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Alright everyone here is the start of our dicussion for The Count of Monte Cristo becasue it is such a long book, and since we are giving it more than a month, I will not post all the chapters at once, but add the later chapter sections as the discussion progressess.

So time to get things, started and enjoy!

One of the things of which I find interesting, is that right off the bat we are introduced to all this animosity that seems to be directed towards Dantes and yet there is not really provided in particular reason why these individuals have such hate for this man that they seek to plot against him.

Fernand makes since being a love rival of Dantes, but with the others, it seems a bit vague as to why they have set thier sights upon Dantes to such a strong degree. Danglars who seems to be the one who is really driving forward the hate towards Dantes and simply playing upon the weaknesses of the others to use them in his plot, one could suppose is jealous becasue he wants to promotion for himself, though nothing directly indicates this and Caderousse seems to have no real reason to dislike Dantes, other than what seems to just be a general sort of envy.

It seems strange for people to have such strong hate for someone when they in fact do not even have very strong reasons in which to base thier hate upon.

I think is real life though. Some people can feel very threatened when they perceive you to be more successful than they. Unfortunately there are many times when that emotion turns to hate or dislike of the individual they perceive to be "better" than they.

I think Danglars' hatred stemmed from jealousy, not only of Dantes' upcoming promotion, but also of his respect from the crew and his position in life. Dantes was a young man who had everything going for him, and was about to receive everything he wanted. Danglars wanted at least one of those things for himself and so decided to destroy Dantes' entire life, not just strip him of becoming captain. I think there are people who can hate someone just because he or she is good and are everything that they themselves are not.

Fernand just wanted Dantes out of the picture so he could move in to have Mercedes all to himself.

Caderousse is a little harder. If I recall correctly, Danglars and Fernard got him very drunk, so that was probably most of his excuse. However, there can be something said for jealousy of a young life going well for him, too, and also perhaps mob mentality.

Sarah wrote: "Caderousse is a little harder. If I recall correctly, Danglars and Fernard got him very drunk, so that was probably most of his excuse. However, there can be something said for jealousy of a young life going well for him, too, and also perhaps mob mentality. .."

I think that Caderousse is someone who just likes to complain and perhaps be pitied of have sympathy for others, or feel more important by looking down on others particularly those who are successful. At first he bad mouthed Dantes to Dangler, probably out of a general sense of envy towards the young successful man, and because in Dangler he found someone who would listen to him and be sympathetic to him, but I think for him in the end it was all talk.

He himself did not actually wish anything bad to happen to Dantes and when he realized how serious Dangler actually was, he began to back out. After he got drunk he began to declare how much he in fact actually liked Dantes, and than Dangler used his drunkenness to try and mask from him his true intentions to Dantes.

But after Caderousse discovered that Dangler had truly plotted against Dantes, he had wanted to tell the truth, and protested against the vile act, but than Dangler threatened him to keep him quiet.

I'm not reading the Count, but I ran across something today that might be of interest to those who are. If it's been mentioned already, sorry -- I haven't read all the posts.

The Count was originally published in daily installments in a Parisian daily newspaper. There were 140 installments, which if they were published 7 days a week would be 20 weeks, or nearly 5 months. Can you imagine having to wait until tomorrow to find out every time what happens next -- no chance to read ahead? It would certainly make discussions around the drawing rooms more interesting, though, since everybody would be at the same point in their reading.

The beginning of this book is so tense... I admit, I had to cheat. There are times when I can't stand the suspense. I looked up the major blurb for the book on Wiki. There are times I just can't bear to read a book if it is too awful. I didn't read the whole thing, but I had to see if there were any silver linings before deciding to keep reading. Ok, enough of the confessions.

The first thing, though, I wish I had read some Dantes before. I know a lot of it depends on the translation, but he's got such a great style. Just the right amount of description and romanticism, without the reader hitting their forehead, going "get on with it!"

I was also a little thrown by the hatred for this very young man - hardly started on his road to life, and he has all these enemies? I also think Fernand is really playing with fire. I hope he gets a beatdown for what he did. Mercedes will never forgive him.

I don't think it will pay to try to delve too much into the motivations of characters in this book, as it seems to me that it's an old-fashioned adventure yarn that isn't going to pay a great deal of attention to characterisation. There are good guys and bad guys and that's it. In the way that we don't need to wonder why Lex Luther doesn't like Superman, I think we shouldn't be looking too closely at why Danglars doesn't like Dantes. My impression is that the characters are 'types' that we often find in plot-driven adventure stories. In Westerns, they wear white hats and black hats to let us know which side they're on!

I'm fascinated to be reading this. It's one of those few books whose titles I always seem to have known but which I have never read. I've read no Dumas at all, in fact, though the stories are familiar enough through films, adaptations and the like.
What has struck me is that it moves so fast. It seems to me to be driven by story rather than character - and I'm left wondering as a number of others seem to be about why people do as they do. I'm also wondering how all those pages are going to be filled!
But I'm hooked, all right. The manipulative way that Danglars gets Dantes thrown into prison; and the weak vanity of Villefort, striving to appear as his future wife wants him and then apparently without qualm condemning Dantes to imprisonment is splendidly villainous.

A nasty bunch of guys, to be sure! I think it's interesting the way Danglars writes the letter while leaving it for Fernand to send it, and even scrnches it up tosses it in the corner so that he can deny (to himself?) that he's the one who actually fingered Dantes. He probably would have done well as a CIA agent.

Bob wrote: "A nasty bunch of guys, to be sure! I think it's interesting the way Danglars writes the letter while leaving it for Fernand to send it, and even scrnches it up tosses it in the corner so that he c..."

I think it may be partially so he can try and act innocent to himself, though he does not strike me as a man to truly have a guilty conscience, and partially to protect himself should his fellow conspirators have moments of regret.

If Caderousse were to try and talk and tell someone what happened than Danglers could honestly deny sending the note, and Caderousse would have to admit that he did throw the note out and did not send it.

And Fernand cannot come clean against Danglers because it was by his hand that the note was sent so he would have to implicate himself in the plot.

Danglers was able to acheive his goal without having to personally get his hands dirty thus securing his saftey in the event that something does go amiss.

One of the things which I find interesting is the way in which fate seems to be playing a hand against Dantes. as if there are other forces at work which have helped advance Danglers plans even better than he himself could have imagined, for there are some rather striking coincidences that convened against Dantes of which Danglers himself had no control or could not have predicted.

If the name upon the letter had been any other than Noirtier than odds are Dantes would have been allowed to walk away scot free right than and there, or if in fact the Crown Prosecutor had been present and was the one to question Dantes instead of Villifort, than he may have been released, or at the very least given a more reasonable jail sentence for his unknowingly and in ignorance and innocence under the orders of a superior been about to deliver a treasonous message, opposed to being stashed away indefinitely into a dungeon.

The phrase "too good to be true" comes to mind, as if Dantes good fortunes were in themselves the source of bad luck and not just because of the envy in which it did inspire in others against him, but as if by some order of the world itself, it is unnatural that a man, particaurly one so young should indeed posses every happiness that a man could ask for.

I love how in the first chapter of the book Dumas sets the groundwork for Dante's character. He is a very good man. The romantic in me loves how he defends his relationship with Mercedes, as many sailors in his day are portrayed as were with low morals. I also noticed how when he was suspected by losing a day and a half of time after assuming the captain's position, he was in reality obeying orders. He knows he first has to go and visit his father, then immediately to Mercedes. I think Dumas wants us to admire this man very much, so that when he is betrayed it is all the more heartbreaking. I feel like as readers we are being set up for heartbreak. lol

Silver wrote: "One of the things of which I find interesting, is that right off the bat we are introduced to all this animosity that seems to be directed towards Dantes and yet there is not really provided in par..."

Danglars and Villefort are perfect examples of how men can be vile while pursuing their gain, with a disproportion between what they feel as an obstacle and the means they use to sweep it away, even if it's a human being.
Caderousse is cowardice. He's the man who let the bad guys work.

And all of them feel ok with their conscience as long as the result of their doings is hidden from their eyes (i.e. Dantes once in prison will be easily erased from their memory).

Readers here may be interested in the Background information posted for the Count in the Readers Review bookclub:-

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...

When Mercedes is first introduced while talking to Fernand, she mentions how she has lived on nothing but public charity since her mother died. Was she referring to the general public, or did Dantes giver her money? I don't understand why he wouldn't give her money to live on if she needed it, since he was shown to be more than willing to give his father money. If he didn't support her financially, would that be because it would have been looked down on as improper at the time?

Rachel wrote: "When Mercedes is first introduced while talking to Fernand, she mentions how she has lived on nothing but public charity since her mother died. Was she referring to the general public, or did Dante..."

I think she made some reference to Frenands family giving her some money, I am not sure about Dantes, and how it would be viewed for a man who was courting a woman to support her prior to their actual marriage or even official engagement

This section looks like a preamble to something.....a few characters introduced and situations with possible ramifications suggested; then some quite abruptly discarded as time accelerates.
No character has yet divided my sympathies; I'm with Kathy so far: they are either black hats or white hats.

This is certainly a novel of good versus evil. We have met the good Dantes as well as the evil Danglers and Villeforte. The prime motivator seems to be jealousy and greed and perhaps a bit of fear thrown in on the side. The most interesting bit for me so far is the chapters entitled Father and Son. In the one we learn of the love devotion and care of a son, Dantes for his father, while in the other we find what a vile relationship Villeforte has with his father. He,( Villeforte) is initially scared for his own neck should his father's sympathies for Napoleon be made public. He even goes as far as warning his father and yet again not in the spirit of protection, but one where he sets his father up for he
Villeforte is a heartless conniver. His concerns on only for self not for anything else. I
loved the contrast created by these two chapters.

Dumas, I think is exploring all the various avenues hatred can take.

I agree with those that say this novel is much more plot/story driven than it is character driven. The characters we are thus far introduced to do appear to be fairly black and white, and not very complex, but they have simple basic and self-serving motives. But I think that perhaps Dumas is trying to make a point within this story about the basic human nature, and how self-motivated it can truly be, as well as how truly fickle and petty people can be that it takes so little for them to be moved to hate, and how little they care or consider the consequences of their own actions.

Villifort is a man who will betray any of his convictions in the name of his own ambition and self-advancement. In spite of his being such a "dedicated" Royalist, as soon as he sees the tide is about to turn he simply sits back to place himself in a position to join whichever side wins. Even after the Bonpartisits take the throne again, he leaves his options in the case the Louis will gain back control.

He also betrays his own personal conventions for the sake of his ambition. In some ways he is even worse than Danglers, while Danglers seems to be completely without conscious or guilt for what he has done, but convinces himself that he has not in fact truly done anything wrong, Villefort knows that Dantes is innocent, and he knows that what he has done is wrong, and yet out of his own ambition he continues to do it.

It is also had to believe just how naive Dantes himself can be even after what happened to him and his being imprisoned in spite of Villeforte's promises that he will be allowed to go free. He seems to take everyone at face value, and even though he is aware that Danglers does not like him, and he knows that Fernand is in love with Mercedes' he still cannot imagine that he could have any enemies, that anyone would in fact act against him.

He seems incapable of suspicion.

I can see how this story would have had newspaper readers hooked. Not only would there have been no chance to read ahead, but there also might not have been the expectation that you would look back, either, what with newspapers being throw away items. The important thing is the momentum. The story keeps driving forwards. I find it very easy to read it in small chunks and I can always pick up from where I left off quite easily.

Just as an aside, I see that Dumas's father was a Haitian with African ancestry who was dismissed from the French army when they decided that they couldn't have black officers. Am I the only one who is thinking that if Dumas were an American we would think of him as a black writer? And so regard him as someone whose achievement was outstanding in view of the prejudice/slavery of the time?

I thought this was interesting:
In the introduction in my book, the writer says that the reason the Count of Monte Cristo is super long and has some highly unnecessary detail is because Dumas was paid for how many lines he wrote. Quite an incentive, huh? lol Now I am interested to see what the detail is, and to see how unnecessary it is.

Being paid by the word - pretty common at the time. Dickens certainly was.

Interesting that we witness the various stages that antes goes through both in his desire to die/live and avenge his being put in the dungeon for no crime. He is no longer the naive young nineteen year old he once was.

The theme of looking for God's help was played out and found lacking, but now that he has a companion, life is not so very dismal. The sound of a compassionate human being has restored Dantes.

Marialyce wrote: "Interesting that we witness the various stages that antes goes through both in his desire to die/live and avenge his being put in the dungeon for no crime. He is no longer the naive young nineteen ..."

Yes it was interesting to watch Dantes struggles within the prison and his swings between the darkest despair to the renewals of hope. And it seems he is starting to become wiser through this experience, and perhaps through his growing older, even if he himself is not aware of his age. He is starting to realize that indeed there may have been others working deliberately against him.

Now it looks like Abbe Faria might end up playing an important role. I cannot help but to wonder if indeed he will prove to be not quite so crazy as everyone seems to think.

I believe he will be the "father" who Dantes so misses.

Susanna wrote: "Being paid by the word - pretty common at the time. Dickens certainly was."

Was Dickens really? This was the first time I have heard of an author being paid by the word, but that would make sense since Dicken's novels are HUGE. I would think that the publishers would have realized what type of an effect that would have on the novel!

Rachel wrote: "Susanna wrote: "Being paid by the word - pretty common at the time. Dickens certainly was."

Was Dickens really? This was the first time I have heard of an author being paid by the word, but that ..."

Sort of, but not really.

I believe that later on he owned the periodicals he serialized in (in England), so I guess he could have paid himself whatever he wanted.

I have often thought that Stephen King gets paid by the word as well. (sorry had to throw that in!)

I have a personal interest in art and art history and so I love looking up artists and paintings mentioned in books, here is a link to the image "The Fall of Babylon" by John Martin

Shay-

That's SO interesting! I thought the last part about his pay from the Pickwick Papers allowing him to get married was so funny. She must've been like, "please, just write a few more, so that we can have a bigger wedding?" lol
Seriously though, his books are huge, I wonder if the pay did influence him to write long novels, or if that is really how he wanted them to be. Either way, The Count of Monte Cristo is a huge book, and I have already noticed how Dumas says certain words over and over again. For instance, when Danglar, Fernand, and Caderousse were first talking about Dantes, they REPEATEDLY used the word drunk to describe Caderousse, and it's like, ok Dumas, we get it. He is DRUNK! And he always describes how many times a person sits down in a specific chair.

HELP - I did not realise when ordering it on amazon how long this novel is!!!! Considering I already have a waiting list, I think I will keep it for the easter holidays and hope to finish it inbetween lots of revising for exams! It does sound interesting though, and I am looking forward to reading it - I mean it generally has quite a good rating, so hopefully I'll enjoy it too!!!

Rachel, interesting point about Dumas using repeated words for characters or situations. Two suggestions. First, he was as a number of people have already suggested working at speed and pushing the story on. So he fell back on a formula for describing a character, as a shorthand for himself as a writer. Second, it's (again as a number have ruefully noted) a huge book, driven at the moment by events rather than characters. Maybe it's going to be the way the reader copes with the panorama that he/she is given, and Dumas' way of making characters that we may lose sight of for large parts of the book (I'm guessing, now) memorable and recognisable.
As I push on with the book, I do feel myself wondering what on earth Dumas is going to do with all these characters and situations. And genuinely wanting to know.

Stephen wrote: "Rachel, interesting point about Dumas using repeated words for characters or situations. Two suggestions. First, he was as a number of people have already suggested working at speed and pushing the..."



Yeah! I am wondering how he keeps up writing about all these different characters. It's hard enough to keep up reading about them. If I remember correctly, in the movie they combined some of the character's traits and situations into 1 person, so that it was easier to follow. Out of curiosity, how many people in this discussion have seen the movie?

But yes, it is very event driven, and I will say that I am enjoying that since I am currently trying to read Atonement, and it is VERY slow. The Count of Monte Cristo is a nice change of pace, and I really don't mind the repetitive words, since it is balanced out by the fast pace.

Carina wrote: "HELP - I did not realise when ordering it on amazon how long this novel is!!!! Considering I already have a waiting list, I think I will keep it for the easter holidays and hope to finish it inbetw..."

I just read this one in about a week so when you do get to it don't be put off by the length, it was a much faster read than I was expecting and pretty exciting. I was pretty neglectful of my other books while I was reading it though, but it should be great for a holiday.

I find it a fast read for a fat book.

Do we know, with any certainty, how much and specifically what was written by Dumas and what was written by August Maquet? "The two started writing historical romances together, with Maquet outlining the plot and characters in draft form and Dumas adding colorful dialogue and details. At the insistence of the publisher, Maquet's name was left off the title page, and in return he received generous fees. " (from Wiki) That kind of leaves a lot in the air. What, if any, works by Dumas were done completely by Dumas so that someone could compare this book to it?

AmandaLil wrote: "Carina wrote: "HELP - I did not realise when ordering it on amazon how long this novel is!!!! Considering I already have a waiting list, I think I will keep it for the easter holidays and hope to f..."

It is a very fast read. I have been at it for nine days now, and I am almost finished. I am pushing myself to get to the end, but dreading it at the same time. Finishing a good book always seems like saying good-bye to a friend.

I, unfortunately, have to confess that I am not finding this book as engaging as some of you are. I seem to be plugging away and it does seem extremely wordy and at times redundant. I will continue though because this book is one of my goal books for the year.

Rachel wrote: "When Mercedes is first introduced while talking to Fernand, she mentions how she has lived on nothing but public charity since her mother died. Was she referring to the general public, or did Dante..."

Rachel, I think they mentioned that Mercedes received fish from Fernand and his family to survive, and that other people gave her things or materials. It seems like she was a weaver or some sort of artisan that made household wares and sold them for a price. Maybe I was reading to much into it, but I don't think Dantes actually every gave her money.

Marialyce wrote: "I, unfortunately, have to confess that I am not finding this book as engaging as some of you are. I seem to be plugging away and it does seem extremely wordy and at times redundant. I will continue..."

Keep plugging away, it gets good! Another option would be to listen to it on your ipod/mp3 player. I listen to it being read while I commute, and that helps me at least know how to pronounce all of the French names and places!

This is the second time I've read this, and I really do enjoy it! One of my favs.

Amy wrote: "Marialyce wrote: "I, unfortunately, have to confess that I am not finding this book as engaging as some of you are. I seem to be plugging away and it does seem extremely wordy and at times redundan..."

Thanks, Amy!

Marialyce, are you reading one of the Victorian translations? I noticed that a lot of the Victorian translation of books leave things out or just "feel" more old fashioned. I'm using the translation by Robin Buss. Maybe that would help?

I did find that these first chapters moved a bit slowly, but for me the book really does pick up more as you keep reading.

I am reading the "free" translation available on amazon. i just finished Chapter 25 so I am moving along a bit better, now. Thank you both.

I've read both a Victorian translation and the Robin Buss - Buss is most definitely better. I know they use it for the Penguin.

I'm behind on this one, but am finding it a pretty easy fast read. It seems more play like to me with those paragraphs at the beginning of each chapter setting the scene.

Silver spoke previously about how naive Dantes is that leads to his imprisonment. But was he more naive than one would expect of one in his position? One of the facets that makes the first part of the book compelling to me is how Dantes seems to have done only the right things and that he did not have great reasons to be suspicious. Instead he happened to be in the confluence of the ambitions of several of those around him. Granted, it was somewhat unbelievable how everyone around him was so quick to sacrifice him to their own lusts, but assuming that to be true, it seems to me all the more crushing that Dantes should have been able to trust those closest to him, but instead he ends up thrown into the chateau d'if with no hope of return.

Roger wrote: "Silver spoke previously about how naive Dantes is that leads to his imprisonment. But was he more naive than one would expect of one in his position? One of the facets that makes the first part o..."

It seems a bit naive to me though that Dantes if fully aware of the fact that Danglars does not like him (even if he does not know to just what extent) and he knows they did have have some dispute with each other.

And he also is aware of the fact that Fernand is in love with Mercede's so it is not as if he was completely deceived in thinking that these people were his best friends, and that he was completely blind to what their opinions of him might be. It is a bit naive I think to truly beleive that the man who is in love with the woman you are about to marry would truly become a genuine and sincere friend to you and would not hold any grudge or ill will towards you.

But when he is being being questioned by Villifort and he is asked if he has any enemies, and he is shown the letter which was written against him. Even though he knows there are two people who may have cause against him, it never once occurs to him.

Than after Villefort promised to release Dantes, he saw how Villefort reacted to the name of the letter and how strangely Villefort suddenly began to act, and yet after being thrown in prison in spite of being told he would be freed, it never once crosses his mind that Villefort may have betrayed him.

I think that his naivety is more of a young person's innocence, rather than him just being stupid. Though most sailors were very vile and crude, but he was only 19 and obviously nothing as bad as this had happened to him before. It seems to be that he was so wrapped up in his reunion with his father and Mercedes and his new captain position that he was oblivious. He just assumed that since he was a very good man, others would be too. Maybe he hadn't had much experience with evil people, and sort of assumed that all men were as good natured as he is. He's in for a rude awakening.