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Yeah, I've been surprised by how much humor is in this book!

I think I mentioned it in our "Thomas Hardy" author discussion thread, but it is well worth re-posting here. In 1889, Hardy made the following journal entry, "Love lives on propinquity, but dies of contact."

This is something to keep in mind as one watches relationships in this novel (as well as Hardy's other novels) unfold.

And I completely agree with all of you that Hardy has a terrific wry sense of humor.

So Chris to Hardy loves lives in the physical or psychological closeness but once that is attained it (love) dies away. Something like first love is thrilling and exciting and then it becomes old and tired.

Don't know if I agree, because I think it (love) changes, it doesn't die.

Marialyce wrote: "So Chris to Hardy loves lives in the physical or psychological closeness but once that is attained it (love) dies away. Something like first love is thrilling and exciting and then it becomes old a..."

Oh, Marialyce, I don't think the question is whether you and I agree with Hardy; but that this is what Hardy believed, and that it was this kind of emotional and psychological reaction or response that he imbued his characters with.

For Hardy, I think that much of this feeling is directly related to his own relationships with the women in his life, most especially his first wife, Emma. It is a quite interesting notion to ponder though, isn't it?

Yes, true, Chris. His book, his story, his beliefs are what one is presented with.

I guess we, the reader, bring our own ideas to every session that we sit with a book, and we come away with the ideas of the novelist whether we agree with them or not. I am not the author therefore I must read with the idea of the fact that someone else's idea is here not mine. I will also have to research Hardy's life so that I understand from where he is coming from.

I wonder if it would make sense to read a good bio of Hardy before reading the rest of his novels. Has anyone read Claire Tomalin's? Thomas Hardy

On marriage supplanting weaknesses: Opposites attract, and complement each other by replacing each other's weaknesses. The thrill never goes out of the marriage as long as the couple can continue to share their weaknesses.

Laura wrote: "I wonder if it would make sense to read a good bio of Hardy before reading the rest of his novels. Has anyone read Claire Tomalin's? Thomas Hardy"

Laura, I just received it from Amazon, and it is happily sitting on the shelf waiting for me. As soon as I am done with Rosemarie Morgan's Women and Sexuality in the Novels of Thomas Hardy I am on to the Tomalin biography.

Wow Chris, are you really into Hardy, or just preparing for this discussion? You're quite a fount of knowledge on the subject!

Hey let us know what you think!!

Laura wrote: "I wonder if it would make sense to read a good bio of Hardy before reading the rest of his novels. Has anyone read Claire Tomalin's? Thomas Hardy"

I'm reading it right now, in parallel with FFTMC, and enjoying it. Tomlin writes well, and she has a fascinating subject.

Laura wrote: "Hey let us know what you think!!"

Laura, I surely will. On both counts!

I am reading Rosemarie Morgan's superb book, Women and Sexuality in the Novels of Thomas Hardy, and I am in the chapter about 'Bathsheba Everdene' and Far From the Madding Crowd. I wanted to share an interesting perspective with all of you. Please pardon the length, but I truly think all of you will enjoy her take on this.

Remember when Bathsheba is sitting in her wagon, with all of her household goods, cats, and her canaries in the cage? Okay, here's what Morgan has to say--

"This is the Bathsheba of Hardy's opening passages, the 'fair product of nature,' who, taking up her looking glass, perceives for for herself that warm creature aglow with the soft heat of her sex. Her feminine sensuousness prompts first a parting of the lips then a roseate tumescent glow. A dawning is clearly taking place and not only in the morning skies; but while Hardy's appreciative gaze rests upon Bathsheba's open-eyed wonder and soft arousal, a second observer, the clandestine Oak, sees things a little differently. He promptly assumes vanity in place of sensuous self-delight.

This disjunction between form and feeling is emphasised by the contrast between the external, material world of objects, the physical expression of things, and the internal, essential world of feeling and sensation. Bathsheba had first been observed by both Oak and Hardy settled 'on the summit of the load' of her domestic paraphernalia; a motionless, monochromatic figure set amid a configuration of household possessions and comatose cats. The scene is empty of manifest feeling and movement, or, rather, free maneuverability: 'The only sound in the stillness was the hopping of the canary up and down the perches of its prison.' But appearances are deceptive: behind the visible world a latent energy stirs. Bathsheba turns, and she is 'moved', so Hardy is moved to evoke the fullness of her vitality. Gazing at her reflected image taking life from her animate being. Bathsheba smiles. Clearly she is what she feels and seems what she is, and in wonder at the realisation,

'She blushed at herself and seeing her reflection blush, blushed the more.'

The impact of Bathsheba's auto-eroticism, clearly lost on Oak but not on Hardy, is now hastily, and it seems to me, protectively screened by the mellow, interpersonal comment that the 'picture' is a 'delicate one' -- a phrase that hints at intimacy but subtly defuses it by suggestion, through 'picture' of pure aesthetic appreciation...But the mirror does not lie and neither will Hardy. Bathsheba is indeed a 'fair product of nature' and artifice, vanity, have no place here:

'There was no necessity whatever for her looking in the glass. She did not adjust her hat, or pat her hair, or pull a dimple into shape, or do one thing to signify that any such intention had been her motive in taking up the glass. She simply observed herself as a fair product of Nature in the feminine kind...'

And relished it."

Is this cool, or what?

Very nice, Chris. Thx for transcribing. I was actually struck by the word 'prison' in that passage on my original reading. Now it seems to have more meaning, as Bathsheba is breaking free...from the restrictions and expectations of her time, and of Gabriel as well. Maybe even of her own expectations? Very enlightening!

Everyman wrote: "Laura wrote: "I wonder if it would make sense to read a good bio of Hardy before reading the rest of his novels. Has anyone read Claire Tomalin's? Thomas Hardy"

I'm reading it right ..."

Thx Everyman. I definitely need to read this!

Christopher wrote: "...little visual tour of Hardy country...,"


Great pics - thanks Christopher! I am just back from that part of the world and especially took a bus trip to Dorchester to stop off at Puddletown, which is still a delightful little village, where I thought of y'all whilst partaking of a cream tea:). The extensive, uninterrupted views of farmland, as far as the eye can see, over the hills towards the sea are much as Hardy would have seen them, complete with flocks of sheep such as Gabriel and Bathsheba might have owned. And thatched cottages, such as those shown at Piddletrenthide, abound in Dorset, although they are now the homes of the middle-class who can afford their upkeep, not farm labourers. (I am probably one of the few people in England who goes not like thatch, except to look at - too many bugs, mice and rats in it for me!:O)

Christopher wrote: "Is this cool, or what? "

Cool indeed. Though I do wonder how much of that Hardy intended to put into the scene, and how much she is adding into it herself. But then, I wonder that with a lot of literary criticism.

I do too! I'm glad I'm not the only one.

In one sense I wish all of you could read the entire chapter about Bathsheba and FFTMC, because it is not quite fair to Dr. Morgan's analysis to just pull this one episode out of the context of the rest of her thesis proffered in the entire chapter. I thought though that her assessment of the mirror episode in the cart was an interesting one, and worth sharing.

There are other tid-bits from her very interesting book that I plan to share as we move through the novel. Cheers! Chris

Chris, you're doing a great job with this book.

Laura wrote: "I wonder if it would make sense to read a good bio of Hardy before reading the rest of his novels. Has anyone read Claire Tomalin's? Thomas Hardy"

Yes, several of us have read Claire Tomalin's biog and it is excellently researched as well as being well written.

Thx Madge!

Everyman wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Is this cool, or what? "

Cool indeed. Though I do wonder how much of that Hardy intended to put into the scene, and how much she is adding into it herself. But then, I wonder ..."

I think we have to remember that the sexual imagery which Hardy was able to use was very much circumscribed by his Victorian readership and much was censored by his editors. For every word of Hardy about sexual matters of any kind I think we have to read half a dozen unwritten ones and it is this unspoken part of Hardy which Morgan is trying to address. With our freer thinking about sex in general, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to read more into Hardy than is on the pages before us.

Christopher wrote: "I am reading Rosemarie Morgan's superb book, Women and Sexuality in the Novels of Thomas Hardy, and I am in the chapter about 'Bathsheba Everdene' and Far From the Madding Crowd. I wanted to share..."

Thanks a lot for this Chris. I think the BBC producer must have read Rosemarie Morgan!

MadgeUK wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I am reading Rosemarie Morgan's superb book, Women and Sexuality in the Novels of Thomas Hardy, and I am in the chapter about 'Bathsheba Everdene' and Far From the Madding Crowd..."

I think so too, Madge! In fact, from what I understand about Dr. Morgan's reputation and expertise, anyone who is any kind of student of Thomas Hardy reads her scholarly work. She also happens to be the current president of the "Thomas Hardy Association" too (here ). Cheers! Chris

I think, first of all that scene where Bethsheba is riding in what might be construed as a provocative manner, might not be so if only viewed as a reader. Putting Gabriel into it of course changes the climate of the scene and puts a different connotation on it. Would Bethsheba have ridden that way if she knew she was being observed? What one does in private is a lot removed from what one does in view of others. So, is Hardy trying to bring that thought into this scene? Is he trying to say that the straight laced Victorians were a lot more sexually involved then they would have us believe?

For Bathsheba to ride astride, with or without an observer, would be very provocative to the Victorians, even more so without a saddle.

I think Hardy was trying to shock Victorians out of their hypocrisy, especially the hypocrisy of his women readers. Whilst they were complaining about some of the more explicit scenes in his novels, they were living in a society where their menfolk regularly indulged in pornography, prostitution, particularly child prostition and other sexual improprieties:-

I think that while Hardy dealt with sexuality in his novels, I don't know that I agree with the portions of R. Morgan's interpretations that you are bringing out here.

I think to look at these scenes of Bathseba's as too heavily driven by her sexual state or something would be making the interpretation of this novel too narrow. For example, her gazing into the mirror at the beginning means far more about the inner Bathseba than her looking at herself in regard of her own sexual nature or feelings. I think it all means more than that, and maybe opposed to Dr. Morgan, it may be more centered on Gabriel's conclusion of "vanity." It may have not been really vanity, but maybe more muddled reasons like a need to reassure herself of her beauty or, down deep, her self value.

I do like that Hardy dealt strongly with sex, morality, etc. in his novels and apparently wouldn't back down and sell himself short. He was done with novels if society continues to lay down the censures that it did. Marialyce addressed this also in her comment -- wondering about the private person in Vic society. The more that I read of the 19th century, I can't help think they were much like us. In our century, we live under censure too. Obviously someone is keeping objectionable material, activities, and services in business, but we would be censured if we admit to it.

Back to Bathsheba, the scenes of the mirror and her lying on the horse's back seem to me to say more about her daring than her sensuality. These aren't the only way she distinguishes herself from what would be considered "ladylike." She also attempted to take charge on her inherited farm without help even of a steward -- also not very ladylike - especially in the country setting of Wessex.

Sarah wrote: '...but we would be censured if we admit to it...'

I think the difference is that although we would be censored for indulging in various sexual depravities, just as the Victorians would, we do at least know about them and they are written about, reported on TV and radio etc whereas for the Victorians, especially women, such things were kept very secret. Take pornography, which we can see on the top shelf of a newsagent or on the internet, whereas the Victorian gentleman had false leather book covers made to hide such literature and put them deceitfully in his library. Nor were such things ever talked about in 'polite' society, whereas we can freely discuss them here and elsewhere.

If Hardy meant only to portray Bathsheba's daring I think he would not have used written images which were laden with sexual connotations, as he so often does, such as making a reference to 'the dressing hour in a bedroom' with regard to the mirror. She could also have ridden the horse at breakneck speed to show daring. I feel there is no doubt that Hardy is challenging his society's sexual mores when he portrays Bathsheba's sensuality and Gabriel's heightened 'lovelorn' (frustrated?) behaviour.

For my part, I'd like to go back to the Victorian times. I wish things were more...I don't know...understated, and left to the imagination, as they were then.

When I first read that passage, I was thinking she must be a tomboy. But I think there is a double meaning, a more subtle one, that goes along with what Ms. Morgan seems to imply. And Gabriel is Hardy's way of showing (and poking more fun) at Vic. society, because he sort of embodies the more buttoned-up, conservative stance.

MadgeUK wrote: "Sarah wrote: '...but we would be censured if we admit to it...'

I think the difference is that although we would be censored for indulging in various sexual depravities, just as the Victorians wou..."

I basically disagree Madge. I believe the population as a whole, men and women, would have been more knowing about the private indulgences, overall during the Victorian era or any era. No, it would not have been part of polite parlor conversation, but it isn't now either for that matter. For me, kind of the difference between talking in the sitting room amongst all the family, and the talk that went on among the women some time later shelling peas in a corner of the back porch. Two very different versions I gathered from grandparents, great aunts and older relatives. And these relatives were raised slightly past the Vic era, but were raised in a very conservative and conventional era and part of the country, no less. I think that people by nature learn more than we publicly acknowledge about private goings on.

As far as Hardy's scenes, I believe we can only imagine for ourselves what might have shown daring versus the individualism of Bathsheba.

In preparation of moving onto Part 2 of our discussion of FFTMC, I went back and quickly reviewed the first part. I have to say that I was, like Everyman's earlier observation, very much struck by that little scene with Gabriel and Fanny Robin when he gives her a few coins, and feels her pulse--

Gabriel's fingers alighted on the young woman's wrist. It was beating with a throb of tragic intensity. He had frequently felt the same quick, hard beat in the femoral artery of his lambs when overdriven. It suggested a consumption too great of a vitality which, to judge from her figure and stature, was already too little...He felt himself in the penumbra of a very deep sadness when touching that slight and fragile creature."

To me, this indicates not only that Gabriel is a man very much in touch with Nature, but that things do not bode well at all for poor Fanny Robin.

I also thought that the gathering, or 'chorus,' at the malthouse was important too. It gave us some interesting backstory on Bathsheba's parent's and an explanation for her perspectives on marriage. Her father having to consider his wife, in essence, an illicit lover for him to be fully satisfied in the relationship. In my opinion, a very Shelleyan view of pursuing the ideal of Love (Shelley espoused the notion of 'Free Love' rather more for sexual gratification, than the more nobler attributes, I'd say). Anyway, it was interesting to re-read this and think about it.

Well, for me it is on to Part 2. I do hope that all of you are enjoying Hardy's wonderful novel. I certainly am! Cheers! Chris

Victorian literature does not bear you out unfortunately Sarah and I feel we must take account of increasing literacy, the advent of a free press, radio, then TV. My own grandmothers, both Victorians, did not know about periods or how babies were conceived and had never seen a man's penis until their wedding night, either in the flesh or in a book, even though they had brothers. All their married lives they slept in voluminous nighties and did not reveal themselves to my grandfathers - and they advised me on my wedding day to do the same! (The poet Ruskin was shocked into impotency on his wedding night by the sight of his wife's bodily hair, because he had only seen statues of women.)

However, I think there are class and occupational differences in all this in that country folk see more of life 'in the raw' and working people lived in very crowded houses. Middle and upper-class women saw less and revealed less and their husbands expected them to be very circumspect about all sexual matters, despite their own indulgences. The 'Angel in the House' was expected to be docile and submissive, who 'turned the home into a heaven, pure in thought and deed'.

MadgeUK wrote: "Victorian literature does not bear you out unfortunately Sarah and I feel we must take account of increasing literacy, the advent of a free press, radio, then TV. My own grandmothers, both Victori..."

Madge, we are operating under different sources of information, especially in respect to our family experiences. Yes, I agree that the rural experience would have been different from that of geogr. areas or social classes holding more refined views (or more restricted ones). But much of the world was the rural world in that day.

And overall, I understand that Victorian literature was widely under the same censure I was referring to above, so it would not have reflected certain realities of the time.

Yes very different, and you are in America and I am in England:).

I felt like there is alot going on in in The Malthouse chapter that I probably missed. Besides the futher information we recieve reguarding Bathsheba's family as well as Farmer Oaks. Is there other Hardy themes or philosophy I missed. This chapter seemed to really confuse me. Help me out someone?

Anna, what does Hardy mean by "Immanent Will" that sunk the Titanic? A capracious god who plays with us mortals ?
Or is it Karma, where the captain's temerity in taking his ship on a more northern route to save time put the ship in waters full of icebergs.
In either case, many 'innocent people' suffered, or did Fate put them all on that ship for a purpose?
I do not know answer.
"Fatalism" is a broad term, can someone narrow down the possibilities of Hardy's concept of "Fate" ?

Rebecca wrote: "Is there other Hardy themes or philosophy I missed. "

Can't tell which ones you might have missed until we know which ones you found!

Karlstadt wrote: "Anna, what does Hardy mean by "Immanent Will" that sunk the Titanic? A capracious god who plays with us mortals ?
Or is it Karma, where the captain's temerity in taking his ship on a more norther..."

I'm no Hardy expert, and his views changed somewhat during his lifetime, but here's what I understand, in a very brief summary. He lost the Christian beliefs he was brought up with while still a fairly young man, but never developed a consistent alternative belief. His view seems to me to have some elements of the classical Greek belief in Fates who set out the basic themes of a man's life at birth. He echoes the Greek view in the final lines of Tess, where he writes "The President of the Immortals, in Aeschylean phrase, had ended his sort with Tess." (This also echoes the cri de coeur of Gloucester in King Lear where he cries out
"As flies to wanton boys are we to the Gods,
They kill us for their sport."

This all suggests an intelligent will who is actively toying with humans, but at other times Hardy seems to be thinking of a more impersonal fate, more like what an earthquake or hurricane does to the humans caught up in it, just an unthinking force that rips at the fabric of normal life and takes lives indiscriminately without any intentionality.

Everyman wrote: "Rebecca wrote: "Is there other Hardy themes or philosophy I missed. "

Can't tell which ones you might have missed until we know which ones you found!"

All right Everyman thanks for making me work harder at this. :) I will need to go back and dig a little deeper. :)

I wanted to help you also, but not sure what your understanding of the chapter is. I agree that there's probably more than meets the eye. Is this your first Hardy also, Rebecca?

Laura wrote: "I wanted to help you also, but not sure what your understanding of the chapter is. I agree that there's probably more than meets the eye. Is this your first Hardy also, Rebecca?"


Acutally Laura, I read Mayor of Casterbridge years ago so its been a while. I tried to re-read last night but was to tired to pay attention. I might consider going on and then going back at a later time.

Thank you all for your wonderful insights. I am a bit behind in the reading schedule but am enjoying reading your comments immensely - thank you for adding to my experience. I too found the Malthouse chapter a little confusing too. .So you are not alone Laura!! Thank you for explaining that it is a way of introducing the characters.. Loving it so far - Hardy's characters are so well drawn - am already in love with Bathsheba and Gabriel...:)

I wanted to come back for a moment to the name Bathsheba. In the bible story of David and Bathsheba, the feelings of the woman are never described and don't seem to be very significant to the story. David sees her, as Gabriel sees his B., and because he is so excited by her, sins to possess her and murders her husband to cover up the first sin of adultery. I've never considered it a love story, but much more a lust story. I don't know how this will play out for our characters but Bathsheba is not a propitious name.

MadgeUK wrote: "To answer Rebecca, I think the Malthouse chapter is one of those (like Chapter 6 at the Fair) which 'sets the scene' and introduces us to other characters in the book. It also gives a flavour of r..."

Thank you SO much, this has been most helpful!

MadgeUK wrote: "This extract from Wikipedia's entry on Thomas Hardy perhaps throws some light on his beliefs and what he thought about religion and fate. (They seem very like those of George Eliot and are perhaps..."

Thank you, Everyman and MargeUK.
The First Cause sounds a bit like the god of the Deists, whose god created the world, natural law, and human reason, then walked away and only got involved at special times in history. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin fall into this general view. This is why they put so many check and balances in the Constitution, because they saw out of control societies can become without accountability.
Religion has been summarised as: God created Man, then Man returned the favor.

I finally got into this book and am amazed to find the wonderful level of discussion here! I have read two other Hardy novels so far, Two on a Tower and Tess of the D'Urbervilles and enjoyed them (in fact, I adore Tower) but wondered how depressing this book would be. I was pleasantly surprised by the comedy here, and I am loving all the memorable characters. I am also enchanted by the little vignettes Hardy crafts--Gabriel's first glance of Bathsheba, Bathsheba on the horse, etc.--and can't wait to finish the book to see how it all turns out.

Hi Rachel. Glad to see you joining the discussion! This is a memorable and very visual novel.