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Kelly's Reviews > Before We Met

Before We Met by Lucie Whitehouse
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it was ok
bookshelves: did-not-finish, fiction

Okay, ladies, we need to talk. The review space for this book is going to get the brunt of something it probably doesn't deserve, but is a good example and there there is something that I just don't understand that we need to clear up. Dudes, I suppose that you can offer your opinions, but I'm not sure that you'll have as many answers to all of my questions.

So I've read a lot of romance novels over the course of my life. Starting far too early, I've been reading the fantasies of grown-ass women written in the 80s and 90s, fantasies that came out the other end of many years of life lived, gendered, sometimes historically fucked up and repressed in a way that I couldn't begin to understand as a pre-teen, with no exposure whatsoever to this sort of shit. It was a weirdly post-modern experience in the most literal sense- I turned on the porn in the fourth act without any idea of the beginning or end of it and how we got there and thought that this was the way that it was. It took me a lot more time than it should have to figure out that this was not the only way it was or possibly should be. It was pretty much a ragefest when I slowly, and then all at once, figured all of that out.

It's been a number of years, but I've got another ragefest simmering, and once again, its over a group of books written by women, I would imagine largely for women (sadly), rooted deeply in the imagination of women. I may be slightly more equipped to understand it, but still find myself sputtering. I'll try to articulate as best I can, though.

Here goes:

I have read a large, but growing group of books with female protagonists who make my skin crawl in a growing, but then finally undeniable way, to the point that I am forced to put the book down. The Lantern was the first example where I was able to put a finger on it. But there have been more. This book was a huge example. I just tried to read The Husband's Secret and it was exactly the same shit. Whitehouse's House at Midnight had it blatantly at the beginning and then was run through with a more sinister, belowground version of it through the rest of the book. Jane Green's books do it, some of Emily Giffin's do.

The major thing that all these books have in common a female protagonist who opens the book trying to prove herself to us, from the first page. She will insinuate or outright tell us, over and over again over the course of the first few chapters (and throughout the book in case you forget) that her heroine is superior to those around her.

Well sure, you might say. All books need to get us connected to their heroes and make us interested in their story. That seems reasonable.

And I agree with you- but not in this case. Because the way these books establish this connection is through this nasty, gendered way that's sometimes perfectly blatant and straightforward, and more awfully, done largely through the use of code words and subconscious dog whistles that I would sometimes imagine that the author isn't even aware they are using. They are the sort of words that you absorb and feel eager to repeat because you know they gain approval and are a natural part of the landscape of the kind of books you write- like how good female characters' "eyes dance" and sympathetic protagonists always "arch their eyebrows" to show their sardonic, likeable humor in fantasy novels. It's an instantly recognizable, subconscious code to anyone who has ever read the genre- relax around this character. Breathe easy. This is one of us.

And it's these books' horrible idea of what "one of us" means that is just killing me. The code for "one of us" that these books push is wrapped up in this deeply fucked up mess of capitalistic, traditional feminine, societal and high-school-code status symbols that would be fascinating to untangle if they weren't so awful.

Here's a typical mix of how it goes:

Capitalistic: In the first few chapters, we'll be treated to a demonstration of the characters' wealth and status. Usually this involves a recitation of various expensive, luxury brands and expensive objects that she has access to. Usually there is some Puritan excuse about how she married into this wealth, or got it from someone else, or how she has worked her whole life in comparison to her layabout family. If she doesn't have wealth, either she will spend the whole book being superior to those characters who do have wealth, or will appreciate it in a nice "if only I could have it" wistfully annoying way- and be sure she will be awarded it by the end of the novel, all the while protesting that she "would rather have had....." (blah blah blah morally superior thing). I have no literal idea what books want to accomplish with this- giving us the aspirational fantasy we want, but still ascribing to its reader the work ethic that will reassure us that it is okay for us to want it? Is this a "celebrities they're just like us!" moment- we're delighted to be brought into the orbit of such a high status woman and, like the popular girl on the playground choosing to talk to us, we'll be so delighted to have the privilege to be inside her mind, we'll attach to her immediately because she gave us that honor? I'd say maybe it was an American thing, but I've seen it in British novels as well- sometimes even more blatantly.

Ah, and then there's the misogynistic, high-school-mean-girl shit. Even worse. We are constantly treated to descriptions of what these girls look like and what they are wearing- we are told about it every time they change clothes- every time their hair is out of place. And I guarantee you we're going to get words like "slender"/"thin"/"she didn't have a perfect body but she'd never had trouble attracting a man"- and, of course- "she wasn't model thin like those blonde girls who sat at the popular table in high school, but she was...." (blah blah blah morally superior). It's all about the girl on girl crime. In The Husband's Secret, within twenty pages, the main character had bitchily taken down most of her friends with one catty swipe of claws and established her and her family's superiority to them. Often this is done by sheer comparison of description and the adjectives chosen, added up. Like... I don't know... this is supposed to speak to my deep-seeded sense that I am really better than all my friends? Especially if they are pretty- if we have to have the almighty crime of admitting that they are prettier than us, then they have to suffer. They will be dumb, mean, selfish, ambitious, rude, sexual in a "distasteful" way (probably coming on to your husband or being "indiscriminate" in her tastes), have a difficult personality that "only appeals to some", be an actual angel come to earth that all of us can make fun of in our heads for thinking unicorns exist or whatever. How fucking DARE they be prettier than us- don't worry, we'll provide you with a reason to hate them. That is if any other woman is allowed to have an image at all. Get off the stage, I am the fairest of them all.

But most of the time other women are on stage- because these books- it's like a constant game of one-upsmanship in a very specifically female way. Our protagonists have to come out on top in comparison to other females, even if only by implication (and of course the protagonist would never think of it that way! But she's rewarded with that victory anyway). Everything that happens- the plot she's involved in, her observations and interactions with other women and especially her romance- all read like points on a scoreboard. These are not books about personal transformation except on the most surface level, and usually only in the service of getting one of these status-y things. These books read as competition, like some sort of fantasy of jealousy, of being the person that others envy- all with the excuse of moral superiority that just happens to grant you all the high status stuff that you wanted.

It's gross. It so often reads like a shy girl's fantasy come to life- someone who would have wanted to be queen bee and be just as bitchy as that blonde girl, but never had the balls to actually do it, and so constructed an idea of themselves based around being morally superior to it, while all the while wishing they could be part of it. It's sick- it's the worst feelings that girl-on-girl envy can produce, and what's worse, I am expected to identify with them. It's a martyrdom complex taken to an extreme. It is a childish emotional depth that I cannot accept.

What the actual fuck, ladies? Like... is this a genre thing? Is this still the leftovers of all the competition that women felt they had to do for men, because they thought they were the key to survival in the world (and still think this)? Is this something we're going through the motions of and have gotten to the point where we fill in an out-of-date formula and don't even realize what we're doing?

It's like women still trying to prove how "normal" and "likeable" they are by spitting out a bunch of words that they think do that- isn't this what I'm supposed to want?? Do you love me yet?? Do you approve of my totally normal, not weird beautiful character who is better than everyone?? Is this what you wanted from me? Why are we still trying to please men and judgmental women who were never going to like you anyways??

It's sad and gross all at once.

And no, I don't think that this is a case of really good characterization. I see this too much. Either something has infected this genre- too often and grossly called "middlebrow" fiction- or there's something going on that we haven't confronted. I don't accept that this is what we honestly want out of our protagonists, ladies. It can't be. Can it?

Especially because it is so desperately fake- that's what I saw in the Lantern. There was a fascinating person with interesting ideas (or the start of them anyway) behind that woman who put on a fake feminine voice and flashed her diamond ring and big house-porny house at the beginning to let us know we should envy her. Why the eff are we leading with that diamond flashing woman all the time? House at Midnight did it too- I haaaaattteeeed protagonist at the beginning. Could we talk more about how middle class she was and how all her friends were super rich and classy and amazing and went to Oxford?? Oh please, can we?? And then the rest of the book, her relationship with her boyfriend was basically just a show to generate jealousy, and based on an attraction that seemed to be based on nothing at all that we're actually shown. But, again, there were some moments of truth in the book- again, towards the end, once she seemed sure that she had us and we weren't going anywhere. They peeked out here and there. I couldn't even get past this lead-in with Before We Met- maybe it would have been the same here.

Why do we think this is what we need to get women to invest in other women characters? Why do we need to envy them or hate them? Or at the very least be super smug about relating to them? (I'm not talking about identifying- which is different and more truthful. I'm talking about blatant ploys for readers to insert themselves like talking about how they were never one of the popular girls or can't believe they ended up with this gorgeous husband, surely he will leave me.)

I've sort of noticed this for awhile, but I think that part of my anger about this was that I thought I had discovered a subset of the genre where I was safe from all this. I have since discovered that it has a name- "chick noir." Which I HATE. Please let me be clear about how much I HATE that. But at least it put together a group of books that I was almost invariably interested in. As far as I can work out, the label seems to mean that the book is probably some type of psychological thriller, focused on a woman, probably having a lot of domestic backgrounds and settings, probably involving a romantic relationship of some kind. (Hence the horrible "chick" I assume.) But my favorite part of the genre has absolutely been the amazing main character females and the fact that we get to spend a whole lot of time inside their heads because of the psychological thriller part. Gone Girl and Gillian Flynn's other novels are probably the best examples of this fledgling drama, but there are other ones. Tana French's The Likeness would count as one of them, too. I just finished Sacrifice by SJ Bolton, I'd put it in there too. I found them an honest relief. Barely a flicker of the tangled mass of handed down feminine horror show shit that had characterized these other books (unless it was briefly organic to the plot or character development)- sometimes I didn't even know what the woman looked like! And guess what? it couldn't matter less to the plot if I did or not. And I was totally enthralled with being inside their heads- usually they were smart, smart-alecky, and smartly constructed messes of actual human beings.

What a fucking relief.

But you know what I've discovered, reading reviews of these books? That people seem absolutely offended by these characters' refusal to perform the usual feminine rituals of self-hatred, self-abnegation, to provide us with words that are supposed to make our brains light up with envy, of giggling behind our hands at some other woman, telling us how beautiful the character is to give her currency when she does bad things. Of course, especially in the Gillian Flynn novels, the main characters ARE deeply fucked up, and often this is in direct engagement with their feminine societal roles, or in direct reaction to it. I'm not asking anyone to like these characters- but what I was shocked by were reviews calling characters "sociopathic" for refusing to perform these rituals.

Is anyone else watching that show UNreal, yet? About the backstage drama at a "Bachelor" like show? If not, I don't know if I can recommend it- but I can assure you that it is among the most fucked up shit I have ever seen. The whole show is about women doing horrible things to each other, often in the service of a male presence who is barely even there, but they are always aware of in the back of their mind- they only make their presence felt occasionally, but that's all they need to do to send these women back into the most horrible spirals. They don't even need to be there for women to act on their behalf. And the women running the show KNOW what the worst things they can do each other are. It's the worst gendered horror I've seen in awhile.

I don't get it. Why do we like watching other women, fictional or not, do this? Why are we reading books about it? Why do we allow ourselves to subconsciously code characters in this way and reject characters who don't follow it?

I think this is part of the reason I've loved, to no end, Elena Ferrante's Neapolitan novels so much. For not a second, for not an actual second, does that narrator of those books put on a pose for me, the reader. Oh, she does to those around her and a lot of what she goes through is about feminine role construction, but not to me. not to me the reader. It feels like these characters that I complain about are doing it to me, the reader. That's, in the end, I think what infuriates me the most. It's like these books, these authors, stopped halfway. Yes, all these things these characters do and say happen and people feel this way- but why? And please stop, please stop giving me those stupid pop psychology answers and easy outs like we always get.

And I'm not just citing pretentious European literature and trying to compare apples to oranges. Emily Giffin's Something Borrowed tried to engage with this status fight thing by at least acknowledging it- her character was the embodiment of this female status envy. She bought into it a bit in a way that was not helpful, but it was transfixing to watch because of it. There are others that do the same- even Plum Sykes' Bergdorf Blondes, which was all about labels and brand names at least had an honest heart to it that made the labels all so much comedy.

A line I will never forget from a romance novel, written in the early 2000s- it's from the fourth or fifth in one of those family romance series, where there are several siblings and each book is about one member of the family finding their true love or whatever. The love interest is being introduced to the wider family for the first time and the love interests from the previous three novels appear to pick up their children and kiss their men after some sort of Christmas performance. The character observes something to the effect of:

"Here they were, three shining angels, each one more beautiful than the last, sunbeams shining in the eyes of women who have found their true places in the world."

It's said with envy and longing, and is the occasion for the new protagonist to go into the depths of self-hatred and darkness and turn around all the more determined to prove herself to her big, handsome man and prove to him, and to us the reader, that she is just as worthy of love as those "beautiful angels". And she totally does- putting herself in unreasonable mortal danger with her PTSD diagnosed paramour for no reason whatsoever other than the deep feelings of inferiority these women inspired.

I'm just so over it. Maybe someone can explain it to me and tell me why the sorts of books I'm describing are appealing. I mean, is it in the same way that celebrity gossip sites and fashion police shows after red carpets are? Okay- but then come out with the cattiness. What I can't stand is this thing where we wrap it up in sanctimonious moral superiority and pretend like it's something else so that we can feel better about ourselves. Like... is this really the fantasy we like? We actually want to be these women? Surely not.

More than anything else, I feel like it is a waste. An utter and complete waste- because just like that woman in The Lantern- there are so many more interesting things that we could talk about if we let down our guard for approximately two seconds. Stuff that slips out between the cracks, stuff that we only get to long after you're sure that I won't leave you. It's like the fucking cocktail party with work acquaintances that won't end. Can we do the shots of tequila like two hours earlier to give us all the excuse to be silly and be normal people? Can we stop looking around furtively and looking for the person we're supposed to be impressing?

This is fiction, forgodsakes. Do you really think your readers are like all those people who were mean to you in high school? Do you really think, have you really absorbed that lesson, that this is what people are like?

Let it go. That's what books are for. We get to get away from things and show our true selves.

Otherwise it's not worth it.

Ladies, talk to me. Let's discuss. Explain this shit to me. Because I have had it.



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Reading Progress

Started Reading
July 1, 2015 – Finished Reading
July 3, 2015 – Shelved
July 3, 2015 – Shelved as: fiction
July 3, 2015 – Shelved as: did-not-finish
July 3, 2015 – Shelved as: to-read

Comments Showing 1-50 of 51 (51 new)


karen way better.


message 2: by Kelly (last edited Jul 08, 2015 01:36PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kelly I've just started it (House at Midnight) and the first twenty pages or so were still kind of annoying, but I agree, it is getting way better now in some ways.


karen phew!


Kelly I'm glad too! So many smart people love this, I would have wondered what was wrong with me. Did you read her second one? I heard that was also good.


karen i have not. it wasn't available through bn back when i worked there, so i put it in the "find someday" corner of my brain, but that's such a poorly-lit part of town, i don't know if it will ever happen.


message 6: by Warwick (new)

Warwick Excellent essay. Not really qualified to comment, but just one tangential point that occurred to me, reading that, is that the irritating ways in which female protagonists are so often made "relatable" by bad authors to the reader are � quite apart from the poisonous stuff you mention � completely anachronistic and/or culturally inappropriate in many novels. The idea that medieval heroines would react to their society with the kind of high-school snark that you analyze so well knocks me completely out of my suspension of disbelief.


message 7: by Wastrel (last edited Jul 08, 2015 05:54PM) (new)

Wastrel Jocular response [wait, when did I become an Elcor? oh never mind]: clearly, this just shows the liberating triumph of new publishing. Now Cordelia Chase can be a novelist!

More seriously, as a guy, and one who grew up reading a very (at least at the time) stereotypically guy genre (fantasy; actually a lot of the authors were women, but the main audience was teenage boys), what strikes me about what you describe is just how similar it is to male roles in fiction.

So much of the apparatus of traditional fiction genres, plots, characters, tropes, exists entirely to play out exaggerated fantasies of the machinery of male dominance hierarchies. It's all defeating your enemy in single combat (preferably through violence, but metaphorical combat will do in a pinch), being recognised for your courage, being calm (and ideally witty) in a crisis, rising to a position where you can order other men around and ideally command their loyalty too, being chivalrous to women and merciful to peons, winning the heart of an obdurate maiden and gaining the unquestioning love of an obediant wife (these two can be hard to combine, since it's hard to write a character who is convincing both as obdurate maiden AND unquestioning wife, but...), to whom you're absolutely faithful despite the OODLES of women making themselves sexually available only to you, which ideally all the other men should know about.

Or to sum it up, in its rawest form it's Whateverhernamewasitwasn'timportant the buxum and nubile girl throwing herself at sporting hero Flash Gordon and shouting "save us, Flash, you're our only hope!" - entire genres have been built upon this!

Or on variations of it. Fantasy, for instance, with an audience including many weak and unpopular geeks, has always been keen on stressing the "you thought he was just a weak and unpopular geek, but really he has a hidden talent, which all you jocks will recognise, and then you'll appoint him your military leader and give him all your womenz!" part of this machinery. Westerns and mafia films, on the other hand, stress the "he's so badass, not only can he get all the womenz he wants, he's too busy being a badass to care! And even though everyone would instantly appoint him their military leader, there's too much badassing to be done out of town for him to ever settle down..." part.

[Fantasy in particular often comes very close indeed to your house-porny issues, although for fantasy it's more kingdom-porn and army-porn and whatnot. It's "look how stupid and/or immoral those jocks are with their armies and their jousting, Our Hero the scholarly orphan with the limp who everyone bullies will turn out to be the real key to defeating the Evil One! Oh, and although he's never been interested in that fighting stuff, it turns out he's surprisingly good at it and they'll elect him king and he'll be a military genius and basically do and be everything that those stupid jocks want to do and be. But, you know, it's not like he cares about that sort of thing, because that would be stupid."]


So I guess what I'm trying to say is: people are obsessed with dominance hierarchies. And for a long time, that's meant that most of our stories (not all, and particularly not the more capable, but still an awful lot of them) are basically reliving the ways that boys create their hierarchies (I'd say "the way that boys compare the sizes of their penises", but we all know that it's the other way around - if boys ever do that, it's not out of pride, or eagerness to please future partners sexually, it's just a way for boys with big penises to reinforce dominance over others...).
And now we are in an era where most authors are women, and probably most readers are women, outside of a few holdout genres, and so I suppose it's almost inevitable that we're going to start seeing more and more books that are basically about female dominance hierarchies, reliving the ways that girls establish THEIR hierarchies.

How much of the difference between these two systems of dominance is down to difference in instinct, and how much is simply down to social gender roles, I guess is an unanswerable question at present. I tend to assume it's mostly the latter, with maybe a bit of the former.

Personally, I tend to find the male fantasies more interesting. For two reasons: because I just find a badass fight more engaging than a bitchy put-down (in most cases - Malcom Tucker and Edmund Blackadder being exceptions); but also because male fantasies so often revolve around defending our womenfolk from A Threat, and putting A Threat into the story lets something interesting and external break into the world of the hierarchy - whereas what I dislike most when I encounter the 'feminine' equivalent is that it can very easily become enclosed, self-absorbed, and disconnected from the outside. Indeed, when you isolate a 'masculine' hierarchy from outside, it starts to look a lot more like a cliche girl-clique... so sitcoms, trapped in a house or an office, often start to look more like the plot-lines you describe (some sitcoms even intentionally play with the confusion of gender roles that this entails).

Oh, and much of the stuff about the role of the other gender you describe, that's true on the other side too. Just as your hunky guys are only periphally present but spark off all these dominance-displays among the women, so too the beautiful princess (or widowed young landowner, prom queen (or sardonic sexy tomboy who's beautiful enough to be prom queen but doesn't care about that sort of thing because she's totally not shallow) exchange for female role appropriate to the genre) is often kept largely out of sight, existing only to push the boys into fighting over her (and in the ideal form of the story, having fought each other they then Acknowledge Each Other As Men, become Sworn Brothers, fight as one against the enemy to save the princess, and in the process accidentally stumble upon some other woman-person who can be used as runner-up prize for the less-geeky boy (who must always lose in the end)).
And, of course, the competition for the princess leads to Our Hero spending a lot of time moping about how he's not as strong or as popular as That Bastard and why would the princess ever fall in love with him, and basically being self-loathing. Degress of, and external expressions of, self-loathing vary with the genre. And then, of course, going and doing ridiculously dangerous and stupid things to prove his worth to the princess. Or, as dangerous and stupid displays of vanity are otherwise known, "the plot".

[I guess there's a difference there... am I right in thinking that Acknowledging Each Other As Women doesn't play as large a role in female dominance fantasies? And at least traditionally there was a lot of 'sworn sisters' stuff going on but i think with different connotations. In male fantasies, those two things, "recognising each other as equals" and "knowing that someone has your back" are hugely important, and my impression is that there's less of a convention of these things on the other side?]


Anyway, just some thoughts from a different perspective maybe.


Kelly Warwick wrote: "Excellent essay. Not really qualified to comment, but just one tangential point that occurred to me, reading that, is that the irritating ways in which female protagonists are so often made "relata..."

Thank you Warwick and you know, maybe you're right. Maybe I've just run across a streak of bad authors, but I really think the stuff I'm describing is a poison that infects a lot of the genre, even often with books I otherwise enjoy and find clever.

I agree with you about the anachronistic Cher Horowitzes in 18th century England. It seems like authors who do that mostly want to play dress up. I've read a lot of historical romances like this- the cheapest way to get your audience to like the heroine is to have her be a very unlikely feminist, or have your hero be totally right that Napoleon is coming back even if nobody else thought so (they totally can predict the future with the knowledge given to them by their future authors, so hot!), or to have them favor newfangled medical procedures that show their good instincts and enlightened mind. One time, I read a book where a character honest to goodness had indoor plumbing installed a good two centuries before that was a thing and went into a lot of detail about it because she couldn't seem to bear the idea of outhouses at her pretty costume party.

But that is a different kind of annoying. At least there it is obviously total disney princess indulgence that anyone can spot- the stuff I'm talking about is way more insidious. Stuff that we're trained to think or accept without thinking about it.


message 9: by Kelly (last edited Jul 08, 2015 07:47PM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Kelly Wastrel wrote: "Jocular response [wait, when did I become an Elcor? oh never mind]: clearly, this just shows the liberating triumph of new publishing. Now Cordelia Chase can be a novelist!

More seriously, as a gu..."


Computer ate my comment, but here's the gist of what I originally wrote:

1. I think "dominance fantasy" is a pretty accurate term. I do not think that it is an accident that in both the majority of romance novels I have read as well as fantasy novels (I am a big time fantasy genre reader)- the sex tends to have strong S&M overtones, usually in a very traditional male dom/female sub way. And of course the 19th century English virgin who knows nothing of sex quickly finds she's into kinky sex immediately. Because that's how that goes. From the female side of it, in romance novels it often seems to again, be trying to prove something to a man who is not in the room- again, these books are being written largely for women. It's all "Oooh look how freaky and sexy I can be in true love and marriage!!"- like we somehow have to convince men that marriage can be sexy, like again, we're having an argument with someone who isn't in the room. It's so Madonna/whore, and buying into that complex in a terrible way. Most men who are worth the time of day already know that marriage can be sexy- why are we still fighting this fifty year old and more battle? It's so outdated. I'm just so upset with it.

2. I would agree that fantasy novels also often promote a toxic vision of masculinity- although I think that's probably fallen off in recent years. I've seen way more author stand in fantasies of dudes who are super smart and funny and peaceable than muscular heroes lately. But for those older fantasies I read growing up, sure, that was still around and might I add just as toxic to female fantasy readers- also largely adolescent- like... this is what I'm supposed to fantasize about, apparently?

But I don't think it quite matches the sort of self-colonizing thing that I'm talking about here. The way that the characters in these books and the authors who write them take an image that has been presented to them by men and internalize it in such a self-damaging way, turning it on each other- oftentimes subconsciously, out of the self-hatred and self-doubt they've learned to imbibe ever since they were old enough to know there was a difference between boys and girls. I can't tell you how many books I've read where the heroine has to be shy and/or hate herself (while obviously still being superior to any other female in the pages, but she can never say that or know that- definitely not in the presence of the hero) and come up with every misunderstanding possible to avoid believing the hero loves her- because we need to apparently see how damaged she is in order to relate to her and allow her to be rewarded with the hero/happy ending. It's this inwardly turned nasty thing that I just can't quite get over.

Why does a woman have to be damaged, or believe she is the worst, in order to deserve love? Why do we torture ourselves, even in our fantasies? It's often not in a a like "ooh we must overcome obstacles and go on a quest" way either- unless the woman is tagging along with a man doing that. It is self-inflicted torture. It's realistic, I suppose, maybe? But why buy into this? It's so ugly to watch.


Kelly Oh right! And two other points I'd wanted to add:

1. I don't believe it is true that most authors are women. There are more than there used to be, but I am confident they are not the majority- particularly not in fantasy. Also, I think that female dominance story lines of the toxic kind I'm talking about here also usually have A Thing to overcome, though it may often by smaller scale. Sometimes not though- Divergent is a good example of that.

2. Also, the inward looking trend you see more in these more heavily "female" stories is a legacy of a time when women's (well, white privileged women who are the only ones getting the opportunity to do some writing) worlds were confined. There are good reasons for that. And I've read many an awesome novel in a very small world- male or female. So be aware of that too.


Kelly Oh and to your last point, in these toxic types of stories I'm talking about the heroine will always have a best female friend. Usually only one. We will like her, but she will be clearly inferior to the heroine in some way. She needs to prove she's not like those mean girl blond bitches- even though sometimes she obviously totally is. The best friend is basically more moral superiority currency so we can see her being nice to a woman- again, as long as we are clear there is something wrong with her.

Which is yet another colonizing trope- the idea of a woman as a source or moral virtue, that being their highest purpose.


message 12: by Kamakana (new)

Kamakana so i guess this is not a book recommended for... anyone? it does not immediately attract my interest, but your critical essay is great- i have read a few books but not much 'romance'- for some reason i favour those 'romances' that 'fail', eg. Gatsby, that are embedded and not obviously central eg. Remains of the Day... i can often like pulp pop culture romances eg. Now, Voyager, but have no luck with ur-texts like Jayne whatshername or that Whatering Heights... why, i do not know. i am told by women in my life that i am 'romantic', directed to read certain books, yet to have the judgement reversed, but do not really often search out such books. i too read a lot of fantasy but not usually the 'mundane fantasy' with medieval weaponry, politics, wars, dragons, and so on, any you rec would be appreciated, i will obviously not read this but what do you rec exactly the opposite?


message 13: by Samadrita (new)

Samadrita Ah I loved this rant. It is precisely because women are portrayed as their own worst enemies/critics in typical romance novels and generally imbibe these value judgments in real life, that 'sisterhood' has become a foundation stone of feminism. You mentioned Tana French in this connection so I'm going to assume you liked her The Secret Place. Didn't that feel like a purposeful exaltation of the idea of sisterhood? The teenage girls form a bond stronger than anything else, ward off all outside influences which try to challenge their solidarity and do not even surrender to their budding sexuality or care about adhering to some contrived notion of femininity. I think most young girls should be encouraged to read that one instead of the garbage that pass off as best-sellers just so they are not initiated into the cult of slut-shaming and body-shaming early on. Also seriously why won't women authors write more stuff like French does?

P.S.:-I wonder if you are watching the Gillian Anderson-Jamie Dornan starrer 'The Fall'? It's a flagrantly feminist show but sacrifices dramatic subtlety at times in an effort to proselytize on issues like slut-shaming, sexism and so on. I am curious to know what you may think of it.


Kelly Samadrita wrote: "Ah I loved this rant. It is precisely because women are portrayed as their own worst enemies/critics in typical romance novels and generally imbibe these value judgments in real life, that 'sisterh..."

I really liked The Secret Place- I did not love it as much as the other books she wrote because it didn't reach quite as deep, I thought and a few other flaws, but I agree about the sisterhood aspect. That part was very affecting. Although it's ultimately scary, of course, I think that it would be much more interesting for girls to discuss that than all these clique books and these female status anxiety books that just tell them what they're supposed to want to look like or be like or have- permanent aspiration. Capitalistic but with a particularly feminine self-hating inflection- that's the part that really gets me. So toxic.

I haven't seen the show, but it has been on my list forever. I'll check it out.


Kelly the gift wrote: "so i guess this is not a book recommended for... anyone? it does not immediately attract my interest, but your critical essay is great- i have read a few books but not much 'romance'- for some reas..."

So I should state right out that this rant isn't directed so much at this book as it is books of the type that this happens to fall into. This is not, also, a romance novel. It is a book that has a relationship in it between a husband and wife, it just happens to share characteristics and DNA with a lot of romance novels- lots of assumptions are shared.

I'm not sure what kind of fantasy you're referring to- what's "not mundane" fantasy? I'm curious what types you do read.

I'm also not sure what you mean about "the opposite of this"? Do you mean a "good" version of this sort of psychological thriller? Read Sharp Objects by Gillian Flynn or any of Tana French's Dublin Murder Squad Book (I suspect you would most enjoy #3- Faithful Place). Girl on a Train was also pretty good, a best seller that deserves to be so.


message 16: by Mir (new)

Mir I tend to find the male fantasies more interesting. For two reasons: because I just find a badass fight more engaging than a bitchy put-down (in most cases - Malcom Tucker and Edmund Blackadder being exceptions); but also because male fantasies so often revolve around defending our womenfolk from A Threat, and putting A Threat into the story lets something interesting and external break into the world of the hierarchy - whereas what I dislike most when I encounter the 'feminine' equivalent is that it can very easily become enclosed, self-absorbed, and disconnected from the outside.

I think a lot of that is just reality. Until fairly recently women didn't have a lot of opportunities for exciting action. They were either busy with not-interesting-to-read-about domestic labor or -- not. And if not most women didn't have fulfilling activities to fill up their days which I'm sure contributed to the pettiness and back-biting and pointless competition and judging and social jostling. And a lot of literature aimed at women doesn't seem to have moved past the measure of success that equates to idle wealth.


message 17: by Linda (new)

Linda Oh man the "I'm not like the other girls" girl is the WORST, especially when it comes with a set of perceived value judgements of the "other girls" who, by the way are all superficial sluts who aren't "classy" like the protagonist is. (There's also a whole other conversation to be had about the classist connotations of the word "classy" too.)

Honestly, "shy girl fantasy" is pretty spot on, I generally feel that these kinds of characters are more of a reflection of the author's own toxic ideas about other women than anything else. It makes me angry since it just further perpetuates these attitudes in readers—especially when it's a younger girl reading YA or romance or something.


message 18: by Taylor (new)

Taylor Haha, oh man. I have had so much beef with the woman-on-woman aggression and the female archetypes in any number of genres/books marketed to women, and it's upsetting because it makes me so reluctant to read the books and genres marketed towards us, which is then upsetting because that's where so many women writers get put.

I just read Valley of the Dolls in Maine and tore through it, and while I couldn't put it down, it also left me feeling a bit depressed about how the relationships between the three women were portrayed - though I think it's also part commentary about that very fact. Still, it was a wildly successful book and I often wonder how many people are just doing a surface read of that kind of thing.

I haven't read Flynn's other books, though I'd like to, but even Gone Girl has the "Cool Girl" diatribe, which I've seen quoted (out of context) over and over and over and over again, and for that reason has kind of soured a book I otherwise liked. It made sense in the context of the book, but now I see other women - mostly critics and pop-culture writers/journalists - using it to tear down other women and to mock the "tomboy" types of women or women characters. I swear, it's set back women's view of other women who aren't traditionally feminine, or don't partake in traditionally feminine things, and that's not helpful. Anyway. I know I've ranted about that before. Still, I thought Amy was an amazing character otherwise, and I loved that she didn't do the whole self-tear-down shit, as you mention.

Likewise, I found Ferrante truly incredible at writing women, which is why I enjoyed Days of Abandonment so much - Olga is one of the best characters I've read in recent years.

Basically, this was the long way of saying that I really liked your write-up of this.


Kelly Thanks, Tay. I am not surprised at all that you agree with me about this. I totally agree with your sentiment about how it sucks that we have to be wary about women marketed books!! Like, we're heading into a potential psychological torture zone every single time, which sounds dramatic but is actually true. Reading these books can be so seductive- you can find yourself agreeing with poisonous stuff for no other reason than the book wants you to and societal impulses condition you to do so. It took me YEARS to catch on to some of the more insidious beneath the surface code-word girl hate stuff going on. If I ever have a daughter, I want to have a book club with her whenever she is old enough to start reading this stuff just so she doesn't think some of the stuff I did, unchallenged, for years.

About Amy, the aspect of her I found most challenging was her performative femininity and how deep her rage was over it- like it was so well done that the first thing she did with herself so people wouldn't recognize her was to get fat. I agree the Cool Girl thing has been taken out of context, but in context, it's everything I'm talking about here. But how telling is it that we use even a cry of rage against locking ourselves into the male gaze and turn it against each other to score points with dudes?? Ugh. The sheer desperation that has to be behind that makes me sad.

Would you recommend I read Valley of the Dolls then?


Kelly And @Linda, thank you. I am also so over "not like the other girls" girl. You know, the girl who just "gets along better with guys." Other than the obvious inse use play for the social status and validation points that male attention grants female characters in our fucked up rating system that that represents, it also implies that having a lot of female friends means that you are shallow as a person, because female friendship is worth less than male friendship.

Fuuuuuuuuuck that noise so much.

And @Tay- that was another reason I loved Ferrante too- not only does she let women be human beings, she shows how much more, in reality, our friendships and relationships with women shape us.


message 21: by Taylor (new)

Taylor Kelly wrote: "About Amy, the aspect of her I found most challenging was her performative femininity and how deep her rage was over it- like it was so well done that the first thing she did with herself so people wouldn't recognize her was to get fat. I agree the Cool Girl thing has been taken out of context, but in context, it's everything I'm talking about here. But how telling is it that we use even a cry of rage against locking ourselves into the male gaze and turn it against each other to score points with dudes?? Ugh. The sheer desperation that has to be behind that makes me sad.

Would you recommend I read Valley of the Dolls then? "


Totally! And that's why the "Cool Girl" thing was so effective in context - she's railing women who say they like sports and cheese fries, but acknowledges she kept herself particularly thin for Nick. She's dismissing one form of appealing to men while she does another - but acknowledging it all the while. But when you take it out of that, you miss half of the entire vision.

Valley of the Dolls was a fun reading experience (perfect for the beach!), but came with a bit of a hangover. I'll write about it at some point this week probably!


Kelly Yeah it was so interesting to me because I read an interview with Amber Heard this weekend, that girl that Johnny Depp married? And she kept talking about wanting to break out of the "Barbie box" she's in and get better roles- but acknowledged she wouldn't be where she was without it (including married to Johnny Depp I assume) but also... she is not taking the opportunity to change her looks or anything else about herself that would change people's perception of her. Like, she didn't want to lose the currency and approval that came with Barbie but also wanted to have the total opposite at once, like she wouldn't lose her power if she did. It reminded me of Amy and made me sad again- like even if you succeed in one mold of femininity, all we do is then want some other form of perfection. And the getting boxed into something you hate just because it works.

Women are the worst self torturers.

I look forward to the Valley of the Dolls review!


message 23: by Taylor (new)

Taylor Kelly wrote: "Yeah it was so interesting to me because I read an interview with Amber Heard this weekend, that girl that Johnny Depp married? And she kept talking about wanting to break out of the "Barbie box" she's in and get better roles- but acknowledged she wouldn't be where she was without it (including married to Johnny Depp I assume) but also... she is not taking the opportunity to change her looks or anything else about herself that would change people's perception of her. Like, she didn't want to lose the currency and approval that came with Barbie but also wanted to have the total opposite at once, like she wouldn't lose her power if she did. It reminded me of Amy and made me sad again- like even if you succeed in one mold of femininity, all we do is then want some other form of perfection. And the getting boxed into something you hate just because it works.

Women are the worst self torturers.

I look forward to the Valley of the Dolls review!"


Oh interesting! I didn't know they were married. I just saw her in Magic Mike XXL, haha. Which was amazing, btw. She was also in a film adaptation of The River Why, which I saw because the guy who plays Saracen was in it :-x Definitely seems like she hasn't really been given any decent roles, though. Her part in MMXXL is pretty small, and the movies where it seems like she's had bigger parts haven't been that successful. Valley of the Dolls did have some pretty amazing points re: Hollywood and what it does to women, which doesn't seem like it's changed much.


Kelly Speaking of FNL, what do you think about Riggins on True Detective? I need to catch up but I want him to be good!


message 25: by Taylor (new)

Taylor Kelly wrote: "Speaking of FNL, what do you think about Riggins on True Detective? I need to catch up but I want him to be good!"

Oh man, well, episodes three and four have given him much more to work with, and I think he's been great.


Kelly Excellent! That's what I wanted to hear.


message 27: by Mir (new)

Mir Kelly wrote: " And she kept talking about wanting to break out of the "Barbie box" she's in and get better roles- but acknowledged she wouldn't be where she was without it (including married to Johnny Depp I assume) but also... she is not taking the opportunity to change her looks or anything else about herself that would change people's perception of her."

On the other hand, why should she have to change her looks to be taken more seriously?


message 28: by Wastrel (new)

Wastrel Miriam wrote: " I tend to find the male fantasies more interesting. For two reasons: because I just find a badass fight more engaging than a bitchy put-down (in most cases - Malcom Tucker and Edmund Blackadder be..."

Oh, I certainly wasn't assuming the self-absorption was a inherently feminine trait - I generally assume that almost all differences between the sexes are economic in origin.

Then again, I should point out that the "until recently women didn't do anything but domestic labour, or else nothing at all" image of history is actually something that betrays the class-based bias of our history (and perhaps the upper class origins of many pioneering women writers in the 19th and 20th century). Because the 19th century did work hard to create this isolated, insulated little bubble for women to live in, where they never had to get their hands dirty and if they did it was in wholesome labours-of-love for their family... but only really for the upper classes, and the aspiring middle classes. Among the working class, there has always been a high rate of participation in the labour force among women, particularly young women - these families just didn't have enough money to keep their daughters and wives in the kitchen. Outside the top third of society (the middle and upper classes), most Victorian women had paid jobs, often industrial - it's part of why poor Victorian households very often had grandparents living with their children, to look after their grandchildren while the wife of the family was at work. [Indeed, this is one reason why the obedient wife at home became such a symbol of aspiration, as it was a clear indicator of wealth - and for women, too, it was widely seen as an improvement, since given a choice most of them preferred to look after their kids and keep their house less of a slum-hovel than it was, rather than do dangerous work for low pay at the local textile factory or the like. (Women were usually paid less in the 19th century - women and immigrants were used to undercut the wages of male workers, who were unionised and often anti-technology; laws passed to restrict the hours women could work were at the time seen as helping to push up their wages and prevent inhumane treatment by employers - these laws, which restricted the ability of women to work, and which legally classed women alongside children in terms of employment law, were actually the result of agitation by feminist campaigners of the day)] - in some cities, at some times, female participation in the workforce was actually higher than male.

So when we think of historical women either slaving over a hot stove or sitting around in her drawing room bored stiff with nothing to do but gossip over high tea with her 'friends' - those are true images, but to a large extent they are really only images of the rich, and overlook the millions of women who were out in the world in the exactly the same conditions as their brothers - only usually paid less, mistreated more and in much more precarious situations...

[Historically, indeed, Victorian female work was not the exception, or rather it was only the exception in that there was less of it than in previous years. Women in early modern societies were even more integral to the marketplace - the flight of women from paid employment as they become more affluent took several centuries, peaking at some point in the early 20th century before gradually reversing]


message 29: by Mir (new)

Mir Wastrel wrote: "Among the working class, there has always been a high rate of participation in the labour force among women"

Oh, sure, but that's not popular subject matter for fantasies, male or female.


message 30: by Zanna (new)

Zanna Agree with Samadrita about sisterhood or solidarity generally being a feminist cornerstone. People keep asking why feminism has 'failed' or why we are still struggling and my answer is always 'capitalism' or white supremacist capitalist heteropatriarchy. The way feminisms are repackaged to be dismissed or to avoid actual radicalism reveals that they are basically doomed to become the master's tools without an intersectional anticapitalist foundation. Never forget, domination strategies divide and rule, so unite and rise up! ;-)


Kelly I agree that there's a lot of division on display in this book, and it is very upsetting. Particularly for how subliminal some of it seems. Ugh.


message 32: by Zanna (new)

Zanna Yeah that makes me want to scream, when women tell us that patriarchy is right about us


message 33: by Mir (new)

Mir Yeah, a friend was just talking about that here: /user_status...


message 34: by Zanna (new)

Zanna Reminds me of nineties 'ladette' culture, very misogynist


message 35: by Mir (new)

Mir Ugh, that -ette suffix, hate it.


Kelly Wow, that was an education. I definitely did not know about some of these subcultures- before my time of cultural awareness. Interesting thread, too, Miriam!


Barbara I don't normally read "chick" books but this one had such a glowing recommendation somewhere and was touted as more of a thriller so I read it. I liked the story despite knowing pretty much where everything was going but there was this stupid writing quirk that just about drove me up the wall. Every time the writer refered to her MC in a sentence she had remind us of her name. Like (just making something up) "Bob handed the letter to her, Hannah." Like we're too stupid to know that the man standing there talking to her, Hannah, is handing the letter to the same her, Hannah, that he's speaking to. If I ever see "she, Hannah," or "her, Hannah," in another book it's going in the bin. Did this make anyone else insane?


message 38: by Mir (new)

Mir Maybe you, Barbara, should give the book to Hannah, and see if she, Hannah, enjoys it more than you, Barbara, did.

(sorry, sorry!)


message 39: by [deleted user] (new)

what...are you going on about?


Barbara Miriam wrote: "Maybe you, Barbara, should give the book to Hannah, and see if she, Hannah, enjoys it more than you, Barbara, did.

(sorry, sorry!)"


You, Miriam, are a smart ass.

I like that in a person.


message 41: by Mir (new)

Mir I'm glad someone other than I myself appreciates that about me.


message 42: by Wastrel (new)

Wastrel Barbara wrote: "I don't normally read "chick" books but this one had such a glowing recommendation somewhere and was touted as more of a thriller so I read it. I liked the story despite knowing pretty much where e..."

That does sound like an extreme reaction to not being able to make her characters sufficiently distinctive in their own right... to be fair, though, I find myself noticing that to a lesser extent all the time, particularly in dialogue. Why do people keep mentioning the name of the person they're talking to!? "Barbara, Miriam would like you to give the book to Hannah!"... in real life, Barbara, you never normally have to say somebody's name, because the fact that they're looking at you while they're speaking shows, Barbara, that it's you they're speaking to. Often, Barbara, I find this novelistic habit of namedropping just makes it seem like everybody is being covertly passive-aggressive to one another...

[Come to think of it, outside of the context of people having to get my attention across a crowded room, it's probably rare for me to actually hear my name more than once or twice a year...]


message 43: by Mir (new)

Mir Wastrel wrote: "I find this novelistic habit of namedropping just makes it seem like everybody is being covertly passive-aggressive to one another..."

Given Kelly's description of the antagonistic female relationships in the novel, that also seems possible. Now that you mention it, I don't often see authors reflecting the speech patterns that people really use in that sort of edged conversation; they're much more likely to describe tone of voice.

[Come to think of it, outside of the context of people having to get my attention across a crowded room, it's probably rare for me to actually hear my name more than once or twice a year...

Indeed. I usually hear it from my parents, and half the time they really meant my sister, anyway.


message 44: by Wastrel (new)

Wastrel Miriam wrote: "Wastrel wrote: "I find this novelistic habit of namedropping just makes it seem like everybody is being covertly passive-aggressive to one another..."

Given Kelly's description of the antagonistic..."


When my parents say my name, they never mean my sister.
They do, however, often mean me when they say my sister's name...
Come to think of it, in some subliminally Psychological way that may Explain A Lot...


message 45: by Mir (new)

Mir Ha! My brother, sister, and I and the dogs have always gotten our names thrown about any which way.


Diane Dachota I feel your points are very valid, although I don't think they pertain all that much to this book. I didn't particularly like this one, but it didn't have many of the things you mentioned about female heroine's. In my opinion, of course.


Kelly So our opinions differ, which is how it goes with literature very often!


message 48: by Bug (new)

Bug ((Commenting as someone assigned female at birth))

I think all this is very much the same as the 'I'm not like most girls' memes that are popular with teen girls lately. I think its popular to have a female protagonist hate women and posit herself over women for 'not being like those other women' because lots of women feel that way, or feel like they have to feel that way. but secretly?

Like I dont think a lot of adult women would pull the whole 'I'm not like most women' thing in real life but it feels good to be better than someone ((especially when facing misogyny. Being able to apply misogyny to OTHER women and claim superiority so you dont 'deserve' misogyny like they do would be a relief, especially if you have a lot of internalized misogyny)).


message 49: by Mir (last edited Aug 31, 2019 10:50AM) (new)

Mir James wrote: "((Commenting as someone assigned female at birth))

I think all this is very much the same as the 'I'm not like most girls' memes that are popular with teen girls lately. I think its popular to ha..."


I don't know what's popular with teen girls, but I think your general point seems to make sense psychologically, especially the "internalized misogyny" part.

[Edited to add: Funny little coincidence. I considered adding this example of one college friend I had who was very smart, ambitious, athletic, etc but wasn't a feminist and thought traditional roles were fine for most women, her achievements were because somehow she was better because she was like a man... Anyway, I clicked your profile, James, and she was from your town.]


Kelly I totally agree this is at least in part about internalized misogyny, for sure. Because it’s all about being the most appealing to men in the end (but not trying to! just being blessed with it naturally! because that’s part of the appeal). I do think that tangled in there though is the fighting for a finite slice of pie idea that’s so central to this particular stage of capitalism. The fear is getting worse, not better, so this becomes a way to escape it/win that game too. Miriam- that friend! Ugh! But it’s so real...


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