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For discussion of chapters 14-18 in "Dracula." Beware of spoilers!

For this section, instead of posting a question, the below is more of a general statement upon which I sincerely hope people will comment.

The idea of Lucy being this sought after young woman, and then becoming one of the 'nosferatu' (un-dead) seems to change the view of the men who were previously so interested in Lucy. It seems that her more blatant sexuality in these sections turns off the men, or even repels them. This could be a sign of the times, when Victorian men wanted their wives, or prospective wives, to be a bit more... pure. However, I think those could still hold true today, so am therefore interested in everyone's thoughts on this topic (i.e., Lucy's changing sexuality and the reaction of her suitors).

If I fell in love with a pure person, I would certainly be disgusted by his/her sudden voluptousness. More so, if I were Victorian.
I think that you are right, today men are still more likely to fall in love with an innocent girl. There is something unpleasant about a girl who seduces men indiscriminately. I think it's natural that people prefer to date someone who is likely to be faithful. I find playboys repulsive. Maybe I am old-fashioned.

Interesting question, I partly agree to Kinga - same counts for me with playboys - but on the other side I think that secretly the idea of the "whorish", voluptous side of Lucy attracts these men, and they feel repulsed mostly by their own fascination- does this make any sense?

They wanted to marry the innocent Lucy, but the sensual, blood-craving Lucy appeals to a different "dark" side of them. If Freud had been writing his works at the same time, he'd have been really happy with the "Id" in most of the characters, I think - there's so much unconscious, suppressed sexuality around - the deadly kiss is such a symbol in itself, isn't it? And all this is so definitely opposed to the Victorian ideas of shame and decency and the picture of women.

Am I making too much out of this?

I'm really enjoying this read much more than I ever expected - how exciting and surprising this must have been to Bram Stoker's contemporaries who hadn't grown up with the movies and Dracula being already a part of our common knowledge.

Does anyone know if vampires and the story of Romanian Count Vlad were well-known back then or was Bram Stoker really the first to introduce the topic on a grand scale?

Julia wrote: "Interesting question, I partly agree to Kinga - same counts for me with playboys - but on the other side I think that secretly the idea of the "whorish", voluptous side of Lucy attracts these men, ..."

Julia, I agree with you. Earlier in the book, Jonathan encounters the 3 brides of Dracula and these are his thoughts:
"There was something about them that made me uneasy, some longing and at the same time some deadly fear. I felt in my heart a wicked, burning desire that they would kiss me with those red lips.
I lay quiet, looking out from under my eyelashes in an agony of delightful anticipation. There was a deliberate voluptuousness which was both thrilling and repulsive,..."

Jonathan is both aroused and repulsed by the "voluptuous" vampires. But like you said though, he is more repulsed by his own attraction to them than by the vampires themselves.

great quote, Grace - that's exactly what I meant. The French call orgasm "le petit mort", the little death, and I wonder if there's some connection - Jonathan longs to be bitten, but on the other hand this will mean perdition and hellfire - sexuality was such a taboo back then, and these three vampires are pure temptation with their both sweet and nasty breath and their red lips. especially female sexuality.....

Julia wrote: "Interesting question, I partly agree to Kinga - same counts for me with playboys - but on the other side I think that secretly the idea of the "whorish", voluptous side of Lucy attracts these men, ..."

I am not sure how well known the story of Vlad itself would have been back than, but prior to Stoker there in fact other vampire stories.

Prior to his deciding to write Dracula, Stoker had read Camilla by Sheridan Le Fanu, a short story about vampires which was published in 1872.

The scene with the meeting of Lucy in the cemetery is one of my favorite moments within this book. And vampirism is strongly tied to ideas of sexuality,and in many ways the fear that the vampire inspires does spring up from the fears relating to a woman's purity, as well as perhaps a fear of the darker desires of men, in a world that was so confused about its own sexuality and tried so hard to repress ones natural inclinations.

From the modern perspective, looking back into the past I did find it almost humorous the way in which a woman's sexuality was personified as something so hideous, and grotesque in this image of Lucy gone mad, possessed by the vampire, and trying to seduce her three suitors again, but in a terrifying fashion.

You have this group of men who throughout the book are always congratulating each other upon their manliness but they are all horrified by this woman because of her open display of sexuality.

Silver wrote: "You have this group of many who throughout the book are always congratulationg each other upon their manliness but they are all horrified by this woman because of her open display of sexuality."

Haha, I love this :) You are soo right!

You have this group of men who throughout the book are always congratulating each other upon their manliness but they are all horrified by this woman because of her open display of sexuality.


Silver, this said. I think men like a challenge and I think that reaveling less clothing and sexually makes them always curious always wondering and wanting more about the next time they will see it and have it. ;)

Sorry to get off topic but I didnt understand when all the suitors came back with Helsing when he was proving to Seward about Lucy that she was still alive? "All in this together" I suppose???

I think it's because he knew he would need their help later on.

Kinga wrote: "Silver wrote: "You have this group of many who throughout the book are always congratulationg each other upon their manliness but they are all horrified by this woman because of her open display of..."

What do you think of Van Helsing's words to his men:
"To us forever are the gates of heaven shut...a blot on the face of God's sunshine; an arrow in the side of Him who died for man." Not exactly the words of someone who thinks that he is doing God's will !

Julia wrote: "great quote, Grace - that's exactly what I meant. The French call orgasm "le petit mort", the little death, and I wonder if there's some connection - Jonathan longs to be bitten, but on the other h..."

This reminds me of the theater in 'Interview with a Vampire'. In the final scene, the hero welcomes death as freedom from pain and misery.

Paula wrote: "For discussion of chapters 14-18 in "Dracula." Beware of spoilers!

For this section, instead of posting a question, the below is more of a general statement upon which I sincerely hope people wi..."

I understand that it was acceptable for unmarried men to satisfy their sexual urges with women of the night. However, women were not supposed to have such strong desires. Lucy as a vampire probably resembled the 'painted ladies' that Victorian men visited, but never married. Renior painted many scenes of married men openly drinking with ladies of the night. But such things were never spoken of in polite circles.