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For discussion of chapters 9-13; potential spoilers included!

How do we not discuss the journal, and the conflict about whether or not Mina is to read her husband's private diary!?! If Jonathan thinks it is too terrible for himself to read, why would he inflict it on his fiance? Is this a bit troublesome given the general Victorian view about protecting women from anything remotely sinful or too "real" and not part of their standard private sphere?

Wow! Paula, I didn't even think about that as I read the book, but you are so right. Perhaps Stoker felt that women of his time were more than faintish wimps and could handle the details of a loved one's anxieties. Perhaps, too, it was Stoker's view on what love should be, a type of sharing of one's life in its most disturbing as well as it most charming aspects. I, myself, am glad he made Mina real, it made her seem more in love with Jonathan and not just a woman who was in love with being in love. I think I read somewhere that his mom was a feminist so that might have had an effect on his outlook towards women.

I am interested to see what others might think of this quote. It stuck me as true. Despair has its own calms

That's interesting to learn that Stoker's mum was a femenist, Marialyce. I do actually think that it is evident in the book: as I said in the last thread, I like the fact that even the "weaker" female (and there is usually at least one in victorian fiction) is not a simpering idiot.

I have to laugh to myself everytime Lucy receives a blood transfusion from whichever man is closest to her at that time; they obviously hadn't discovered blood groups in those days - what a lucky lady that 4 different men so far have been able to give her a transfusion without her dropping down dead ;)

Boof wrote: "I have to laugh to myself everytime Lucy receives a blood transfusion from whichever man is closest to her at that time; they obviously hadn't discovered blood groups in those days - what a lucky l..."
I wondered about the blood transfusions as well. I guess I will have to look up what year the whole blood type/groups thing was discovered. Also I wondered about the amount of blood that was taken from the men because when I donate blood they only take a pint and it can only be done every 56 days.

Boof wrote: "I have to laugh to myself everytime Lucy receives a blood transfusion from whichever man is closest to her at that time; they obviously hadn't discovered blood groups in those days - what a lucky l..."

LOL I had the exact same thought when I read of that. What are the odds that all the men in her life, apparently just happened to be a compatible blood type of her?

I thought that was quite interesting the blood transfusions, and it made me think, I wonder would happened back then when they actually gave real blood transfusions, I guess it would just be a 50/50 chance if it in fact worked or not.

Also I have to say, I am totally loving the character of Van Helsing. He is one of my favorite characters in the book.

Boof wrote: "I have to laugh to myself everytime Lucy receives a blood transfusion from whichever man is closest to her at that time; they obviously hadn't discovered blood groups in those days - what a lucky l..."

I wondered about that too!

Boof wrote: "I have to laugh to myself everytime Lucy receives a blood transfusion from whichever man is closest to her at that time; they obviously hadn't discovered blood groups in those days - what a lucky l..."

Ha! That is pretty good. She must be AB+ : )

Van Helsing is a great character, yes, Silver.

He obviously recognised the vampire bite marks on Lucy's neck which is why he brought all the garlic in (I had to laugh when Lucy's mother thought she'd done her a favour by removing all the "smelly flowers" and opening the window for fresh air - poor Van Helsing!).

I'm keen to know what he knows about Vampires and what experience he has of them.

POSSIBLE SPOILER - PLEASE DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED CHAPTER 12

Ooooh, how excited I was when I got the end of this chapter last night. They all said their goodbyes but......dun dun duuuuuunnnnnnn......this isn't the last we will see of Lucy! I loved the spooky voice when she said to Arthur "kiss me!". Fabulous!!! �

She does become the femme fatale doesn't she? She will be back for sure in all her spooky splendor.
The only complaint I have about the writing is that of the speech of Van Helsing. It took on a phony ring to it and tended to bother me a bit. I realize that it is Stoker's attempt to make the reader know that English is not Van Helsing's native tongue. Probably, it is just me!

I do love the way the other characters converse with each other. They are so typically polite, so cultured, so Victorian. Their feelings are so expressed through the words they speak. When I consider this novel, I realize that there is not many "action" scenes but in the words, are portrayed all the haunting elegance that is needed.

I love the way that Stoker has made some of his characters speak actually. I can hear that Van Helsing is Dutch when he speaks and I also loved the zoo keeper who had the most wonderful cockney accent, dropping aitches where he shouldn't and adding them where he shouldn't also; I could actually hear him saying the words to the reporter, trying to sound posh:

"Old Bersicker kep' a-lookin' arter 'im till 'e was out of sight, and then went and lay down in a corner, and wouldn't come hout the 'ole hevening."

I love it �

I have to admit, I actually kind of like the way Van Helsing speaks, for me it gives a little something extra to the feelings of his eccentricness. I have to say considering he is a doctor and a scientist, I cannot help but wonder how he first began to get into all this paranormal stuff.

I think the relationship between Van Helsing, Seward, Arthur, and Quincy is really quite amusing in the way they interact and talk to each other.

I have to say I was quite baffled by the term "Bloofer Lady" which appears towards the end of Ch. 13 in a news article from the gazette.

I looked it up to see if I could find anything about the meaning of the word, and it seems the general consensus is that it is supposed to be the word "Beautiful" which I had kind of thought was what it had meant, but I was not certain.

Though some people claim that it is a cockney pronunciation of beautiful, while others attest that it is meant to be baby-talk for beautiful.

Silver, my copy has notes in the back that say that "bloofer lady" was a term used by children for a beautiful lady. Apparantly Dickens uses it too, when a child calls Lizzie a bloofer lady in Our Mutual Friend. It must be some Victorian cockney term, I think.

Boof wrote: "Silver, my copy has notes in the back that say that "bloofer lady" was a term used by children for a beautiful lady. Apparantly Dickens uses it too, when a child calls Lizzie a bloofer lady in Our ..."

Oh yes, I think I vaguely remember that from Our Mutual Friend. It must be some cockney slang word.

I read that Lucy was considered a wanton lady, she is open to sexual adventure because she has invited Dracula into her bedroom. As Van Helsing states, no vampire can come in unless invited.

So here is Lucy, the very epitome of a Victorian lady, who stumbles a bit and pays a very high price for her behavior. She now becomes a sexual predator able to bring many young men into the lair of Dracula.

Does Mina seem to be on the same path? Is this the way in which Victorian society is forced to look at female sexuality?

Marialyce wrote: "I read that Lucy was considered a wanton lady, she is open to sexual adventure because she has invited Dracula into her bedroom. As Van Helsing states, no vampire can come in unless invited.

So h..."

That is an interesting thought and we do have the example of her flirtatious nature, and perhaps something of her character in the fact that she was proposed to by 3 different men (and if I recall all in the same day.)

There was also that instance with the sleep walking scene in which Mina finds her in the middle of the night sitting upon the bench in her night gown, and there was a great concern about the scandal that would cause if anyone found out, and after words they did not even want to tell anyone about the incident.

They were worried about what people would think and say about Lucy. Mina is highly concerned about what people will say about Lucy if anyone were to find out, this perhaps does suggest something about Lucy's nature.

I wonder if there is also some significance in their parental status of Lucy and Mina, they are both without father's and Mina lacks a mother as well, while Lucy has a sickly mother, so they can be seen as perhaps not being proper supervised, or properly raised. They are given too much freedom without any guidance.

I will have to see if I can find where I read that, Silver. I didn't think about the girls being without a mother's guidance. That would certainly make sense.

Silver wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I read that Lucy was considered a wanton lady, she is open to sexual adventure because she has invited Dracula into her bedroom. As Van Helsing states, no vampire can come in unle..."

Silver this is a great insight. I definatley think you are on to something here. with Mina and Lucy that I am wondering about in Lucy's nature as well.

Marialyce wrote: "I read that Lucy was considered a wanton lady, she is open to sexual adventure because she has invited Dracula into her bedroom. As Van Helsing states, no vampire can come in unless invited.

So h..."

Marialyce, I agree. I think that Lucy is very expressive and descriptive as well as comfortable with that adventure early on. Do you think she had early encounters early on as a child that led to her increased desire for that adventure?

Perhaps, Rebeca and as Silver has mentioned, Lucy had had three proposals of marriage all in one day it seems. I think she enjoyed being the center of attention.

“Why can’t they let a girl marry three men, or as many as want her, and save all this trouble?�

I think Lucy is more "out there" with her physical beauty. She does seem to enjoy and look forward to compliments more than Mina who seems uncomfortable with them.

Marialyce wrote: "Perhaps, Rebeca and as Silver has mentioned, Lucy had had three proposals of marriage all in one day it seems. I think she enjoyed being the center of attention.

“Why can’t they let a girl marry t..."

I have to say I did find the relationship the developed between the three different men who proposed to her to be a bit odd, as well as their relationship to Lucy during the time in which she was sick. It seemed almost polygamous in a way.

I have to say that I loved that moment when Van Helsing went into a fit of hysterics after the funeral, because I myself am one who has a high apperception for irony and find that even tragedies have their humor to them.

****Spoilers****

I agree Silver, all those men opening their veins for her and all reckoning themselves to be in love with her but not resenting each other - seemed unlikely somehow!

To me there was something quite farcical about all the mishaps i.e. the Doctor leaving her alone in her bedroom, the garlic flowers being inadvertantly removed from the room, the theft of the crucifix from her corpse etc. Is this intended to be somehow humorous or are my senstivities different to those of the Victorial era?

Perhaps it was done to lighten up the novel which is so very dark in its intent, Em. Having those men bleeding for Lucy is a kind of irrational, surreal moment I think. (especially since none of them seem to be jealous of one another!) If Lucy had "lived" she certainly would have taken advantage of their blood again!

I agree that I think there is a good deal of humor which is sprinkled throughout the book, as pointed out when Van Helsing was laughing after the funeral, in which he saw the irony of Arthur's comment about being wed to her because he opened his veins for her, but so did all of her potential suitors open their veins to her, and Helsing himself, an old man.

There is also something of a humorous nature I think in that feeling of comradery and almost brotherly love between all the men in Lucy's life, and how they all become instant friends to each other and support each other through their suffering.

Not to mention the mother removing all of the garlic from the room and thinking she had done this great and wonderful deed to help out Lucy. I do think that does add an element of comic relief in the background of the story.

I'm glad you agree the humour is intentional, I didn't like to think I was missing the point! It does give some relief from the outset of the book, nothing very funny about being trapped in a castle with Dracula and three hungry female vampires.

Do you think that the setting is like another character in this story?

Was it funny that her mother killed her? Maybe for us, but i think that if I were a Victorian lady I would be very sorry.

Kinga wrote: "Was it funny that her mother killed her? Maybe for us, but i think that if I were a Victorian lady I would be very sorry."

Well it is not funny so much that she killed her, but I think there was some humor in the way in which she came up to Van Helsing to tell him about how pleased she was to have removed all those awful smelling flowers. There is an ironic humor to that because of course the audience knows that the flowers were necessary and the bother well meaning but ignorant thought she was helping Lucy by removing them.

It was her demeanor and her attitude, and the irony behind it that was humorous.

It is ironic, all right, but I found it pitiful rather than humorous. Nevertheless, I understand your point of view :)

Maybe this is also to show that men should trust women and tell them their secrets because otherwise this backfires - everybody wants to spare Lucy's mom (ok, she's also ill, but they probably would have spared any women in their misled gentlemanyly way) and this in the end kills Lucy. POSSIBLE SPOILER Later on the book they don't want Mina to be a part of their fight against Dracula, either, and this proves to be highly to everybody's disadvantage POSSIBLE SPOILER OVER- maybe Stoker thought that women were strong enough to stand certain truths they were being "protected" from - somebody said that his mother was a feminist - this would kind of fit, wouldn't it?

Why is it too late for Dr. Van Helsing to cut if Lucy's head and take out her heart? I know the maid went in and took the necklace from her lips. Did she taste the maids blood or was Dracula able to finish the vampire process somehow?

Haven't got my book to hand but my recollection was that Van Helsing had placed a crucifix across her lips to deter her from being kissed maybe by Dracula (he was keen to prevent Arthur from kissing her when she was dying wasn't he?) Don't know if I missed something though, anyone else have an insight?

Yes he did put the crucifix on her lips. Could it be to keep Dracula away or to keep Lucy from doing something bad. I was thinking Dr. Van Helsing was afraid of Arthur being hurt by Lucy. Going in for a kiss makes it easier to get to the neck. I know every story seems to have a different way people become vampires but this one could be that the vampire needs to drain the living to almost death so many times until they "die" and then need to take a humans blood or be kissed by the vampire.

Boof wrote: "Van Helsing is a great character, yes, Silver.

He obviously recognised the vampire bite marks on Lucy's neck which is why he brought all the garlic in (I had to laugh when Lucy's mother thought..."


I laughed too Boof and then I kind of realized Oh, How sad, she was trying to save her mother.

I think VAn Helsing meant to protect everyone by not revealing what he knew about vampires. Some of the problems might have been avoided if he'd been honest. On the other hand, would any of them have believed him?
One thing tht concerned me was that, in giving Lucy all those blood transfusions without checking the donor's blood types...wouldn't that kill her, or at least make her condition worse? I guess they didn't know about blood types in the 19th century.

Gaijinmama wrote: "I think VAn Helsing meant to protect everyone by not revealing what he knew about vampires. Some of the problems might have been avoided if he'd been honest. On the other hand, would any of them h..."

I presume that they were not aware of blood types at that period of time, and so I suppose that when they did preform blood tranfusisons upon people it was a crap shoot on whether or not it would work.

Rebecca wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I read that Lucy was considered a wanton lady, she is open to sexual adventure because she has invited Dracula into her bedroom. As Van Helsing states, no vampire can come in unle..."

Spoiler Alert if you are not half way thru the book.
The Count echoes the Serpent in the Garden when he says that he uses women to get to men. But, it is the men that do the most damage when they act like they are in charge.
"wanton" women are an excuse that men have been using since the Garden. Adam claimed that if God had not made Eve, he would still be a righteous man. As Luther pointed out, Adam could have prevented the Fall by chastising Eve for her foolishness, and called upon God for advice. Instead, Adam took the easy way out and blamed the woman.