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Actually re Jorge--The Key To The Name of the Rose says that he's named after Jorge Luis Borges. Borges is blind like Jorge of Burgos. Eco also didn't agree with Borges approach to life, and presumably doesn't agree with the character Jorge of Burgos either.

Wow-that's a fascinating piece of info. True Borges was a librarian (or bookseller?) & of course blind. But I love his work & never would have associated hoim with sour old Jorge. I have to do some research on Borges' view of life & people!
Thanks for the info.

Shomeret wrote: "Actually re Jorge--The Key To The Name of the Rose says that he's named after Jorge Luis Borges. Borges is blind like Jorge of Burgos. Eco also didn't agree with Borges approach to life, and presum..."

Thanks Shomeret. Wow, this is why I like group reads, I learn more that way. Fascinating.

Bernadette wrote: "Shomeret wrote: "Actually re Jorge--The Key To The Name of the Rose says that he's named after Jorge Luis Borges. Borges is blind like Jorge of Burgos. Eco also didn't agree with Borges approach to..."

I agree!! very interesting bit of info!!
3/20- we embark on Day Two!

tonight I start DAY TWO!

I'm right behind you Rick!

Shomeret wrote: "Actually re Jorge--The Key To The Name of the Rose says that he's named after Jorge Luis Borges. Borges is blind like Jorge of Burgos. Eco also didn't agree with Borges approach to life, and presum..."

Oh... I didn't notice this either! Fascinating, though I have to admit that I do not know very much about Borges... though he is on my to-read list of surrealist authors :) or magic realism... I don't know exactly what it's called in english... :"> :)

Some of Borges' titles are not translated-for examples "Ficciones" is the title of the English translation.

Now-where can I go for information about Borges? I love his writing but know little about him besides his being blind, living a long time, and working with books.

There is a book at my library called Borges, A life by Edwin Williamson a 2004 copyright. Might check it out when I go in to work tomorrow.

Diane wrote: "There is a book at my library called Borges, A life by Edwin Williamson a 2004 copyright. Might check it out when I go in to work tomorrow."

Oh I am so envious, I always wish I could work in a library or a bookstore...

Me too. I've never been able to get hired even part-time as B&N. :(
But I've got to find out more about Borges now. Even tho' I can tell I'm going to be sadly disillusioned.

Ellie wrote: "Me too. I've never been able to get hired even part-time as B&N. :(
But I've got to find out more about Borges now. Even tho' I can tell I'm going to be sadly disillusioned."

I spent most of my college years working in bookstores, problem was, I spent most of my paycheck there...:-)

It seems that this monastery is pretty extensive, especially the library. Is this normal for this time period or a product of Eco's mind?

I think the moasteries that were committed to scholarly pursuits were very large libraries with many many manuscripts. These would be the go to destinations for monks studying or writing regardless of the order they belonged to.

I have visited a benedictine monastery in Germany and Eco's description is pretty close, although the monastery in the book is much more monumental than that I've visited. This actually is brought to attention, since he describe all the details, like the perfect simetry and the symbolism of the architecture.
But in the description of their day to day lives and the scriptorium and the place where they ate, they were pretty near to the truth.

Excuse me if my english is not the best... I am actually romanian, so I hope you are understanding :)

I think your English is terrific, Diana. Thanks for telling us about the monastery being quite authentic in the book.

Diana wrote: "Excuse me if my english is not the best... I am actually romanian, so I hope you are understanding :)"

Your English is better than some native English speakers I know...seriously, it's great, don't worry Diane. I'm sure your English is far better than our Romanian!

Now we have another body upended in a vat of blood. It's a little bit like the game of Clue, who killed who with what and in what room.

Thank you for the info, Diana. Your English is fantastic by the way!

I once went on a 3 day retreat at a monastery - Just to relax - I found it facinating- and the Monks- very friendly and contemporary- most were huge fans of Barry Manilow- as his music seemed to be playing quite alot. It was a very relaxing retreat and was nice to "escape" the real world for a few days!

all the info you want on Borges and more!!

I found this current chapter facinating inthat it started asa non-fictional account of the Monks' early morning prayer routine and quickly switched to a wh-done-it- I can't help but thinking the mode of death- head in a vat of pig's blood is important clue

Diana wrote: "Excuse me if my english is not the best... I am actually romanian, so I hope you are understanding :)"


I think your English is amazing-for a native-born speaker, let alone a second language! And I really value your contributions, they've made this book talk especially interesting to me!

Listening to Barry Manilow? Right there I"d ran out screaming for the inquisitors!

Ellie wrote: "Diana wrote: "Excuse me if my english is not the best... I am actually romanian, so I hope you are understanding :)"


I think your English is amazing-for a native-born speaker, let alone a second ..."

Thank you so much! I was so happy to find this group! I actually finished this book just days before finding you guys :) I also found so much info on this forum thatI found quite useful and I kept back from talking, since I don't always remember what exactly happened in which day... so I don't, since I don't want to spoil your reading :)

Well, I understand your concern, but I hope you don't hold back too much: you have a lot of good stuff to share so please do.
I also read the book before so I understand the caution.

Rick wrote: "all the info you want on Borges and more!!

"

Thank you, thank you. I've just come back from the site to say thanks-& now I'm back off.
Did I say thank you?

Ellie wrote: "Rick wrote: "all the info you want on Borges and more!!

"

Thank you, thank you. I've just come back from the site to say thanks-& now I'm back off.
D..."

quite welcome!!

Curt wrote: "Listening to Barry Manilow? Right there I"d ran out screaming for the inquisitors!"

I prayed for a vow of silence from the sound system!

Rick wrote: "Curt wrote: "Listening to Barry Manilow? Right there I"d ran out screaming for the inquisitors!"

I prayed for a vow of silence from the sound system!"

Wow, was listening to that a part of penance?

Bernadette wrote: "Rick wrote: "Curt wrote: "Listening to Barry Manilow? Right there I"d ran out screaming for the inquisitors!"

I prayed for a vow of silence from the sound system!"

Wow, was listening to that ..."

I just felt it odd as it was a retreat and a monastery yet they played Manilow all the time and most of the Monks were middle aged- and had had previous careers- I know many were Hairdressers and interior decorators because we had a session in which they intro-ed themselves and told of their background. One was a Rabbi who converted- facinating
all were confirmed bachelors long before they took the vows as a fellow vistor asked about their families.

I am sorry to say that I need to return The Key To The Name of the Rose. It's a library book, and I was only allowed to renew it once. So far there have been no requests for translations. If you really need a translation, there are resources online.

Shomeret wrote: "I am sorry to say that I need to return The Key To The Name of the Rose. It's a library book, and I was only allowed to renew it once. So far there have been no requests for translations. If you..."

I have been able to pretty much skip over the Latinphrases and get the ghist of the conversations- so nice of you to have offered the translation guide!!

Rick wrote: "Bernadette wrote: "Rick wrote: "Curt wrote: "Listening to Barry Manilow? Right there I"d ran out screaming for the inquisitors!"

I prayed for a vow of silence from the sound system!"

Wow, was..."

I don't know if in Day Two you already get to where the previous lives of monks are being discussed, but it is a really important part of the book, what each of them did previously, what they believed in and how they got to the monastery.
Or maybe that is just me, since I always tend to analyze the psychology of the character and their reasons for certain behaviour much more than other details of the book... :)

I agree, tho, Rick. especially in a murder mystery which I sometimes forget this is! Character means a lot when looking at who might be "the one."

Ellie wrote: "I agree, tho, Rick. especially in a murder mystery which I sometimes forget this is! Character means a lot when looking at who might be "the one.""

True- and there is a general feeling that Monks are beyond human feelings and desires- yet we all know that they are still human, with all our flaws- striving for the spiritual life

Well, I'm a Catholic & I have few illusions about this. I have met some very holy monks-and priests-but most of them have been very human, to say the least!

I think everyone was very superstitious in that time period maybe the monks especially. We can see from this book that they really believed in the concept of heaven and hell, and burning for their sins. They went all out in purging their sins, flogging and really injuring their bodies just in the hope that they would be forgiven. So many of the early siants have been dismissed by the Catholic Church (including my old school St. Philomena)because it was decided that these people were mentally ill not called to god.

Of course, there is also the school of thought that the mentally ill are called by God to witness.

And, on the other hand of course, that they are possessed by the devil.

I suppose it has to do with the form the illness takes & the current social atmosphere.

I think that's exactly right, Ellie. When these saints were first proclaimed mental illness was thought of differently or not recognized at all. We know that hearing voices, or seeing the dead could either be divine (are they hearing the voice of God) or are the posessed of the devil. Think it depended on who you were, if you were nobody you were called a herectic and burned.

Or if you were in the wrong political camp!

It so amazes me the things people have done in the name of faith. I remember in grammar school (a Catholic one btw, no surprise), being super scared by the saints. Seeing all that blood, crucifixions, being eating by wild animals, stigmata, flagellants, and other assorted horrors scared me to death. I could never believe that I could be one of those people and felt that that made me less of a Catholic because I probably would not have given up my life like these saints had.

In the book Brother William says that the people feared the saints more than Jesus and selling relics from the saints bodies was big business in the Middle Ages. This is the way some people supported themselves, selling supposed body parts from supposed saints because they were thought to have divine power. Like I said before such a superstitious time period that the church exp[loited for their own gain. Like you said Marialyce all in the name of faith and the Cathollic church was and still is an expert of guilt and fear.

Eco seems to be playing off the hypocricy in that he shows the difference in "who is allowed to do what and go where" and how the servants are treated- against the motto- "do unto others..." and Treat thy Brother.."

Rick wrote: "Eco seems to be playing off the hypocricy in that he shows the difference in "who is allowed to do what and go where" and how the servants are treated- against the motto- "do unto others..." and Tr..."

I think William seems to point out the hypocrisy of the time very well with his little asides to Adso, he seems to be very ahead of his time.

I think we need to be careful in talking about contemporary religion, as opposed to what is being discussed in the book so as not to offend anyone. I have seen that blow up on other sites.

You are right, Bernadette.

MY point of view concerning William is that the monks are actually divided in two specific groups: the strictly religious types that believe only in the holy scriptures and the more open-minded monks, that had a previous life and that accept change and scientific improvement. And I think that this doesn't translate only in religion, but also in the political concerns of the time, as in the cold war and such.
And about the discussion with the religion, I think that everyone was thoughtful with their opinions and that nobody should be hurt by their comments.
And that since this is a book, with religion playing a big part, everybody should be able to express their opinions as freely, but as politically correct as they can be expressed :)

Diana wrote: "MY point of view concerning William is that the monks are actually divided in two specific groups: the strictly religious types that believe only in the holy scriptures and the more open-minded mon..."

Bernadette wrote: "Rick wrote: "Eco seems to be playing off the hypocricy in that he shows the difference in "who is allowed to do what and go where" and how the servants are treated- against the motto- "do unto othe..."

VERY good points!!! we should concentrate on the particular characters and their actions as opposed to any specific religion or beliefs- as we do not want to paint with too thick a brush

many of the richer monasteries were scriptoriums. They existed only to make handwritten copies of books. That was their purpose. The Franciscans were not rich. They disdained earthly riches and were supposed to embrace poverty. Read about St. Francis of Assissi for more info. Without scriptoriums, no books. This was before the printing press. That's why Guttenberg was so earth shaking. The idolatry of saints was one of the points of the reformation. So was the sale of relics. A lot of what is mentioned in this book is what fueled Martin Luther. And please notice the attitudes towards women.