Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ

Riku Sayuj's Reviews > The God Delusion: 10th Anniversary Edition

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins
Rate this book
Clear rating

by
1651956
's review

really liked it
bookshelves: science-evolution, r-r-rs

The God Delusion - Why there almost certainly is no God?

I have been a big fan of Dawkins from the time I read The Selfish Gene. This book does nothing to damage that, even though it is not as logically cohesive as The Selfish Gene. The God Delusion is easier to argue with and maybe even win, if only in my mind. Dawkins argues mostly against the Christian God that created earth and knows nothing of the vast universe beyond. He remains silent about the God hypothesis that can arise from new physics and eastern cosmogonies.

I feel that while The Selfish Gene was a standalone book intended to convey a brilliant concept in a very articulate fashion to the general reader, The God Delusion is a more of a glorified pamphlet meant to be a handbook of reference for any atheist for the range of illogical, childish or even intelligent arguments that might be addressed to him. An atheist who reads and remembers a fair bit of The God Delusion will always be well equipped to blunt any argument against his position.

But this huge strength of the book is also its major flaw that demotes it much below the Selfish gene in my opinion. The Selfish gene is a must-read book that I would thrust in the hand of anyone I like - because I want them to learn from it, raise their consciousness or because I want to have a wonderful discussion with them. In contrast, the God Delusion is a book I would thrust in exasperation at someone with whom I am tired of arguing and would rather prefer them to go through Dawkins' exhaustive repudiation of most arguments. That is the difference. The book would be useful if I want to convince someone or If I wanted to win an argument. But what if neither was ever my objective? It gives me no intrinsic value that is not situational. But then, perhaps I was never one of the intended audience of the book; the purpose of this book, is not to explain science. It is rather, as he tells us, “to raise consciousness".

He also spends a lot of time debunking obvious fallacies and beliefs purely because they are prevalent. It might be important to show how silly they are, but I frankly was impatient to get on with it and not spend time on such obvious facts. Most of the arguments in the book are ones that I could have come up with too if I had sat down and though about it. True, Dawkins has made my job easier, but what if I am comfortable with not having the God Delusion and with the fact that a lot of people have? What if the formula of zeitgeist that Dawkins proposes about what is moral is applicable to religions too? After all, the religion of today is far from what it was in the 1900s. maybe religion too will evolve and become more and more liberal. The only genuinely useful sections in the book for me were the intriguing discussion on morals and that wonderful last chapter on model building. If only the rest of the book was as memorable.

I have a few other peeves with the book too - It condemns anyone who understand religion and science and takes the informed decision to be an agnostic. This condemnation by Dawkins of agnostics is perhaps my single biggest point of difference with Dawkins.

I have no problems with the debunking of the God Hypothesis as Dawkins defines 'God'. But, his atheism goes into exactly those realms which he accuses religious fundamentalists to be going in.

He gives an example of a Priest who says that even though he has moments of reservation about the existence of a God, he keeps such doubts to himself and extols God's virtues purely so that the common man is not mislead into doubt. Dawkins condemns this as intellectual and moral cowardice.

description

Then later, in a section titled 'Why there almost certainly is no God', he freely acknowledges that "most probably" God does not exist and then classifies himself as an agnostic leaning heavily towards atheism. Then he says that such agnostics should refrain from calling themselves agnostics as it will cause damage to the common people who want to support atheism. Is this not the same intellectual and moral cowardice? If you cannot in your own logic call yourself a full blown atheist, do not do that just to prove a point or to support a pet theory. If there 'almost certainly' is no god, then it is 'almost certainly' a 'delusion' to say that pure atheism is fully reasonable too.

Dawkins makes an appeal to closely define the meaning of the word "God". But then, not matter how you define it, as long as the basis is in irrationality, the same principle is being attacked. And hence to say I believe in Science as the ultimate answer when it has so far been unsuccessful in furnishing one is just to substitute the term "Science" for "God".

Of course I understand the value of people like Dawkins being there to be the vanguard for this change. And there is a real need for a spokesperson for the atheists when the other party has so many very vocal ones. But that does not mean that he should call for educated agnostics to brand themselves as atheists just to add religious fervor to the brand. All that is still no reason to call for making atheism an organized religion too. agree with all the points and the logical arguments of The God Delusion but I disagree with the spirit of the book which seems to convey that religion is the enemy for us to combat by organizing ourselves.

There are too many paradoxes and unknowns in nature which science is more and more throwing up its hands in utter confusion towards. What if the universe truly is 'queerer than we can suppose' as J. B. S. Haldane puts it? Dawkins manages to explain most phenomena with natural selection but dismisses the larger conundrums and paradoxes with the great sweeping idea called the 'Anthropic principle'. The Anthropic principle might be a good tool to stall an argument but is no authentic scientific theory as he pretends it to be. It would be the equivalent of saying that the clock is telling time correctly isn't it, so that explains its form and function and hence it needs no designer. I just paraphrased above the argument Dawkins uses to prove that atheism is absolutely valid. Well, unless we resort to such rhetoric devices, it is not. And in the 'belief spectrum' ranging from radical theism to complete atheism, the only position we can take without resorting to faith is one of doubt - agnosticism.

In conclusion, my opinion is that pure atheism is not possible under present scientific knowledge and that is why agnosticism is the only reasonable position to take - without slipping into blind belief in science after climbing out of blind belief in religion.
259 likes ·  âˆ� flag

Sign into Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ to see if any of your friends have read The God Delusion.
Sign In »

Reading Progress

February 4, 2011 – Shelved
January 8, 2012 – Started Reading
January 8, 2012 –
page 56
11.97% "Not as logically cohesive as The Selfish Gene. God Delusion is easier to argue with and maybe even win, if only in my mind. Dawkins argues mostly against the Christian God that created earth and knows nothing of the vast universe beyond. He remains silent about the God hypothesis that can arise from new physics and eastern cosmogonies."
January 9, 2012 –
page 193
41.24%
January 11, 2012 –
page 391
83.55%
January 11, 2012 –
100.0% "The God Delusion is almost a glorified pamphlet - a handbook of reference for any atheist for the range of illogical, childish or even intelligent arguments that might be addressed to him. An atheist who reads and remembers a fair bit of The God Delusion will always be well equipped to blunt any argument against his position. But this huge strength of the book is also its major flaw. More to follow in full review."
January 11, 2012 – Finished Reading
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: science-evolution
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: r-r-rs

Comments Showing 1-50 of 215 (215 new)


Mohit Parikh AWESOME review. And couldn't agree more. I sensed pomposity all over the book, a need to win, to prove others wrong.
Maybe you take such a position to get heard?


Mohit Parikh By the by, he is coming to Jaipur next to the next week.


Riku Sayuj Mohit wrote: "AWESOME review. And couldn't agree more. I sensed pomposity all over the book, a need to win, to prove others wrong.
Maybe you take such a position to get heard?"


Maybe. I agreed that a spokesperson is required. But he deliberately overstates his position and also enjoins his readers to do the same... That did not gel well with me.


Riku Sayuj Mohit wrote: "By the by, he is coming to Jaipur next to the next week."

Oh? I still am fan enough to get excited by that news!


message 5: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M "...radical theism to complete atheism, the only position we can take without resorting to faith is one of doubt - agnosticism."

I have to be a stickler for terminology here. Remember that theism and atheism only relate to a belief that a God exists or not. Either you do or you don't believe he exists; one might be open to both possibilities or is oscillating between the two, but either you accept the proposition that he exists, and believe it; or you are skeptical or reject it outright therefore you cannot believe in a god: atheism.

Agnosticism and gnosticism relate to your belief that a God or gods can not be proven or disproven. An agnostic believes that God or gods cannot be proven regardless of whether she believes it; a gnostic believes that God or gods can be proven or disproven with certainty.

These terms are not mutually exclusive. And it seems that you are advocating for agnostic atheism as opposed to say maybe gnostic atheism as Dawkins may be championing here.


Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: ""...radical theism to complete atheism, the only position we can take without resorting to faith is one of doubt - agnosticism."

I have to be a stickler for terminology here. Remember that theism ..."


I criticize him based on his own terminology. I have written elsewhere extensively about the terminologies that you are using. I agree with them one hundred percent. But Dawkins clearly puts atheism, agnosticism and atheism in the same spectrum and asks even agnostic atheists to forego their doubts and take a leap of faith.


Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: ""...radical theism to complete atheism, the only position we can take without resorting to faith is one of doubt - agnosticism."

I have to be a stickler for terminology here. Remember that theism ..."


if he had told that I should move from agnostic atheism to gnostic atheism, that would have been a more agreeable proposition, but still contentious as there is no proof to justify the movement. Then that argument will spiral into whether I am gnostic or agnostic about the fact that there is any ground to decide between agnosticism and gnosticism in the first place. from this second degree agnosticism, again once proof is asked, it can spiral one more level into a third degree question and so on.


message 8: by Stephen M (last edited Jan 11, 2012 12:20PM) (new)

Stephen M Riku wrote: "from this second degree agnosticism, again once proof is asked, it can spiral one more level into a third degree question and so on. "

Sure, I get a sense for where you're going with that. However, I would say that all you would need to assess your own level of a/gnosticism, would be if there was enough evidence to dis/prove God. If you feel there is enough evidence to disprove God, gnosticism; if there's is not enough evidence to disprove God, agnosticism. It can stay as simple as that.

And on Dawkins' militant strategies. I would say that I agree with you. But it is not as if Dawkins, and other atheists of his ilk, are without reasons for vilifying religion and spiritual belief. I think that it is tough to be too critical of religious people, on the basis that humans are emotional, infallible beings. I think they would agree with that, but they wish to see it completely out of all discursive, social and political spheres, since it can result in irrational decision making and a ready acceptance of propositions without sufficient evidence.

I'm sure you know all these things. I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.


Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "Riku wrote: "from this second degree agnosticism, again once proof is asked, it can spiral one more level into a third degree question and so on. "

Sure, I get a sense for where you're going with ..."


The moment you say 'enough evidence', the element of faith comes in. At what point short of actual sensory experience can one say that the evidence is enough? Even if i agree to your definition and say this: Under current scientific inquiry and results, there is not enough evidence to prove that God does not exist but I am reasonably sure that with the progress we have been making in that direction we might soon reach a point where we have enough evidence to categorically disprove the god hypothesis. However, there is also a possibility that our minds and science is fundamentally limited (dimensionally or otherwise)and might never reach that absolute surety.

if that is my stand, the question then boils down to how sure I am of the possibility of evidence coming and we enter into the spiral i was talking of earlier.

It is a tricky slope and I am not prolonging the argument to disprove you, but purely because talking to you is also helping me clarify these things in my own mind. Don't take it amiss. Which of the four categories would you put yourself in? And no matter where you do, don't you agree that each choice still entails an element of faith? What if I want a position of complete doubt? That would have to be Absolute Agnostic and not agnostic atheist or gnostic atheist.


message 10: by Stephen M (last edited Jan 11, 2012 12:43PM) (new)

Stephen M Well, you are dealing with a deeply epistemological question, a difficult one at that. How can we be certain of a proposition's truth? While I don't even know where to begin with a question like that (see hundreds of years of discourse on the subject), I'd like to make a practical appeal to you. How are you certain of anything that you come into contact with the external world? How are you certain of any logical propositions?

I think we have a basic intuitive understanding of logic; i.e. even if one doesn't know what per say a syllogism is, or it's proper form; when one gives a statement that follows in a cohesive manner from two previous premises, it 'seems' to make sense. By the basic manner which logic functions, we can come to very concrete understandings of the world. By that very foundation of logic we can come to better understandings of our world.

Plus remember that belief in God is a proposition, which you accept, which requires faith. The whole point of atheism is to be free of faith and requiring good reasons to believe the things that you do.

This video should be helpful:


"the progress we have been making in that direction we might soon reach a point where we have enough evidence to categorically disprove the god hypothesis."

In my opinion, the tension between the known and the unknown will always exist. Therefore, I don't think we can absolutely disprove God, because God will always be posited into the areas of reality we have yet to understand. As science progresses, everything just out of the grasp of current research, will be subsumed under the concept of God. Believers will also dispute the findings of current scientific research.


message 11: by Riku (last edited Jan 11, 2012 01:29PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "Well, you are dealing with a deeply epistemological question, a difficult one at that. How can we be certain of a proposition's truth? While I don't even know where to begin with a question like th..."

A very illuminating explanation. I agree with most parts. My main contention is with the idea that "the whole point of atheism is to be free of faith". I argue that to be atheistic is to have faith that the God Hypothesis is either already disproved or will be disproved. We enter into Socratic definitions here which might only have a 'negative answer'.

Your clear argument is derived from your clearly delineated idea of what atheism is and what it is not. I stick to my argument that to be an atheist is to believe unconditionally in science without complete evidence yet provided, that is to believe in the promise of science, ie, faith. Ergo, atheism is not the absence of faith.

I haven't even gone into defining 'God' as Dawkins clearly limited himself to the christian God. But the God i knew in my childhood was not the christian God, but the vedic conception of God which is much more accepting of paradoxes and dualities.

So I now contend that followers of a more linear and well defined God will find it easier to switch to atheism as that God is easier to disprove. But the followers of a more non-linear and inclusive God of the eastern traditions will need more proof to switch to atheism as their God is much more difficult to disprove and more in sync with latest scientific advances. This might be an obvious fact, but I thought I will put that also up for debate.


message 12: by Stephen M (last edited Jan 11, 2012 02:24PM) (new)

Stephen M Well, I couldn't disagree with you more and I'm not sure what else to say. All that it takes to be an atheist is a pragmatic demand for reason and evidence to support claims. That is not faith. That is being a reasonable person. I would posit that every person does this. If I want to know whether or not to wear a jacket, first I check if it's cold and I asses the possible bad outcomes if I were to not wear a jacket if it's cold. If assessing reality and coming to reasonable conclusions, to the best of our ability, is faith, then I guess faith has a much different meaning to you, than it is generally presumed to be. The existence of God is a claim about the universe, or at least reality. Therefore I want to know what good reasons there are to believe that claim. To me, there are not any good reasons to believe in a god. Therefore I don't accept that proposition. I don't mean to attack you, or belittle you, but I'm adamant about this because it is why I'm an atheist. Not accepting the claims about God is based on this very simple line of reasoning and not faith, which I see as a trust in a statement's truth when there is a lack of reasonable evidence.

If it was proved to me that reason and evidence was on par with accepting the claims of religions, which have no evidence to back it, I don't think I would be an atheist.

Also, let me ask you, since I've just been assuming. What are the reasons that you are an 'atheist' or agnostic? If not for what I've said.


message 13: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "Well, I couldn't disagree with you more and I'm not sure what else to say. All that it takes to be an atheist is a pragmatic demand for reason and evidence to support claims. That is not faith. Tha..."

What if the original hypothesis is that there is no intelligent design for the universe? All the above arguments of yours will come to bear on that as there is no evidence to completely contradict that statement either. Just because you choose one of the two available hypothesis and put the burden of proof on disproving that does not mean it is the reasonable position.

There is no reason to believe either claim - of complete lack of design or otherwise. And hence the whole argument. We can play the game by switching the starting point of the argument from "Design exists." and "Design does not exist." Both can be doubted with our existing knowledge of the universe.


message 14: by Stephen M (last edited Jan 11, 2012 02:27PM) (new)

Stephen M So saying "I don't know how the universe came into existence" is putting the burden of proof on yourself? That is a skeptic's position and it requires no burden of proof.

Also, the existence of God is not the default position. The default position is not knowing. And religious people say that they know how the universe came into existence. I say why? They give reasons that I don't accept. That's why I'm an atheist. It is that simple.


message 15: by Riku (last edited Jan 11, 2012 02:30PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "So saying "I don't know how the universe came into existence" is therefore putting the burden of proof on yourself? That is a skeptic's position and it requires no burden of proof."

No. You Saying "I know enough about the universe to categorically claim that it could not have been by design" will shift the burden of proof back to you. And if you believe that without proof, you are relying on faith.

Your statement fits an agnostic standpoint and not an atheist's standpoint.

Which is my entire argument - the only true skeptic is an agnostic. The atheist is making a statement which he cannot prove.


message 16: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M Okay, fine then. Taking 'not knowing things' can be seen as some form of faith. But do you have faith that I am not an alien from space who is talking to you? Do you have faith that there isn't an invisible flying spaghetti monster that loves you and cares for you. To take this kind of position would require you to never dismiss a possibility outright, no matter how lofty the claim and free from any evidence. It would only have to be logically possible and then you would be unable to say that it isn't true.


message 17: by Riku (last edited Jan 11, 2012 02:40PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "Also, let me ask you, since I've just been assuming. What are the reasons that you are an 'atheist' or agnostic? If not for what I've said. "

The reasons for the original shift to athiesm many years ago were exactly what you wrote - the lack of any plausible evidence supporting the existence of god. But then, over the last year or two, through 'consciousness raising' readings (to borrow Dawkins' phrase), I have been forced to admit that I cannot defend a radically atheistic standpoint without having to state that I place my faith in science to one day prove me right. The possibility of that happening might be high but there is also a probability, however small, of that never happening and to that extent i have to be a reluctant agnostic, much as I wish to be a complete atheist.


message 18: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "Okay, fine then. Taking 'not knowing things' can be seen as some form of faith. But do you have faith that I am not an alien from space who is talking to you? Do you have faith that there isn't an ..."

Classic Dawkins argument...

But there is a fundamental difference in the two scenarios. You are making statements that I can deny from my own sphere of experience and yes our existing science can quite easily prove that a flying spaghetti monster cannot be living or flying if it has no nervous system and no biological origin and no supporting devices to keep it in the air. So I am not forced to believe in that.

As I said the fundamental difference is that the question of God is beyond the ability of my reason/experience or of science's extent to prove or disprove yet. It is not a matter of perception but a matter of clear lack of enough data to decide one way or other.


message 19: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M "The possibility of that happening might be high but there is also a probability, however small, of that never happening and to that extent i have to be a reluctant agnostic, much as I wish to be a complete atheist."

That's fair. I won't say the reasons again because I've beaten this into the ground but I don't see it as an act of faith, or, if this can be said, as much faith than it takes for religion. I don't necessarily see religion and science to be complete dichotomies. I think it only takes "faith" in reason and logic to dispute religious claims.

Where you raised in any particular religion? I agree with you that the religion you are responding from effects your potential atheist viewpoints.


message 20: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M Are you saying that if there was a God, by virtue of him being a God (above the physical and all that), he would be incapable of being quantified or conceived of in scientific or reasonable terms?


message 21: by Riku (last edited Jan 11, 2012 02:54PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "but I don't see it as an act of faith, or, if this can be said, as much faith than it takes for religion"

I agree that the degree of faith we are talking of varies, but it still contains an element of faith in that it is not a completely skeptical viewpoint.

I wanted an entirely skeptical position whether it is towards science or religion, until one of them can be unconditionally proved right.

I was raised in the Hindu religion and it is an extremely vast school of thought and has such a wide ranging god that will accept any definition including 'primal energy'. You might be able to understand how to be an atheist from such a conception of God takes an even bigger act of faith than what you might have to take (assuming you to be christian). Hence the extra thought into the definitions and the minutia of the exact position i take by declaring myself to be an atheist. And as I already said, I refuse to take any position which I cannot defend and science still does not give me enough buttress to lean on it completely enough to be an atheist. I hope that day comes soon.


message 22: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "Are you saying that if there was a God, by virtue of him being a God (above the physical and all that), he would be incapable of being quantified or conceived of in scientific or reasonable terms?"

It is one of the probabilities but I don't have any evidence to make such a claim either. Based on what can I make a decision about the nature of God or his existence?


message 23: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M Riku wrote: "It is one of the probabilities but I don't have any evidence to make such a claim either. Based on what can I make a decision about the nature of God or his existence? "

I guess I'm just trying to get at why the claim of God is so special so as not to be on the same par as say "claiming that I am an alien" as I mentioned before.


message 24: by Riku (last edited Jan 11, 2012 10:38PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "I guess I'm just trying to get at why the claim of God is so special so as not to be on the same par as say "claiming that I am an alien" as I mentioned before. "

Because you can prove such a claim and besides, if you are making the claim at least you are not doing it based on faith. You can prove it by showing you have two hearts and a different genetic material than DNA or by taking me to your home planet.

But with the God hypothesis, it is not provable either way and neither the person making the claim that God exists nor the one making the claim God doesn't exist has any valid reason other than faith to make that claim.

If you ask me what IS a comparable hypothesis, i would answer that anything you say which neither of us can know for sure such as if you say that Black Holes spawn baby universes, then i will have to admit I am agnostic about that because we can only discuss probabilities and not certainties.


Mohit Parikh Great discussion here.
I might be intruding, but felt inclined to ask something.

"But with the God hypothesis, it is not provable either way and neither the person making the claim that God exists nor the one making the claim God doesn't exist has any valid reason other than faith to make that claim."
Can we define God here? Or Atheism (again)? Is Atheism a rejection of 'God' as proposed by theologies or rejection of the very notion of a God that exists outside the boundaries of scientific knowledge? If former is the case, we can reject some theories with certainty or by applying Occam's razor.
Sun, for example, is not a God but a 'ball of burning gases'.

Riku
re: faith in science
Are you aware of Karl Popper's idea of evolution of scientific theories?


message 26: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Mohit wrote: "Great discussion here.
I might be intruding, but felt inclined to ask something.

"But with the God hypothesis, it is not provable either way and neither the person making the claim that God exist..."


even if the former is the case, we can still only dismiss directly observable characteristics of god such as miracles and direct communication to priests, but the existence would still be beyond disproving.

In any case, I was discussing more from the vantage of any sort of God, whether we have conceived of it or not. What if the real god is something that no man or religion has yet conceived of? how can we peremptorily dismiss it as an impossibility without knowledge of what we are dismissing?


message 27: by Rohini (new) - added it

Rohini Being a person who hasnt read this book, what i understood from ur review was that Dawkins seems to completely advocate atheism with some confusion towards agnosticism. Taking a leaf from The Tell-Tale Brain, the concept of God emerges from the deep level of sub-consciousness that delineates us from our primate counterparts. Whether you are a theist, atheist, agnostic or a gnostic, these questions wouldve certainly passed by your mind- Who is God, Where does he reside, What does he do? The answers for these are well elaborated in every religion but when one starts to think about the logic and reason behind it, there comes a rocky terrain which very few tread on. Most of us have gotten used to comfort of faith that religion has happily spread. But, as a rational being, I agree that if we have to escape from the maze of pre-conceived beliefs, we need to explore the concept of God or the 'delusion' by ourselves.


message 28: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Rohini wrote: "Being a person who hasnt read this book, what i understood from ur review was that Dawkins seems to completely advocate atheism with some confusion towards agnosticism."

Not confusion. He in effect says that being an agnostic is just plain wrong. Otherwise I wouldnt have as much of a problem with the book.

As for the deep questions we all have and the need for an answer, maybe that is something that separates my quest for this truth from my quest to know some less fundamental truths.


Mohit Parikh "What if the real god is something that no man or religion has yet conceived of? how can we peremptorily dismiss it as an impossibility without knowledge of what we are dismissing?"

I see that you are still arguing against Dawkin's propositions.

Science can not, does not, peremptorily dismiss such possibilities. But neither can it afford to rely on them. (I am being redundant. Stephen already pointed out 1) the two things do not have to be mutually exclusive 2) that the question of a spaghetti monster's existence should merit equal consideration as that of a God's)


message 30: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M I'll just say this:

I think that if there can be this "gradient of faith" as we've pointed out in regards to believing versus not-believing, I feel the word faith to lose a bit of its meaning in this context. It seems to me that we can reasonably expect something to not exist. If we embrace that "believing there is not a god" is a faith-based position, that really kicks down the door to a glut of differing positions that must be deemed "faith-based"; i.e. any unfalsifiable claim: christian god, jewish god, islamic god, hindu god, pagan gods, the existence of another planet exactly like earth inhabited by the exact same people in the exact same way. The list dizzyingly goes on and on....


message 31: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Mohit wrote: "2) that the question of a spaghetti monster's existence should merit equal consideration as that of a God's

You are not getting it. With current science i can clearly disprove such a monster's existence. Hence i can be atheistic about it but for questions such as God and Black holes spawning baby universes, they are theories or models of the universe that cannot yet be tested and hence I have to be agnostic...


message 32: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "I'll just say this:

I think that if there can be this "gradient of faith" as we've pointed out in regards to believing versus not-believing, I feel the word faith to lose a bit of its meaning in t..."


Agreed. So from the beginning all I am saying is that the only 100% skeptical and rational position to take is that of being an agnostic - of admitting that i have no means of knowing either way, of admitting my ignorance on the matter. The moment I say for or against god, I rely on faith (however big or small) in religion or science.


message 33: by Riku (last edited Jan 12, 2012 06:14AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Mohit wrote: "Science can not, does not, peremptorily dismiss such possibilities. But neither can it afford to rely on them."

If you neither dismiss nor rely then you are an agnostic.


message 34: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M Riku wrote: "Stephen M wrote: "I'll just say this:

I think that if there can be this "gradient of faith" as we've pointed out in regards to believing versus not-believing, I feel the word faith to lose a bit o..."


Fair enough. We might just be coming to a semantic distinction with terms at this point.


message 35: by Riku (last edited Jan 12, 2012 01:24AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Stephen M wrote: "Fair enough. We might just be coming to a semantic distinction with terms at this point. "

True. But it still has been wonderful talking to you. :)


message 36: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M Riku wrote: "Stephen M wrote: "Fair enough. We might just be coming to a semantic distinction with terms at this point. "

True. But it still has been wonderful talking to you. :)"


Oh, haha of course, mutual. Debate is one of the best ways to come to a deeper understanding of things. Socrates was at least right about one thing......


Nandakishore Mridula Riku, IMO there is no such thing as Agnosticism. It is just a political position.

I used to call myself Agnostic, but not any more. Now when somebody asks me the question: "Do you believe in God?" I reply: "No." Then they ask: "Oh, so you are an Atheist?" I say: "No. I just don't believe in God."

The onus is not on science to "disprove" the existence of God, when Theists have not been able to provide proof that he/she/it exists. I may as well posit that the world has been created by the "Great Thingamajig" when He farted. How do I know this? Well, it came to me in a dream! Now let science disprove that!

I agree with Dawkins on all his facts, only I did not like his tone which was resembling that of an evangelist. Also, he did not analyse why mankind still requires spirituality, when the God premise has more or less failed.

BTW, your statement that "agnosticism is the only reasonable position to take" is didactic and cannot be justified from a scientific point of view! ;)


message 38: by Riku (last edited Mar 03, 2012 01:29AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Nandakishore wrote: "Riku, IMO there is no such thing as Agnosticism. It is just a political position.

I used to call myself Agnostic, but not any more. Now when somebody asks me the question: "Do you believe in G..."


I don't want to get into this argument all over again but I consider my position the more evolved one. :)

And as long as no reasonable argument can be presented for or against the hypothesis, agnosticism remains the 'only reasonable postion'. As for burden of proof, it is just wordplay. The position should stand the test no matter where the burden falls.

That said, I respect your opinion. But if there has to be a label, I would prefer the label of an 'agnostic' over that of an 'atheist' as that involves as much of a leap of faith as required to be a 'theist'.

You might want to look at the last part of this review that deals with the 'delusion'.


message 39: by Nandakishore (last edited Mar 03, 2012 05:26AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Nandakishore Mridula The existence of God isn't a hypothesis because it is not testable. Secondly, one cannot posit something and say: "Disprove it! Otherwise it is as likely to exist as not!" This is just bad logic.

Agnosticism is just fence-sitting: hedging your bets both ways. It is nothing but politics, according to me.


message 40: by Riku (last edited Jun 29, 2012 02:52AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Nandakishore wrote: "The existence of God isn't a hypothesis because it is not testable. Secondly, one cannot posit something and say: "Disprove it! Otherwise it is as likely to exist as not!" This is just bad logic.
..."


And atheism is just blind faith to me. Not having the courage to sit on the fence when one has no clue what is on either side. Or an act of oneupmanship.

How do you claim it is not testable?

A Microbe hypothesis would have been untestable in the middle ages but that did not mean that microbes did not exist or that the hypothesis is not valid. I find it a good test of a logical fallacy when someone invokes 'burden of proof'.

All I am saying is that you can not claim that you rest on the pillar of reason if you have no way to validly disprove a hypothesis or a counter proposal.

Hence, any scientist, including Dawkins and Crick, are agnostics. Both of them do accept it too, by the way. Dawkins just takes the step to say that let us just call it atheism for effect.

To call agnosticism as fence-sitting is the main bone of contention for me. It is not. It is not political but is the only rigorously logical position until we prove it decisively one way or the other.

By the way, what do you mean by "just politics"? By your definition I feel atheism too should then be classified in the same category.

And just for the sake of interest, what would be the label you would put on yourself, if you had to? If you are unwilling to call yourself an atheist or a theist, you are an agnostic. You can't say I just don't believe in god and refuse to be categorized. that too is agnosticism. I too don't believe in many definitions of God that are already patently disproved. That does not make me an atheist as long as I am willing to keep an open mind to other definitions. And keeping that open mind puts me firmly in the agnostic camp.

Unfortunately the term has acquired derogatory meanings which encourages people to see it as fence-sitting. I hope that changes.


message 41: by Riku (last edited Mar 03, 2012 05:42AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Nandakishore wrote: "hedging your bets both ways.
..."


What is there to hedge against? It is not a game in which you have to take a side. It is in the spirit of genuine scientific inquiry that I propose the humility of agnosticism. Let us work towards a theory of our origins without closing any doors just because of our biases.

It is not to have taken a side early and to triumphantly say that "I told you so.", but to not close one's mind to possibilities.


Nandakishore Mridula Riku, I do not believe in God, but I do not see the need to label myself as atheistic: because I do not see any valid scientific arguments for the existence of a God. It is not a scientific hypothesis at all. If somebody says something happens due to the will of God, how can one construct an experiment to prove or disprove it?

By calling myself an Atheist, I am putting myself in the same category as Theists by arguing against a scientifically untenable hypothesis which is not even worth serious discussion. This is the problem I have with Dawkins's book: it is too polemical. He should just have given them the horse laugh!

Also, if I call myself agnostic, I am saying "I don't know whether there is a God or not," which I consider patently silly when I don't the argument for God's existence in the first place.


Nandakishore Mridula Riku wrote: "It is not to have taken a side early and to triumphantly say that "I told you so.", but to not close one's mind to possibilities. "

Oh yes, the universe might have been created by the fart of the Great Thingamajig as I said earlier. My mind is open to that possibility also! :D


message 44: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj What are you basing your beliefs on? unless you have sources that none of the leading scientists have today, I don't see any way that anyone can take such a stand.

As I said, if I went to a medieval philosopher and proposed the Microbe Hypothesis, he would give me the same arguments.

The fact is that we really do not know yet. Why is it so difficult to accept? The probability from our previous experience might seem to indicate that the hypothesis is false, but that has never been a very firm ground to base arguments on.

Since you find the whole idea silly and have no reasons to explain why it is so, where is the logic coming from? From inherent feelings? Intuition?


message 45: by Riku (last edited Mar 03, 2012 05:59AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Nandakishore wrote: "Oh yes, the universe might have been created by the fart of the Great Thingamajig as I said earlier. My mind is open to that possibility also! :D "

If it is, then you are an agnostic. By the way, the universe might have come from far less significant things too. It is not a laughingly silly thing as you might think. Any quantum fluctuation, even my typing on this keyboard is a potential universe creating incident, given the right probabilities.

I don't find these attempts at bringing ridiculous comparisons in any way logically rigorous. These are just ways of covering up the basic fact of our ignorance by saying that "see this is absurd, so what you say is absurd too" even when there is no real parallel.


message 46: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Disclaimer: Do not mistake me for an apologetic. I am right there on the edge of being an atheist, always tempted to go over but hanging by the tenuous thread of reason and open-mindedness.


Nandakishore Mridula Riku, whatever I have seen of the physical universe does not require the existence of a transcendent being for explanation. The fact that we still do not know the nature of certain phenomena does not, for me, signify the probable existence of God: for me, it simply means that we lack information.

I find the whole argument about whether God exists or not to be profoundly irrelevant. I would say that Dawkins should not have wasted time and energy in writing this book!


Nandakishore Mridula Riku wrote: "I don't find these attempts at bringing ridiculous comparisons in any way logically rigorous. These are just ways of covering up the basic fact of our ignorance by saying that "see this is absurd, so what you say is absurd too" even when there is no real parallel."

I find most of the arguments for the existence of a God to be equally ridiculous.


message 49: by Riku (last edited Mar 03, 2012 06:08AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Nandakishore wrote: "Riku, whatever I have seen of the physical universe does not require the existence of a transcendent being for explanation. The fact that we still do not know the nature of certain phenomena does ..."

Not a particularly scientific attitude I would say. The proper attitude is to consider all the possibilities and eliminate them one by one and not dismiss anything as silly just because it seems outlandish from our established convictions. If that was the way to do things, the general theory of relativity and even electromagnetism would never have come into being.

What men had seen of the physical universe till then would have given them no reason to not be contented and not seek any further.


message 50: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Nandakishore wrote: "Riku wrote: "I don't find these attempts at bringing ridiculous comparisons in any way logically rigorous. These are just ways of covering up the basic fact of our ignorance by saying that "see thi..."

As I said, unless you have an earth-shaking explanation for why it is ridiculous, it ceases to be ridiculous to others who don't share your intuitive certainties.

You can create a new category called 'acogito' or something which is a category of people who refuse to think of the god hypothesis on the principle that it is ridiculous?


« previous 1 3 4 5
back to top