austere and cerebral. It is difficult to read his character at this point but I get the impression he would be uncomfortable living in Aubrey's world.

I think at some level maybe Maturin is more comfortable in his own skin.

Hi everyone. This is my first reading of Master and Commander and also my first discussion with this group.

I'm enjoying the book so far and am looking foward to seeing the relationship between Aubrey and Maturin progress. I had to laugh at the passage where Aubrey is making plans to meet for dinner and Maturin responds with "Did you see that hoopoe?"

I also noticed that Maturin is referred to more that once as the man in the black coat. Is that to signify his civilian status?

Eliza, I think that you're right: the black coat is a reminder of Maturin's civilian status.

And the "hoopoe" conversation is quite funny, isn't it?

One aspect of Aubrey's character is that he measures his actions (and other people's) against an internalized code. At one point he mulls over an appropriate response to Maturin's jab to his ribs (to stop the off-tempo tapping). Aubrey reasons that such a "blow" was an offense to his honor perhaps meriting a challenge to a duel. (Fortunately he doesn't act on this, or the series would have ended quickly for Maturin!) Aubrey is someone who has a black-and-white view about many things. Fundamentally, he's a pretty simple guy.

Isn't it fun how much we learn from these two characters in that very first scene, when we really don't even know their names yet?

Several of you are finding a lot more humor in this chapter than I did the first time I read it. I think I was concentrating too hard on linking things with history and brainstorming good discussion questions to ask. But rereading it with you-all, I'm laughing a lot more. Thanks for sharing the "fun" lines. Anyone else have any favorites from Chapter 1?

Mary Ellen wrote: "Eliza, I think that you're right: the black coat is a reminder of Maturin's civilian status.

And the "hoopoe" conversation is quite funny, isn't it?

One aspect of Aubrey's character is tha..."

In addition to being a civilian, I believe the black coat is also a symbol of his profession. As to the series ending quickly for Maturin if they dueled, who knows how that could have ended? It is a good thing O'Brian didn't lead us down that road, isn't it?

This is my first time with any O'Brian. I hadn't had much interest in this area of history before, but curiousity brings me to it now. Sea stories should interest me as I grew up 20 miles west of Cape Cod, MA, but the violence from the sea I grew up with was when Perfect Storm-type bad weather, not fierce military battles, affected the then-busy and plentiful fishing industry.
I saw about the first half hour of the movie for the first time Saturday night - I like the book better right now as it gets you into the story more gradually.

Hi Virginia, This is also my first attempt at reading any of O'Brian's books and my first novel in at least 10 years but I think it will be fun, the first chapter was pretty good. To be honest with you, I hate the sea, prefer my feet on solid ground :)

Don't feel bad; in spite of growing up just up the street from one side of the sea in my area, I never learned to swim. Too afraid of the water (smile). But I love to go wading and just look out at it.

Erick: re#43 -- good point! :) I shouldn't be making assumptions!

May I add my vote as one who loves to look at the sea and read about sea adventures, but I know if I were to do any of it myself I would be horribly sick the entire time. Just sitting in the backseat of a car has been known to make me throw-up! I do love to swim, however, and ice-water is my favorite beverage, so it isn't the water itself. :)

Elizabeth S wrote: "May I add my vote as one who loves to look at the sea and read about sea adventures, but I know if I were to do any of it myself I would be horribly sick the entire time. Just sitting in the backs..."

me too!

I'm reading "Master and Commander" for the first time, and I've seen the movie twice. Loved the movie, but I think I'll love the book even more. (Maybe the series - who knows?) I had heard a long time ago that the movie was based on the entirety of the series, not just the first book, and the comments I've read above bear that out.

I loved the opening scene with the music! Are any of you Star Trek fans? I thought of Captain Picard and Data, and a scene where they were loudly singing a Gilbert & Sullivan song. Music is universal and for a brief moment it connected me simultaneously to the fictional past and the fictional future!

The hoopoe scene was wonderful and I loved that the captain later referred to the bird as an "epop".

Like others, I was amazed at how the ship was handed over from one captain to another - definitely without planning and the military precision we're accustomed to today. For Aubrey, it was "every captain for himself". But it didn't seem to surprise or dismay him that much.

Looking forward to the next chapter, as well as the discussion.