ŷ������

Sold it months ago with no regrets whatsoever. Me and Frank Miller gel only when it comes to selling his comics to the neverending stream of people willing to shell money for his name, nothing else. I don't see reasons to read him if already I don't like the 30's-40's noir movies from which he took the writing (Baby Face, Blonde Ice, Scarface, Red-Headed Woman, etc. etc. etc.). Americans at the time were great at making comics, not movies.

I don't own this one. I think I'd rather own all of the Brubaker/Philips runs of their noir stuff at the moment.

Anne wrote: “…because all i'm seeing are just a lot of goddamn nipples all over the place.��

Miller was an equal opportunity nipple-ist.

Behold, the male nipple! (The first nipple in the book.)



I think the next time that I read The Hard Goodbye, I will take a tally of the use of ‘bastard�� vs the depiction of the nipple (all genders). 🤔

��But the art is the star here.��

Amen.

A far cry from Miller’s oatmeal days in TDKR.

The inking is simply incredible.

Very macabre, too.

(view spoiler)[

Kevin didn’t eat everything��



Finger foods��

”He made me watch!!!��



Even the infamous electric chair��



I love that panel. (hide spoiler)]

Frank Miller’s art is always much better than his writing.

BTW, if you want to see from where the scene where Nancy dances in the bar probably came for, I suggest you to check out if you haven't the 1933 movie Baby Face, it's not a movie I personally like or find interesting and not just because the writing is the same Frank Miller employs but when I saw the starting scene with the lady in the bar dancing I thought of this comic and of Nancy dancing. On the pencils you're right, that's what Miller should have done, to stick to pencils, As a penciler he was quite good, as a writer the internet already knows my idea of him at large. He replicated 30's-40's ways of writing when it wasn't possible to use them anymore (meaning 40-50 years after) and he was acclaimed as a genius for reasons completely unknown to me. If you'll ever watch the movies I mentioned, you'll see his writing through and through, but there's nothing genious in employing a writing from movies made in the 30's 50 years after they were produced and not in their proper time. Like I can love all I want the indiana jones trilogy because it looks like a collection of Pulps made in the 30's or like Ultraman Tiga in particular for its last quarter even if the majority of the series is written like the Showa Ultraman were, but I don't call those products of genius. I call that good and enjoyable stuff for fans of 30's comics and Showa Ultraman like Ultraseven as homages to said periods, but there's nothing of genius there.

And yes, I actually call people of who I'm a total fanboy writing in the 30's and 40's geniuses myself, but I call them in the context of the period, in regards to the fact that the writing FOR THE PERIOD was advanced in comparison to the competition they had and in regards to the relevance of their ideas and how they expressed those ideas through their comics. Not because I want their writing repeated now, nobody writes like them anymore and it is normal, otherwise there would be no sense in reading comics from different eras expecting different writing techniques. It would like to call genius a person writing today in gereoglyphs instead of plain english italian or whatever, a mummy would do that and mummies are good in a museum but not much else.

Peter wrote: "Frank Miller’s art is always much better than his writing."

In this one most definitely. I still couldn't give this 5 stars because the dialogue doesn't hit the mark for something I'd want to re-read over again.

TDKR's art wasn't great. <--that's only my opinion
I know a lot of people love it but a lot of the faces just look lumpy and craggy.

Dave wrote: "Anne wrote: “…because all i'm seeing are just a lot of goddamn nipples all over the place.��

Miller was an equal opportunity nipple-ist.

Behold, the male nipple! (The first nipple in the book.)


..."

Nipples! Nipples everywhere!

Your_Average_Magical_Girls_Fan wrote: "And yes, I actually call people of who I'm a total fanboy writing in the 30's and 40's geniuses myself, but I call them in the context of the period, in regards to the fact that the writing FOR THE..."

It's just going to depend on what you like. But I get what you're saying about genius being genius for the time.
I like this sort of noir-y, hardboiled dick, criminal underground kind of stuff that isn't exactly...right? <--for the times, I guess?

You mean Batman without the restrictions of writing Batman? because Marv is simply the Frank Miller Batman from TDKR without the restriction imposed by the IP, and not much else. Anyway, I can't recommend enough if you ever come across those movies (Blonde Ice is available for free on youtube, of all things) to watch them and then make your own mind if a writing taken 1:1 from those artifacts was adequate when Frank Miller wrote both Batman and the Sin City comics. That writing and its flaws were adequate for movies that started and ended in one hour maximum due to the cinema limitations of the period and nobody cared of seeing a person doing one thing and in a few minutes its complete opposite without any resolution inbetween, to think you can use that writing not just for mainstream superhero comics after the Silver Age and its one-issue policy ended but also to make an entire, coherent superhero universe like the Sin City one is totally ludicrous. Simply impossible to do it in the modern era, when the reader's eye is trained to see faults and flaws or plot holes/contrivance in the bigger picture of a streamlined continuity because that's the way modern superhero comics are written, with a stricter continuity than that in older ages (even if, truth to be told, older ages actually had a continuity but it was more flexible). I sincerely have no idea how the Sin City experiment got successful in the first place as a concept, TBH.

Your_Average_Magical_Girls_Fan wrote: " I sincerely have no idea how the Sin City experiment got successful in the first place as a concept, TBH."

I think it made such a splash back in the day because it was very bleak and violent. And the art is really exceptional in spots. Not all of it, but there are some good panels.

I can definitely understand the dislike, though. And I'll see if I can find Blonde Ice.

Anne wrote: "Nipples! Nipples everywhere!"

About 16 billion nipples in the world as of last November (not counting people with extra nipples or people missing a nipple or who have had a nipple removed). More nipples than belly buttons.

Fun Facts: There are 110 trillion mosquitoes in the world��

110,000,000,000,000 mosquitoes��

Mosquitoes do not have nipples.

Mosquitoes also do not read comics with nipples.

Mosquitoes are largely black-and-white with splashes of red when squashed.

🦟🦟🦟

If you can tie mosquitos to Kevin Bacon, I'll be extra impressed.

That's...

Well done, sir!

Never been a fan of frank miller , always thought his art and writing was awful and way overrated

This is the only thing I've seen of his that I get the hype. There are some panels that really knocked it out of the park in this one, though.
Have you read any of his recent stuff? Ho-ly shit. So bad. So, so bad.
He did something with Superman that was so terrible it was almost good. Not quite so-bad-it's-good as Batman: Odyssey but close.

I love Marv. He and Hannigan are my favorite of Miller’s “heroes�� (if they can be called that). I’ve been a big fan of his artwork since college. I think his art is something people get or they don’t. I agree with you on his ventures into Batman, but I do really love The 300. The artwork is really well done.

Anne wrote: "Not quite so-bad-it's-good as Batman: Odyssey but close."

Just finished reading your review of Batman: Odyssey.

Wow!

I’m impressed.

By both your wit and Neal Adams�� panache. Your review indicates that one of you is most definitely more lucid than the other.

How did I miss this gem of a review?

I think Spurrier took over from Neal Adams.

(And, by the way, if you don’t like hairy men, then Tolkien’s elves, despite their penchant for song, are hairless. Like chia pets…without the chia.)

Anne wrote: "TDKR's art wasn't great. <--that's only my opinion
I know a lot of people love it but a lot of the faces just look lumpy and craggy."

THANK YOU. It's grown on me a lot, but I still don't know if I can even say it's good. It has panels that are less ugly than others, and that's really all I can say. That cover with Batman jumping against the backdrop of a stormy night is ICONIC, though. It's been my wallpaper for the past year or so.

I vastly prefer Miller's artwork here and in Daredevil.


Pretty sure I've sent this exact image before, but I love this page so much. The writing is more the focus but even the art here is legendary. Recently learned it takes massive inspiration from Bernard Krigstein.


I love how much I can learn about comics every day while still having so much to learn.

Your_Average_Magical_Girls_Fan wrote: "You mean Batman without the restrictions of writing Batman? because Marv is simply the Frank Miller Batman from TDKR without the restriction imposed by the IP, and not much else."

Everyone talks about how much Miller hates Superman, but I feel like he hates the true Batman nearly as much. Other than Year One, which I can't believe is a Miller comic, he is a TERRIBLE Batman writer. His Batman is heartless, sadistic, and insane.

TDKR is a much better portrayal of Batman, in large part due to the way it explores his psyche but keeps him as a likable and caring character. He's still mostly himself.

Still, it seems somewhat accidental that he writes a mostly proper Batman. If you pay attention you can see that there wasn't some big shift in his understanding of Batman. The Batman that appears in Strikes Again and All-Star is the Batman that he's always been trying to write. It's possible he was only staying in bounds to get fame and, in return, enough leeway to write his twisted and out-of-character Batman.

You can see it a bit in TDKR and you can see it even more in Marv.

I say all this as a pretty big Miller fan. I'm also just a huge Miller hater.

In mine and other people's opinion, the reality is that Miller never wanted to write Superhero comics. He wanted to write 30's-40's noir stuff first and foremost and of the Superheroes he never cared one bit, not just Superman and Batman but all of them. I don't have the slightest idea how he got in touch with the superhero industry to begin with, maybe he tried to write some noir book when he was very young and he realized he wasn't that good to begin with as a prose writer, who knows. I'm not telling it as a spregiative, Gardner Fox was a failed novelist and he entered into the comic book world because he couldn't write well books, so it's a possibility. Hell, the founder of one of the main publishers in italy (that as of now, very few people care about), Sergio Bonelli, decided to get into comics because he was a failed novelist, he tried to write books but he wasn't good at all. What I'm writing is NOT the hard truth, it's a speculation of mine made on the moment. That said, the one who introduced him to the Batman mythos was Dennis O'Neil, I don't know why he did it. Maybe he hated so much the aliens and the stuff from the 60's (including the shat on for reasons unknown to me Adam West show) that he thought only a person with an hatred for Batman could extirpate that "shame" once and for all.

cloverina wrote: "THANK YOU. It's grown on me a lot, but I still don't know if I can even say it's good. It has panels that are less ugly than others, and that's really all I can say. That cover with Batman jumping against the backdrop of a stormy night is ICONIC, though. It's been my wallpaper for the past year or so."

Great choice of wallpaper.

My favourite panel from TDKR…phenomenal inking and colouring…and the page was incredibly symbolic of what was actually happening in the U.S. at the time. I loved to hear Reagan speak, but I hated his politics��.especially international policy.

(view spoiler)[
(hide spoiler)]

Most of the splash pages in TDKR (and Sin City) are great.

I understand the criticisms of Miller’s artwork. I also understand the criticisms against his exposition (“talking heads��) in what should be a mostly visual medium.

���ܳ���

My favourite Batman origin depiction ever is in TDKR. The lines, the inks, the colouring…and very few words…graphic storytelling at its finest��

(view spoiler)[




(hide spoiler)]

Whether you loathe or love Miller (and remember…at the time of TDKR’s first printing…there was no “Miller”…the title was more important than the relatively unknown creator), that is POWERFUL and EMOTIONAL storytelling…with almost no words. The broken pearl string became iconic.

Daredevil, Elektra and Ronin were all solid.

Somewhere (after 300…or maybe before) Miller lost his way. Perhaps he believed the hype about himself and that he could do no wrong. Perhaps 09/11 (tomorrow 😔) messed with him more than most of us. But he went from being a beloved writer to a bargain bin writer for me.

cloverina wrote: "Everyone talks about how much Miller hates Superman, but I feel like he hates the true Batman nearly as much. Other than Year One, which I can't believe is a Miller comic, he is a TERRIBLE Batman writer. His Batman is heartless, sadistic, and insane."

I hate Superman.

But that may be largely due to Miller’s influence on my impressionable teenage mind.

(Tom King somewhat rescued Superman for me in Superman: Up in the Sky).

Superman became the superhero embodiment of fascism for me.

I’m not sure how else we would expect a person to be who dedicated their entire life and their substantial resources to vengeance/Justice (and those aren’t necessarily the same). That is what has always intrigued me about Batman. How does he avoid becoming “heartless, sadistic and insane��? His presence is built on the emotion of fear.

I remember reading TDKR in Portugese at one of my favourite sequences��

(view spoiler)[
(hide spoiler)]

��The other…HURTS.�� was translated as ��O outro…ALEIJA.��

“Aleija�� roughly means “to cripple��, but the connotation is much stronger than “cripple��. A more powerful version of “cripples�� replaces “hurts��.

Reading that in Portugese gave me shivers. Batman was lethal. Dangerous. In a way that he had never been before TDKR. Not just capable of “beating�� the “bad�� guy, but also of punishing them. Severely.

But I don’t know if Miller’s Batman was sadistic. Capable of great violence, yes. But he typically restrained himself. And he was very selective with his targets for inflicting pain. Even Miller’s Batman never “started�� it.

If someone wanted to be a fool then they got to play in Batman’s world.

Marv was similar. Not a good person. Capable of brutal violence. But despite his physical gifts and ability to turn off his conscience, he spent most of that first volume trying to right a wrong. Marv is not exactly sympathetic (and he admits that to the reader), but he does have a moral code. Much better than the codes espoused by characters who represented religion and wealth.

Later, as mentioned, Miller lost himself. I think he wanted to punish an unjust and immoral world (figuratively…not literally with his sub-par storytelling).

Dave wrote: "Anne wrote: "Not quite so-bad-it's-good as Batman: Odyssey but close."

Just finished reading your review of Batman: Odyssey.

Wow!

I’m impressed.

By both your wit and Neal Adams�� panache. Your r..."

I actually BOUGHT a copy of Batman: Odyssey because it's so batshit crazy. You'll never find anything like that again. You should look that one up on DC Infinite and give it a gander, my good friend. The art is amazing and the story is...WOW.

Anne wrote: "I hate Superman.

But that may be largely due to Miller’s influence on my impressionable teenage mind.

(Tom King somewhat rescued Superman for me in Superman: Up in the Sky)."

Ok, I now have a singular mission in life, and that mission is to make Dave read good Superman stories.
I'm not talking about iconic stuff, but actual good stories. Date Night from King was a good one and I think you liked that.

Superman: American Alien & Superman: Brainiac are both so gooooood. I think they hit the heart of the character and why so many people love him.

Anne wrote: "Ok, I now have a singular mission in life, and that mission is to make Dave read good Superman stories."

I’ll read most anything (except Stephanie Meyer 🤮…and “naughty�� romances…although I even read a couple of those because my Wife asked nicely and really, really wanted to share), but that doesn’t mean I’ll like Superman.

If Aquaman and Martian Manhunter (what a name…what a name) successfully mated, thine offspring would be Superman. With less of Arthur’s gritty angst and more of J’onn’s incessant hand-wringing.

”Date Night from King was a good one and I think you liked that.��

Have I read Date Night? 🤔 I don’t think so��

”Superman: American Alien & Superman: Brainiac are both so gooooood. I think they hit the heart of the character and why so many people love him.��

I have neither of those on ComiXology.

How about Superman Smashes the Klan? Bright yellow cover. I have that one.

Do so many people love Superman? Maybe it’s the cheekbones��

Anne wrote: "I actually BOUGHT a copy of Batman: Odyssey because it's so batshit crazy."

Definitely the mark of a good comic.

Have you made those shelves yet? I want to see your collection.

”You should look that one up on DC Infinite and give it a gander, my good friend.��

I love giving (and getting…wait, no, I don’t) ganders.

If Batman: Odyssey is even half of what you say, it may be the perfect follow-up to Spurrier’s Godshaper.

I’m on it…by the end of the week. (I will ask permission.)

Now we get to my two-facedness, because NOW I'm going to talk about how much I love Frank Miller.

Two extremely powerful pages. Especially the 2nd. The gradual slipping of Batman... slowly, moment by moment, the beast breaks out. Fairly simple but one of my favorite parts of the whole comic. Much more of that aforementioned Krigstein inspiration!

This deserves a place in the discussion.



Such a clear image of the truth. The scars didn't make two-face; they were just a cog in bringing out something a long time in the making.

"I see... A reflection, Harvey. A reflection."



Another favorite for the writing. I know it by heart.

"But I don’t know if Miller’s Batman was sadistic. Capable of great violence, yes. But he typically restrained himself.

This is why TDKR still deserves its status as a great Batman story. Batman is violent, sure. But it's not because he just loves to hurt. His targets are always the pure filth that inhabits the earth. Where it counts, he does show restraint. He's at least not a gun-toting killer. He still actively advocates against them. The fact that he guides the Sons of Batman away from the wrong path is probably one of the most key elements in this story. It best shows that the beast still has Bruce Wayne. Batman is still a hopeful symbol.

All-Star Batman and Robin's and Strikes Again's Batman is not the same character. At all. It's a shame whatever happened to Miller.

This year, I plan to read Ronin (which I bought a couple months ago) and re-read (and finish this time) his Daredevil run. I just need to get Born Again. I snagged Miller Daredevil vol 3 for a bargain price and was gifted Man Without Fear. Kindle has vol 1 and my library has a different collection that covers every other issue missing except two- which I also bought on Kindle. So the only thing I need is Born Again.

Dave wrote: "I have neither of those on ComiXology."

Go read them on DC Infinite.

Dave wrote: "Anne wrote: "I actually BOUGHT a copy of Batman: Odyssey because it's so batshit crazy."

Definitely the mark of a good comic.

Have you made those shelves yet? I want to see your collection."

I was supposed to get them this week but life happened. All of my books are gently stacked in David's old room, just waiting for me to get the shelving in there.

cloverina wrote: "Now we get to my two-facedness, because NOW I'm going to talk about how much I love Frank Miller.

Two extremely powerful pages. Especially the 2nd. The gradual slipping of Batman... slowly, momen..."

Those are great pages.

cloverina wrote: "Now we get to my two-facedness, because NOW I'm going to talk about how much I love Frank Miller."

Why is that two-facedness?

We love art, not necessarily its creators. We often conflate the two.

Art is not the artist and vice versa.

Creators can change, too.

I can’t tell you how much I love TDKR. To this day��

I see the flaws and I don’t care. Every time I read it, I am captured all over again and marvel at what Miller constructed.

But I am not a Miller “fanboy��.

My Wife was the one who began helping me separate artists/creators from their art. In her 20s, she was intimately involved with the music business. She met dozens of musicians who I dreamed of just sharing air with. She found some of them to be a**holes. She was disabused of the artist-art concept very early in her adult life.

TDKR is brilliant…for the panels you shared and so many more. Like Harvey, Bruce has his scars, too. Only Bruce fought to make something of his. Harvey gave up and gave in…became cruelty.

Maybe Miller was having an out-of-body experience when he wrote TDKR. I don’t know which Miller is the “true�� Miller…pre- or post-9/11.

I only know that, for me, TDKR is a landmark comic.

One of the first that I always share with people if they express an interest in comics. Anne will tell you how much I pushed the “oatmeal�� art on her.

I have not read Miller’s All-Star Batman. I “own�� it, but I probably never will read it. I have read Dark Knight Strikes Again, and, while I don’t particularly like it, I do not hate it as much as some people do. Probably because I have never been a fan of the Boy Wonder. Seeing his “talking head�� was much needed therapy.

Happy reading with Daredevil and Ronin.

I have never considered you two-faced (flip a coin?). You are very honest. We like what we like. We don’t like what we don’t. Reasons are unnecessary although they may help us understand ourselves.

Anne wrote: "Go read them on DC Infinite."

I will. I will.

I just need a minute��

I’m catching up on Spurrier right now. (And being somewhat quiet about it so as not to offend.)

Anne wrote: "I was supposed to get them this week but life happened."

Life is so annoying that way��

🎵🎶
Life, life
Go away
Come again
Another day 🎶🎵

Will you share a photo when you finally reach Comics Nirvana in your home?

I keep encouraging my Wife to organise her collection and take a photo.

We’ll see which one of you gets there first.

RiP, David’s room…RiP.

While I was moving my mound of books downstairs, I found a bunch of unread comics that were hidden under another mound of comics! It was like finding lost treasure!

Take your time with Spurrier. But do hit both of those sappy comics I recommended. They take the SUPER out of Superman and showcase why people like me love him when the character is done correctly.
PS - you didn't think Aquaman could be likable, either. Oh, and Superman Brainiac is Geoff Johns...

Dave wrote: "RiP, David’s room…RiP"

I know! But knowing that it will house my comics will make him smile. He's already laid claim to my books "when I die".

Anne wrote: "While I was moving my mound of books downstairs, I found a bunch of unread comics that were hidden under another mound of comics! It was like finding lost treasure!��

That’s probably a similar, yet better, feeling than finding that stray McDonald’s french fry at the bottom of the bag.

Did you find your copy of Crossed?

There are good reasons for some “treasures�� to stay buried. 🙂

Your Necronomicon��

”But do hit both of those sappy comics I recommended.��

Sappy? Why didn’t you lead with that?

“Sappy�� and “Anne recommended�� are a five star read for me.

”PS - you didn't think Aquaman could be likable, either. Oh, and Superman Brainiac is Geoff Johns...��

I know.

You shamed me.

I read Aquaman to way past when Johns stopped writing the title.

Johns is magic.

Anne wrote: "He's already laid claim to my books "when I die"."

Very thoughtful. 🙂

At least your death will have meaning. We should all be so fortunate.

My sons are going to get my credit card debt. I’m so excited for them.

Dave wrote: "I have never considered you two-faced."

I don't consider myself two-faced either, but to talk passionately about what sucks about a comic and then talk even more passionately about how incredible it is is a pretty two-faced thing to do. Lol

"I have not read Miller’s All-Star Batman. I “own�� it, but I probably never will read it."

I highly recommend it. Not because it's good, but because it's so bad it's hilarious.

It makes Strikes Again so much more disturbing, though. What they don't tell you in that book is that Dick isn't just suddenly Joker. He's not crazy for no reason. He's become this because BATMAN ABUSES HIM.

He neglects him, beats him, verbally abuses him, and all this is after KIDNAPPING HIM. Bruce is a product of immense trauma, and his goal in life (THE WHOLE POINT OF BATMAN) is to make sure nobody else has to experience it. Millers batman is the direct cause of all of Dick's trauma, and he causes it with no remorse.

Then, once Dick comes back as Joker, his ONLY motive, as he tells Batman, is that all he wanted was Batman to love him. He would've given him everything in the world. Batman was all he had in a world where he had NOTHING. His parents were dead, all he had was Batman. And he CAST HIM ASIDE LIKE HE WAS NOTHING? JUST TO REPLACE HIM WITH JASON? And in this world there is no discussion, there is no Nightwing, that's IT. That's just IT. He traumatizes him, disposes of him, and doesn't think again about it.

Dick Joker was supposed to be just a regular ol scary villain, but I nearly cried at the end. These characters mean a lot to me. When Dick screamed something along the lines of "I LOVED YOU! I WOULD'VE GIVEN YOU EVERYTHING!" it's only met with "You didn't serve any purpose to me anymore." before he KILLS HIM with glee.

Reading Dark Knight Strikes Again with the knowledge of ASBAR makes it so much worse. ASBAR is funny bad, but Strikes Again is disgusting, bigoted, and disturbing.

Sorry for all the caps and long rant. I really, really hate that comic. Worse than the Palmiotti run of Harley Quinn.



Had to edit a lot of typos that I made because I was typing with wild rage lol

Anne wrote: "While I was moving my mound of books downstairs, I found a bunch of unread comics that were hidden under another mound of comics! It was like finding lost treasure!"

Equivalent to finding M&Ms in a jacket pocket from the movie I watched in theatres a month before.

Oh God, now this thread reminded me of Crossed! Seeing 2 pages of it was enough for me... No thank you!

cloverina wrote: "Dick Joker was supposed to be just a regular ol scary villain, but I nearly cried at the end. These characters mean a lot to me. When Dick screamed something along the lines of "I LOVED YOU! I WOULD'VE GIVEN YOU EVERYTHING!" it's only met with "You didn't serve any purpose to me anymore." before he KILLS HIM with glee."

I read this very, very differently, but then I didn’t have the advantage (disadvantage?) of reading All-Star Batman.

I never questioned why Dick Grayson became what he did. I simply accepted it.

In the “main�� continuity, Grayson becomes Nightwing. In this one, he becomes…something else (trying to avoid spoilers).

Without reading All-Star Batman, one of the two characters squaring off against each other was a bit (a lot?) more insane than the other.

I had no sympathy for the main villain. None. Even after he started crying/pleading. He was cruel and vindictive. Immediately prior to the final confrontation, he mutilated and nearly killed Carrie Kelly. Batman loved Carrie and felt the horror of not being able to protect her from the weaponised human being that he had created.

I felt that Batman did have some sympathy for his protégé (I didn’t, but then I never did), but was taunting him to gain even the slightest advantage with an implacable and indestructible enemy.

I think the two of them were way past hugging it out.

Most of us suffer trauma at the hands of our parents or parental figures. Each of us experiences that pain differently and we have different resources to deal with it. Some situations are absolutely horrible. Fictional Batman lost his parents. So did Dick. Choice, as difficult as it can be…as much strength and courage as it can require…still belongs to each of us.

Batman did not go pick the fight with the book’s enemy. Quite the reverse.

Again, I didn’t read All-Star Batman and based on what you have written, I am even more likely to avoid it. I didn’t have part of the background you did and I don’t want it.

TDKR only mentions Dick a couple times. The first…right above your favourite panel. Bruce does not seem hateful…just full of pain…maybe even some remorse.

(view spoiler)[
(hide spoiler)]

The second when he nearly dies fighting the mutant leader. I can’t parse what he feels about Dick (“monkey wrench��), but interesting that a dying Bruce’s thoughts return to Dick Grayson.

(view spoiler)[




Ironic that Batman is teasing the imaginary Dick about always “bailing him out�� when Robin is now saving Batman. (hide spoiler)]

Perhaps the most telling sequence about how Batman truly feels towards Robin is when he first awakes from his injuries.

(view spoiler)[


Batman doesn’t form personal relationships. He is on a mission. People are tools to accomplish his mission. I get it. Most of us find that reprehensible, but that is the lot of a creature of vengeance/Justice. (hide spoiler)]

The Dark Strikes Again starts the same way as TDKR. And I think the start provides one of the ultimate tributes to the character of Batman…regardless of how Miller truly feels about the character.

(view spoiler)[
(hide spoiler)]

I’m sorry about the rage.

I saw it differently.

We probably are both a bit right. And both a bit wrong.

cloverina wrote: "Oh God, now this thread reminded me of Crossed! Seeing 2 pages of it was enough for me... No thank you!"

����������

That’s one of Anne’s favourite horror reads. 🙂

I don’t know how she came across it, but it was one of her first exposures to the brilliance of Ennis. She and I argued about that book for two or three posts.

If you can believe it, Crossed becomes even more disturbing after the first two pages. Those are mild.

But the final panels…so sweet.

(view spoiler)[


(hide spoiler)]

Dave wrote: "(trying to avoid spoilers)"

Figure I didn't do too well at that, LOL.

"Immediately prior to the final confrontation, he mutilated and nearly killed Carrie Kelly.

This is what makes me have much less remorse for him. He's a sick, twisted, disgusting person too. He's a psycho that truly doesn't deserve pity. But he was still a character who's precious to me, and he only turned out the way he did because of Batman.

I'm sure Bruce cares about Carrie in Strikes Again, but it loses all its meaning when she (at age 16) serves no purpose other than to be constantly sexualized throughout the story. Hard to nail that sweet father-daughter relationship between Carrie and Bruce (and even more with Supes and Lara) when they're apparently grown up enough for Frank Miller to consider them sex objects.

"Bruce does not seem hateful…just full of pain…maybe even some remorse."

I agree. Yet another short but well-done moment in TDKR. But even though it's the same universe as Strikes Again and ASBAR, it's only in name. Batman in those is not the same as in TDKR. ASBAR Batman has the same personality as Strikes Again Batman while TDKR Batman doesn't. Without reading ASBAR your interpretation is reasonable and much, much better than mine. With the knowledge of it I can't interpret it any other way.

We're definitely both a bit right and a bit wrong. I also think they're both perfectly valid. I'm glad you got something out of the sequel.

Dave wrote: "That’s one of Anne’s favourite horror reads. 🙂"

I should try Ennis before I discredit him. It's hard for me to get into him because everything I hear about him makes him seem like an edgy teen. I'll probably start with Preacher.

I'm gonna be honest, I was a little terrified clicking on that "show spoiler" button. What I got actually was beautiful. I may have to read this someday. I'm not so sure... but MAYBE. Just maybe.

I swear I'm sounding mean today, I dont mean any offense by any of this lol

cloverina wrote: "Figure I didn't do too well at that, LOL."

The comic is almost 20 years old? I think most people who would care to read it, have read it. Just part of my OCD��

”But he was still a character who's precious to me…��

I think that’s the main difference between how we interpreted Dick in Dark Knight Strikes Again. You like the character of Dick Grayson/Robin. I do not.

”…and he only turned out the way he did because of Batman.��

I believe that we turn out the way we do because of us.

Some of us are formed in terrible situations. Others of us have to overcome (or succumb to) our own biology. Even some of us have to confront both of those.

”��.when she (at age 16) serves no purpose other than to be constantly sexualized throughout the story.��

I have read this criticism a few times.

I disagree.

She is a very capable superhero on her own. She also serves as Batman’s moral center (for me, the only reason a Robin character is ever necessary). Especially with the death of (view spoiler)[Alfred (hide spoiler)] in TDKR.

Whether Miller or Dick Grayson or even the reader sexualises her, Batman does not.

I probably have a huge blind spot here and may be unforgivably naïve. Sexuality, in any form, makes me uncomfortable and I tend to gloss over it.

I may have overlooked some critical piece of information suggesting that the Batman-Carrie Kelly relationship did indeed have sexual overtones. That would immediately make me hate the book. For a variation of the same reasons that you hate the book.

”…when they're apparently grown up enough for Frank Miller to consider them sex objects.��

People will sexualise anything and everything. I saw an image of Scooby Doo, Shaggy and Daphne that I can never unsee. 🤮 I’m not excusing Miller, but I think most of the sexual world is borderline insane.

”Without reading ASBAR your interpretation is reasonable and much, much better than mine. With the knowledge of it I can't interpret it any other way.��

More reason for me to stay away from All-Star Batman.

�� I'm glad you got something out of the sequel.��

I did not really like Dark Knight Strikes Again. I just didn’t hate it as much as a lot of other people who I respect.

I hated the Master Race. I don’t even think I finished it. Terrible. And offensive.

cloverina wrote: "I should try Ennis before I discredit him.��

Ennis is an acquired taste.

I find him very funny.

”It's hard for me to get into him because everything I hear about him makes him seem like an edgy teen."

Best description of Ennis (and a lot of other comic writers…Remender) ever. 😂 Thank you. Very accurate.

”I'll probably start with Preacher.��

Preacher is one of the Ennis gateway drugs.

”I’m gonna be honest, I was a little terrified clicking on that "show spoiler" button.��

🙂

I will only mess with Anne with my spoiler tags. ���ܳ�…she earned it. She started it.

”I may have to read this someday.��

Plenty of good comics to read.

All 10 issues are unrelentingly terrible and disgusting. But that sets up the payoff.

I have read it twice, and I swore never again after the first time.

”I swear I'm sounding mean today, I dont mean any offense by any of this lol��

I am not offended.

I don’t think you are mean. Just honest. I appreciate honesty. Thank you.

The panel you showed of Batman walking in the streets is when I stopped reading TDKR the first time. The review I made of the book was made because I skipped the rest just to give a quick glimpse and I saw that stupid scene with the woman in WW outfit and I got mad at it. Then, I immediately sold the TP I owned on ebay, and then I sold it again for something like three times at this point. The last time it took two months to sell it, I don't have any idea why. And, of course, like TKJ, if I ever come across to another copy of the TDKR TP I'll buy it and I'll resell it again. Me, on a personal level, the only thing I like of that book is collateral meaning the model of a Bat Tank that lego made inspired from this story (albeit in reality it's a WW1 tank, not the one from here) that I purchased as a copy from the Chinese years ago and I still like it. For the rest, anything from the guy is like a safe trading chip, it doesn't go beyond that.