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For discussion of these chapters

Now there is the ending I was looking for. This was simply a fantastic novel, and Gilbert and Helen are some of the more memorable characters I have come across!

I really enjoyed this book for the insights on Victorian marriages and for some really good writing. My only complaint was I thought we were kept waiting for the happy ending a little past the point of endurance.

I just loved this book. What a little gem! I loved that finally Gilbert and Helen were together married happily and all seemed right in the world....

Greg and Bea, I am glad you enjoyed it too! So happy we decided to read this novel.

I loved thus book! Helen had spunk. I am so happy Gilbert and Helen lived happily ever after.

Christyb wrote: "I loved thus book! Helen had spunk. I am so happy Gilbert and Helen lived happily ever after."

Oh good, Christy, glad you also liked it.

I did like it but I agree with Bea that we were strung along forever before getting to the happy ending.

I think it is a wonderful novel, too, and it is definitely an overlooked gem. Emily and Charlotte get all the attention. Although I have to say that it is far superior to Agnes Grey. Almost like two different people wrote them.

What I never really understood was why Helen fell in love with Gilbert. What did she see in him? I said elsewhere that I thought he often acted like a peevish adolescent. He formed a crush on Helen and was insanely jealous, and almost seemed like he felt that she owed him to be with him because he defended her against the gossip. I can understand why he fell for her - she was mysterious, beautiful, and after reading her diary, a figure of enormous sympathy.

I agree, Denise, although I did like Agnes Grey, it does now seen juvenile in comparison.

I guess at least to Helen, Gilbert was not a drinker, gambler, or womanizer, (and as you said he did stick up for her), as so many of the men she knew. Perhaps in that manner, he looked very good to her.

I absolutely loved this book -- once I got to chapter 30 I had an awfully difficult time putting it down, even during class. I loved how Arthur and Helen were kind of reincarnated so to speak in their namesakes, and how the two little ones were perfectly suited for one another so as to right the wrongs of their parents and rewrite their ill-fated love story. It was the perfect ending to a lovely book.

Micaelyn wrote: "I absolutely loved this book -- once I got to chapter 30 I had an awfully difficult time putting it down, even during class. I loved how Arthur and Helen were kind of reincarnated so to speak in th..."

Glad you enjoyed it too, Micaelyn.

What a great story! I really enjoyed Helen's narrative and was impressed by Bronte's characters, especially Arthur. Although he is handsome and charismatic, he is such a narcissistic sadist. His enjoyment of mentally torturing Helen made him such a despicable, but interesting character.

Denise - such a good observation of Gilbert! In our society today, if a friend mentioned that they were in love with a man who assaulted their brother in a jealous rage, we would tell them to run away from this man. Someone who loses self-control so easily is dangerous. I was surprised at how quickly Lawrence forgave Gilbert. Even after Helen's story, I didn't find Gilbert that likeable. He was so driven by his love for Helen. He was not a good friend to Lawrence - he just wanted to stay in touch with Helen.

I think my reaction to this book is similar to how I felt about Jane Eyre. I loved that book and loved the ending - Jane and Mr. Rochester living happily ever after. But when you step back and analyze Mr. Rochester's behavior, proposing to sweet, innocent Jane Eyre and not telling her about his previous wife who is a crazy woman living in the attic, he doesn't seem quite so heroic. Thanks, Marialyce, for that note about Anne Bronte's brother. Maybe she took it for granted that even the best of men are selfish and women have to accept their poor behavior. And thanks for moderating the discussion!

So glad you enjoyed the book too, Julie! I like what you said about Mr Rochester and Jane. I really did not think of that...great observation.
......and you are welcome. :)

What a great book! I'm just about finished, and I think I can safely say it was another amazing Bronte book! Though I too agree with Bea, that the only negative part about it was that it was somewhat drawn out. But still very much worth reading! It has such a good message to humanity. A true classic!

I had been wondering that myself, what did Helen see in Gilbert? He seemed immature to me, especially with his excessive jealousy. But he had a good heart and character, which she deserved.

I wish Anne were as popular as her sisters! I love Charlotte and Emily too, I just wish Anne would get some more attention.

I think that this book went up to my top five list. I was completely blown away by the fact that this young woman who never even had a boyfriend (or one that is mentioned anyway) could have the talent to write such a realistic portrayal of a marriage and the naivete a typical woman of the times had in terms of 'changing her husband's flaws' (which to be honest, us women still tend to make the same mistake today). I assume Anne used the experience from her brother's alcoholism to be able to write such descriptive and detailed events of Helen's husband's actions. IMO it's much more difficult to write convincing realistic stories than over the top Gothic romances... and yes I mean Emily. To me Anne's genius surpasses that of both her sisters, but more so Emily because Anne had the audacity to write about wives who abandoned their husbands and still survived, and actually had a happy ending with a man who was so much better. Society condemned Anne for such thoughts, but I salute her courage in depicting a facet of life that was clearly best kept hidden away, at least in the opinion of its leaders.

I couldn't have said it better Romina! I was also greatly impressed with her realistic writing abilty (concerning things she herself had never experienced), and I did think she kinda outdid Emily and Charlotte. Though their writing style leans more toward a whole different genre, making it a little hard to evaluate.

Marialyce, I don't think The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is available on netflix for streaming, so for you and anyone interested, here is part one on youtube. The entire series is up.

This is for people who have read and seen the Tenant of Wildfell Hall:
(view spoiler)[ While I really liked this series, I didn't like the cnages it made from the book. Arthur was physically abusive, something he never was in the book. And towards the end of the book, a character said that if he had been physically abusive, she could have applied to the law for help. Wouldn't that have made the whole part of her running away in secret pointless? Like she could have avoided the whole thing? Granted, most of the time in the series he was sexually abusive, so maybe English law at the time wasn't condemning to a husband about that? But there were other times when he would hit her in the face. I also didn't like the scene where, when Huntingdon asked Helen to her house keys, she held them in his face and then tossed them to the floor. That is NOT what happened in the book, and I felt that was completely untrue to her character. In the book she was so compliant and gentle, and then she goes and tries to start more trouble? (hide spoiler)]

Rachel wrote: "Marialyce, I don't think The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is available on netflix for streaming, so for you and anyone interested, here is part one on youtube. The entire series is up. ..."

Yes, Helen had a strong temper in the series which wasn't really following Bronte's original idea. Perhaps it was changed to accommodate a present day audience since it's a bit difficult for us today to watch another woman get beaten and not utter a sound in protest.
However, I'm not so sure about Arthur not being physically abusive to Helen. I think that Anne suggested or implied some abuse without outright saying it, probably not to cause even more of an uproar. There were some parts (I forget exactly which chapter) in which she purposely didn't explain what happened between Anne and her husband, so we as readers can assume that it was more than mental abuse. At least, that's how I see it!
And no, even if she had the 'right' to go and ask the Law for help for being beaten up, she wouldn't have gone because of the humiliation it would have caused her, not to mention the danger of Arthur taking her child anyway, which was her major concern. Women of the times simply didn't denounce their husbands... I mean even today, most wouldn't, regardless of their sufferings.

I liked the mini, but I wouldn't mind watching a new adaptation with a good screen writer, like Sandy Welch.

Rachel wrote: "I couldn't have said it better Romina! I was also greatly impressed with her realistic writing abilty (concerning things she herself had never experienced), and I did think she kinda outdid Emily a..."

Thanks Rachel! There's an article on this link



which talks about how Emily and Charlotte actually prevented Anne's story from being published after her death, possibly due to the fact that TTOWH was a direct response to the romantic and silly ideas of Wuthering Heights and how Anne tried to warn women not to believe in it. It also considers Anne as the 'most genius' of the three and I heartily agree. I'll post a part of it so you can get a feel of what the writer is talking about:

"Anne's Challenge to Wuthering Heights

Agnes Grey was a story of the trials and tribulations encountered by an inexperienced nineteen year old girl who set out to make her own way in the world as a governess, just as Anne herself had done. Indeed the whole novel was based largely on Anne's own experiences in her two posts as a governess. In contrast, Emily's Wuthering Heights was a very dramatic, passion-packed, fictional-fantasy, which immediately caught the public's eye and stole the limelight from Anne's more down-to-earth, realistic story-line book. Nine months later, in July 1848, Anne fired back with her second novel The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. It seems that Anne was concerned over the presentation of certain themes in Wuthering Heights - and wanted to put forward a challenge to it, exhibiting some of the same themes - but in a more realistic context. One example is the excessive drunkenness which pervades Emily's story - while the ill-consequences of it are not made obvious. The sisters were all too aware of its effect; having witnessed it ruin their brother, Branwell. 'Anne is determined that her readers will feel the degradation of drunkenness' asserts Edward Chitham.68 The Tenant of Wildfell Hall was an instant, phenomenal success, and rapidly outsold Emily's all-time classic. In her preface to the second edition, written a few months later, Anne hinted that she perceived Emily's story as 'much soft nonsense': 'if I can gain the public ear at all, I would rather whisper a few wholesome truths therein than much soft nonsense' she declared; and Wildfell Hall has since been said to mock Emily's novel - even in its initials: it is now generally acknowledged as Anne's answer to Wuthering Heights.69

The essence of the story is a woman, Helen Huntingdon, who flees her persistently drunk and brutal husband, and their family home; taking with her their young son whom she is determined to protect from his father's influences. They go into hiding in an old, uninhabited, Elizabethan mansion (Wildfell Hall), and she manages to support herself and son by working as an artist. This whole scenario was a taboo subject to the Victorians - not to say an illegal act! 70n - and there was a strong reaction from many quarters. Many years later, in 1913, May Sinclair - one of the Brontës' biographers - declared that 'the slamming of Helen Huntingdon's bedroom door against her husband reverberated through Victorian England'

The themes Anne presented in this novel were very daring for the Victorian era, and she gave them bold treatment: no punches were pulled in her depiction of scenes of mental and physical cruelty. Many critics slammed the book for its coarseness, and its 'morbid revelling in scenes of debauchery'. Anne had observed, close at hand, how Branwell's dissolute ways were gradually destroying him: and one of her objects in writing Wildfell Hall was to warn other young people against following the same path. Her aims were not only, totally misinterpreted by Charlotte, but also by her reading public, many of whom took the story as having been created purely as 'lively entertainment'; others considered that she had a 'scandalous insistence' on presenting scenes 'which public decency usually forbids'.71 These opinions were also expressed in many of the reviews:

The reviewer in Sharpe's London Magazine declared that his article on The Tenant of Wildfell Hall was written merely to warn his readers, especially his lady readers, against reading the book. He was confident the writer was a man rather than a woman, and condemned the 'profane expressions, inconceivably coarse language, and revolting scenes and descriptions by which its pages are disfigured'.72 The Spectator accused the author of having 'a morbid love of the course, not to say of the brutal'.73 The critic in the Rambler declared that The Tenant of Wildfell Hall was 'one of the coarsest books which we ever perused', and went on to condemn the author's 'perpetual tendency to relapse into that class of ideas, expressions, and circumstances, which is most connected with the grosser and more animal portion of our nature'.74 However, even amongst these early reviewers, there were those who detected the incredible literary talent behind the novel: The Spectator had declared: 'The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, like its predecessor, suggests the idea of considerable abilities ill applied. There is power, effect, and even nature, though of an extreme kind, in its pages',75 and an American critic later wrote in the North American Review: 'All the characters are drawn with great power and precision of outline and the scenes are as vivid as life itself. . .', but that it brings the reader 'into the closest proximity with naked vice, and there are conversations such as we had hoped never to see printed in English': 76 he then went on to generally criticise the novel's coarseness and declared that it would leave in the reader an impression of horror and disgust. He would have been quite shocked had he been told that this was precisely the author's intention.77 In her preface to the second edition, written a few months later, Anne defended her motives in the way she had presented her subjects:

' . . . when we have to do with vice and vicious characters, I maintain it is better to depict them as they really are than as they would wish to appear. To represent a bad thing in its least offensive light is, doubtless, the most agreeable course for a writer of fiction to pursue; but is it the most honest, or the safest? Is it better to reveal the snares and pitfalls of life to the young and thoughtless traveller, or to cover them with branches and flowers? Oh, reader! if there were less of this delicate concealment of facts - this whispering, 'Peace, peace,' when their is no peace, there would be less of sin and misery to the young of both sexes who are left to wring their bitter knowledge from experience.

My object in writing the following pages was not simply to amuse the Reader; neither was it to gratify my own taste, nor yet to ingratiate myself with the Press and the Public: I wished to tell the truth, for truth always conveys its own moral to those who are able to receive it.' In this book 'the case is an extreme one, as I trusted none would fail to perceive, but I know that such characters do exist, and if I have warned one rash youth from following in their steps, or prevented one thoughtless girl from falling into the very natural error of my heroine, the book has not been written in vain: . . . when I feel it my duty to speak an unpalatable truth, with the help of God, I will speak it, though it be to the prejudice of my name and to the detriment of my reader's immediate pleasure as well as my own.'.

When the sisters' novels became due for a reprint in 1850 - just over a year after Anne and Emily had died, Charlotte prevented the re-publication of Wildfell Hall. Some believe that Charlotte's suppression of the book was to protect her younger sister's memory from this adverse onslaught to her character. However, Wuthering Heights had brought similar accusations on Emily, yet Charlotte did not take the same action on Emily's behalf, despite always appearing to have been closer to her than she was to Anne; seeming to make this a rather weak argument. Others believe Charlotte was jealous of her younger sister.78 There are many instances of Charlotte slighting Anne throughout her later life. Anne had always been the dependant, coddled baby of the family, the 'cherished and protected little one', and, it seems, in later years Charlotte was finding it difficult to accept her as a mature and independent young woman producing literary work that could match, and maybe even surpass her own. Whatever the reason was, Charlotte lived on for another five years during which time her later novels, along with Jane Eyre and Emily's Wuthering Heights continued to be published, firmly launching these two sisters into literary stardom; while Anne's masterpiece was completely suppressed. The Tenant of Wildfell Hall was eventually re-published, some six years after the 'second edition', but by this time had 'missed the boat', leaving Anne forever in the shade of her two sisters. Even the re-publication did not help matters, appearing in a cropped and heavily edited form (see 'The Mutilated Texts of the TWH' - later)."

I never quite understood why Charlotte prevented the re-publication of TOWH. I guess we'll never know for sure quite why! But it is sad that she "missed the boat". Even today we see the consequences of it. There are for more film adaptions of Emily and Charlotte's books than of Anne's. And Anne seems to be the least read in most literature classes.

wow, thanks for posting that! That's a lot of food for thought. :) I think I have a higher respect for Anne over her sisters. Don't get me wrong, I still LOVE their novels! There's is a different type of beauty, and all 3 sisters are wonderful additions to the literary world.

Rachel wrote: "I never quite understood why Charlotte prevented the re-publication of TOWH. I guess we'll never know for sure quite why! But it is sad that she "missed the boat". Even today we see the consequence..."

Oh yes, I definitely love Charlotte's work and Jane Eyre is probably my favorite Victorian novel. Wuthering Heights, not so much though, I never could truly understand the OTT obsession that Heathcliff had for Cathy. Emily was the most poetic of the three though, that's for sure!

I'm glad you liked the article, and it is so sad that most people still ignore Anne until today. Perhaps if they start adapting some of her novels people will remember her again and value her true literary talents.

I would love to see Anne's novels adapted in films! That would get her more attention as well. There are countless adaptions of Austen films, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, and Charles Dickens films. Why can't we get something new? I hoping the recent adaptions of Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights will spark some interest in the other Bronte novels.

haha I love Wuthering Heights. I can't decide if I like that or Jane Eyre better. They kind of tie for first...

WH, my favorite classic book ever!

Great article, Romina, thank you!

I haven't read along with you all for different reasons, but I am glad to see so many of you enjoyed it. I love the book and admire Anne for her courage to write this when she did. Such a shame that it is not as well known as Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre

Thanks for posting that interesting article, Romina!

I'm not sure that Agnes Grey would make such a great movie, and I'm sure they would want to alter it a lot to make it more interesting or even sexy! A new production of Tenant would be great, though!

Rachel wrote: "I would love to see Anne's novels adapted in films! That would get her more attention as well. There are countless adaptions of Austen films, Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights, and Charles Dickens films..."

Yes, I mean there's Villete for example, which I think has never been adapted... it would be interesting to see it on screen.

Marialyce wrote: "WH, my favorite classic book ever!

Great article, Romina, thank you!"

I also thought it was a great article Marialyce, so I'm glad some of you liked it too. It is rather long, but it has such interesting points of views that it's definitely worth the read. The first time I read it, it totally opened up my horizons and I viewed both stories very differently.

Denise wrote: "Thanks for posting that interesting article, Romina!

I'm not sure that Agnes Grey would make such a great movie, and I'm sure they would want to alter it a lot to make it more interesting or eve..."

Perhaps AG wouldn't be so great adapted, but it'll be refreshing to see it anyway, just to have a change from Austen, Dickens, and Wuthering Heights and J.Eyre. But I definitely agree with you about having a new 'Tenant', it's time! :)

Oh yeah, I totally want a new Tenant. I mean, I LOVE Toby Stevens, but like I said, I want a more faithful adaption. I've never read Villette, but I read that a lot of it's critics from the time it was written considered the writing to be more powerful than JE! So why are there so many JE adaptions, but only one old Villette adaption? And I can't find it anywhere online! Does anyone know where I can find it? It came out in the 70's, and apparantly it wasn't a hit.

I haven't read Agnes Gray, but I'm now wondering why everyone is saying it wouldn't make a great film?

I loved this book so much. Could happily have read on for another few hundred pages - I really struggled to put it down! I was thoroughly impressed by Anne's writing - if you ask me, she's far better than Charlotte and Emily put together! Can't wait to read Agnes Grey now!

I was so happy that Gilbert and Helen got together after years of strife that kept them apart. I think it was a case of their souls saying "Oh - there you are!" when they met� their connection was so deep.

Did anyone else think the rose section was utterly beautiful?!

I did chuckle at mini-Arthur and mini-Helen getting together and living in Grassdale� oh, dear - I hope history doesn't repeat itself for them!

I too think that the physical violence was implied� But even if she had been able to get a divorce, I think her faith prevented her from doing so. She was deeply convicted of her duties as a wife and was not the sort of person to go back on the solemn vows that she made to God.

I would love to see a new adaptation, too. I think Tara Fitzgerald and Toby Stephens are really good actors, but I don't like how much of the novel was either missing or completely altered.

So glad you liked it too, Lois. Agnes Grey is quite different though, but still a good read. As I recall, it is very short too!

I'm tempted to start it now, but feel I ought to finish Pride and Prejudice first, since I'm 82% through it!

I thought the mini Arthur and minu Helen was so cute too! However, I really don't think history will repeat itself for them. It think that was the author's way of telling of the hope for the future, of leaving us with a happy ending.
I really admired Helen for not divorcing, even if she could have. She did her best to stick it out.

Bea wrote: "I really enjoyed this book for the insights on Victorian marriages and for some really good writing. My only complaint was I thought we were kept waiting for the happy ending a little past the poi..." I agree! It was a bit ridiculous in the last 50 or so pages.

Just finish Tenant. Was racing to get to the end, and was truly hooked. I have to think more about my overall thoughts of the book. I thought it was compelling and was a very good (sad) depiction of the lack of options for Victorian women trapped in an abusive marriage. And, of course, like everyone, I love a happy ending. I wasn't a big fan of the narrative, letters/diaries patched together and started to find Helen tedious after a while -- the incredibly unselfish, forgiving and pious "angel" (of course, very Victorian). In addition, like Bea mentioned, the end, and the misunderstandings and lack of communications that drag out this ending, don't add a lot (except pages). That being said, I really enjoyed it -- though not as much as the other Bronte sisters.

Rachel wrote: "What a great book! I'm just about finished, and I think I can safely say it was another amazing Bronte book! Though I too agree with Bea, that the only negative part about it was that it was somewh..."

I think she fell in love with Gilbert because he constantly showed her that he cared for her. Coming from a marriage where the guy could care less about her other than to make him comfortable, even the jealousy becomes a sign that she is cared about. JMO.

Good point Deborah. I think that even though what Gilbert did out of jealousy was wrong and probably scared Helen, she still realized how much he cared.

Helen never finds out about Gilbert's attack on Lawrence. Lawrence said he wouldn't tell Helen what happened, probably stuck to the story about being thrown from his pony that was used in town, and Gilbert didn't have the strength to tell her himself. I wonder what she would have thought if she'd known.

I didn't find Gilbert unlikeable, but still not good enough for Helen. Although she did seem a little good, especially in comparison to the other characters in the book. I really loved her as a woman though, so strong, she stood up to the vicar and all themumbling mothers. I wonder if sometimes Anne felt a little bit like Helen, had all these lofty ideals that no one, sometimes not even her sisters who were more demure, would listen to.

I definitely prefer Anne to the rest of the Brontes. Who story had a veil of optimism, but not so much so that it clouded reality. I liked that.

Becky wrote: "I definitely prefer Anne to the rest of the Brontes."

Same here! There's no comparison - she's leagues above the other two!

There are several things I'd like to mention:
Helen never finds out about Gilbert's assault of her brother because Lawrence accepts Gilbert's apology � he was the one who chose to cover it up, Gilbert was asking for Lawrence to send his apology with the knowledge of the incident.
Gilbert is otherwise, by no means unworthy. Yes, he's rash and easily misunderstands situations, but he is generally a well-read, intelligent, honest, and good man � not un-likeable (though not to everyone's taste).
As for the comparisons of the Brontë's as a whole: it is too easy to go to extremes and/ or confuse one's opinion with the worth or greatness of the authors. Having read at least one book and poem by each, I can say that they are all equally great writers (though Charlotte is my least favourite), and are all very different: Charlotte tended to write in the first person and focused on the social, Emily Jane wrote using many cadences and sound devices and her focus is psychology (ex. extremely complex characters, the affect of environment and upbringing) and dynamic (of events, relationships, etc.), Anne wrote in the first person and focused on moral and religious issues. Though, due to their fame alone, Charlotte and Emily are frequently grouped together, Emily and Anne were much closer (Charlotte was closest to Branwell, but that went sour in his decline: they wrote the Angora Cycle � whereas the younger two sisters wrote about Gondal � as the bulk of their juvenilia). Charlotte's well-intentioned editing has also had the worst effect on "Wuthering Heights" � though Charlotte seems to have had some odd quarrel with Anne (thus the lack of reprinting during Charlotte's life), who, once she said her piece, would not change her public opinion. Also, Branwell died September 1848 at age thirty-one, Emily Jane died December of that same year at age 31, Anne died on the 28th of May 1849 at age twenty-nine, Charlotte died in 1855 at the age of forty (there seemed to be some confusion regarding that). "Agnes Grey" was published in 1847 with "Wuthering Heights," but it is important to note that "The Tenant of Wildfell Hall" was published the following year, in response to Branwell's alcoholism and addiction to opium, as well as to focus and respond to various points in "Wuthering Heights" (or, rather, to address the issues of Isabella and Hindley, but with a character who is virtuous).

My feelings having finished the book is a sort of excitement: it required racing to the end. The plot was really good, and the ending was the best that could be written to tie the points together and end the book. When looking at the themes, arguments, etc., Anne is convincing and blunt (yet subtle) as ever. She has created sympathetic characters who's situations (and they themselves) raise interesting moral issues with no definite answer for many of them. What is clear, is that English laws regarding marriage and a wife's rights were � at the time � inadequate, if not wrong: the right for separation without physical abuse or adultery on the part of the woman, the laws regarding child-custody, and the property and earning rights of married women. A wonderful and thought-provoking read!

Julie wrote: "What a great story! I really enjoyed Helen's narrative and was impressed by Bronte's characters, especially Arthur. Although he is handsome and charismatic, he is such a narcissistic sadist. His..."

I just want to add that Mr Rochester and Gilbert are both not heros: I don't think they were never meant to be. Though I completely agree in your evaluation of them: Gilbert frequently acts like a peevish adolescent, and Mr Rochester is, in many ways, morally dubious.