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Petra is wondering when this dawn will beome day's Reviews > Lingo
Lingo
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This was a kind of whirlwind tour of the history of the languages of Europe. How they began, developed and spread or died. I've been reading quite a few linguistics books recently and this kind of rounds them out in a very light and entertaining way.
Countries are often very fierce about their national language as it is the main, defining point of their nationhood. There are many examples from Basque to Monagasque. One closer to home for me is Irish Gaelic was just about extinct and no one speaks it as their first language, yet it is an official EU language and so everything must be translated into it and also translators must be on hand for simultaneous translation of the language in debates etc. Every single Irishman speaks English, this is a total waste of money.
In Scotland they are planning the same, in case of independence they will need their own language (Glasgow already does. Glaswegian is subtitled on tv. Anyone from south of Tyneside - and possibly further north than that - cannot understand a drunken Glaswegian and they ). At the moment Scottish Gaelic is spoken by 1.1% of the population all of whom speak English as well.
And so it is with the languages of Europe. Those tiny principalities like Luxembourg and provinces with enough clout teach these more or less extinct languages to their children and insist they are the official tongue. They've never heard of 'the more we are together the happier we shall be'. But then perhaps I'm just an English-speaking (but Welsh) chauvinist.
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Author's individual and right-on attitude to history. (view spoiler)
Note on starting the book. (view spoiler)
Countries are often very fierce about their national language as it is the main, defining point of their nationhood. There are many examples from Basque to Monagasque. One closer to home for me is Irish Gaelic was just about extinct and no one speaks it as their first language, yet it is an official EU language and so everything must be translated into it and also translators must be on hand for simultaneous translation of the language in debates etc. Every single Irishman speaks English, this is a total waste of money.
In Scotland they are planning the same, in case of independence they will need their own language (Glasgow already does. Glaswegian is subtitled on tv. Anyone from south of Tyneside - and possibly further north than that - cannot understand a drunken Glaswegian and they ). At the moment Scottish Gaelic is spoken by 1.1% of the population all of whom speak English as well.
And so it is with the languages of Europe. Those tiny principalities like Luxembourg and provinces with enough clout teach these more or less extinct languages to their children and insist they are the official tongue. They've never heard of 'the more we are together the happier we shall be'. But then perhaps I'm just an English-speaking (but Welsh) chauvinist.
__________
Author's individual and right-on attitude to history. (view spoiler)
Note on starting the book. (view spoiler)
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Lingo.
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Reading Progress
December 28, 2015
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Started Reading
December 28, 2015
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December 31, 2015
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Finished Reading
January 2, 2016
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Dec 28, 2015 11:05PM
Been on my Amazon wish list since before it was released! Curious see how it winds up for you.
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It is interesting and a good read. I was looking for something readable on proto-Indo-European though and this this fits in but isn't about PIE much at all.
It is interesting to remember that the area of today's Lithuania is geographically the area where Proto Indo-European has been postulated to have emerged.
I thought that the survival of so many words fed into that thesis. I would like to read a lot more, especially from the Sanskrit/Indo side as everything so far has been from the European one.
Petra X wrote: "I thought that the survival of so many words fed into that thesis. I would like to read a lot more, especially from the Sanskrit/Indo side as everything so far has been from the European one."I think I had to promise not to recommend anything in order to be your friend on Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ, but if you are interested in PIE, let me know. As a specialist in Zoroastrianism, I have a considerable background in the languages in which you are interested.
This sounds great, Petra. And Michael, if you read this, I'd be happy to have a recommendation. I speak a little Farsi and I'm interested in all things related to that part of the world.
Michael wrote: "I think I had to promise not to recommend anything in order to be your friend on Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ, but if you are interested in PIE, let me know. ..."Yes! Recommendations based on reviews that's different. Those are recommendations in context and I like those.
Petra X wrote: "Michael wrote: "I think I had to promise not to recommend anything in order to be your friend on Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ, but if you are interested in PIE, let me know. ..."Yes! Recommendations based on review..."
Depending on your level of interest, you might want to try the following (each of which will have bibliographies that can lead you endlessly down the rabbit hole of PIE): J. P. Mallory and D. Q. Adams, The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the Proto-Indo-European World(2006), Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans (1989), David W. Anthony's The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (use the 2010 paperback, originally published 2007) [v. my review on Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ], and Emile Benveniste's Indo-European Language and Society (1973 translation by E. Palmer of Le vocabulaire des institutions indo-europeenes, 1969).
If you are familiar with the J. P. Mallory/Colin Renfrew competing hypotheses on Indo-European origins and spread, I think Mallory is on more solid ground, but new archaeological work and genetic studies are creating as many exciting problems as they solve. Let me know if you have specific interests in PIE -- there are enough books and journal articles on the subject to create a multi-volume bibliography
Michael wrote: "If you are familiar with the J. P. Mallory/Colin Renfrew competing hypotheses on Indo-European origins and spread,s..."Thank you for those titles. I think these are going to be too scholarly, as I said in my review, "I want lectures and books that entertain as much as elucidate."
If you are really interested in comparative linguistics, you might want to consider Robert S. P. Beekes, Comparative Indo-European Linguistics: An Introduction (use the corrected and expanded 2011 edition of the book originally published in 1995).
Petra X wrote: "Michael wrote: "If you are familiar with the J. P. Mallory/Colin Renfrew competing hypotheses on Indo-European origins and spread,s..."Thank you for those titles. I think these are going to be to..."
Some can be heavy sledding, but I think you might find Mallory's 1989 book entertaining and enlightening. I guess we need a John McWhorter for PIE.
Michael wrote: " I guess we need a John McWhorter for PIE."A(nother) McWhorter would be brilliant. Hopefully, eye candy like John too.
A book that I enjoyed is Heaven, Heroes and Happiness: the Indo-European Roots of Western Ideology. If you are interested in the history of German, A History of the German Language is great, but I think some of the speculations presented are considered dated now. Both are interesting, and especially the first book is written in a style that is very approachable and readable.
Thanks Gundula.
Joseph wrote: "I love that booze map."Did you notice that the death rate from alcohol is higher from the NE of the UK and double in Scotland what it is south of the Tyne? What the hell they drinking that causes so many deaths?
Petra X wrote: "Joseph wrote: "I love that booze map."Did you notice that the death rate from alcohol is higher from the NE of the UK and double in Scotland what it is south of the Tyne? What the hell they drink..."
Hmmm... could be they don't look down on drunk-driving as much. There is a far bigger difference in the death rate than the drinking rate.
Joseph wrote: "Hmmm... could be they don't look down on drunk-driving as much. There is a far bigger difference in the death rate than the drinking rate..."Or maybe they go in for more long-term drinking? Drink-driving is not illegal or at least never prosecuted, where I am, only drinking whilst driving apparently.
Interesting review, Petra. Your 2016 is off to a great start :)
Deanna wrote: "Interesting review, Petra. Your 2016 is off to a great start :)"Right now I'm reading The Book of Night Women and that is a great start. It's so good I doubt whether I will read any better book in the rest of the year. The writing is beyond brilliant.
Petra X wrote: "Deanna wrote: "Interesting review, Petra. Your 2016 is off to a great start :)"Right now I'm reading The Book of Night Women and that is a great start. It's so good I doubt whether..."
Sounds like an excellent book!! I love the feeling of reading something that you just know is so powerful that it will likely stay with you for a long time!! Enjoy!
Re: Irish Gaelic -- I met an Irishwoman last summer (in her mid-twenties) who spoke both Irish and English as first languages; she said that in her work at a coffee shop she spoke more Irish than English, often when dealing with older customers who'd grown up speaking it. Maybe not strictly necessary to know both, but I'd argue that the time/expense of using both is worth it for the cultural value.
Liralen wrote: "Re: Irish Gaelic -- I met an Irishwoman last summer (in her mid-twenties) who spoke both Irish and English as first languages; she said that in her work at a coffee shop she spoke more Irish than E..."I didn't know that Gaelic was so widespread it was used commercially. I agree it is very valuable to speak it culturally.
This book sounds fascinating, and your review is fabulous. I was shocked when I visited South Wales over a decade ago. I was at a post office with my daughter in Neath, and the microphone/PA system, or whatever it's called, would first speak in Welsh followed by English. Then when it was our turn to see the assistant at the desk, she first spoke to us in Welsh. Then, realizing that I had no idea what she was saying, she only then switched to English. The Wales that I knew, growing up back then, at least South Wales, wasn't like that. We were reluctantly taught Welsh in school. None of us liked it.
Negin wrote: " I was shocked when I visited South Wales over a decade ago. I was at a post office with my daughter in Neath, and the microphone/PA system, or whatever it's called, would first speak in Welsh followed by English...."Welsh in Neath! No one speaks Welsh in South Wales. I remember when we had to tune our aerial to Bristol so we could get the English C4 on the tv. Must be more of identity politics being put above the real world. It's becoming more and more the rule to ignore reality or rewrite it in just about everything where it doesn't fit in with some group of left wing activists ideas. Beliefs being more important than facts. I used to be very left wing, can't imagine identifying with them now.
and then even old English had variations such as Kentish
Larrry wrote: "and then even old English had variations such as Kentish"I've never heard of Kentish. I do know I can't understand a word of Glaswegian or the Potteries accent and have difficulty with Geordie when either they are all drunk (especially Glaswegian) or I am!
Larrry wrote: "furricked this from Watership Down"I never read it. Should I have?
"Irish Gaelic was just about extinct and no one speaks it as their first language, yet it is an official EU language"Presumably that was a political choice: the Irish would want to establish their separate identity - and as everything was translated into English, they could still read that if they preferred.
Cecily wrote: "Presumably that was a political choice: the Irish would want to establish their separate identity - and as everything was translated into English, they could still read that if they preferred...."Shades of Plaid Cymru!
Petra cyborg with holes & screws in her skull now wrote: "Larrry wrote: "furricked this from Watership Down"I never read it. Should I have?"
It's more or less YA, but not in a bad way. My first time reading it now, engagingly fluffy bunny stuff.
I don't think Watership Down is for me. Not big on stories of fluffy bunnies, not even Peter Rabbit. The only fictional rabbit I like is in Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
This seems like a potentially interesting book. I know quite a few linguists working on preservation for Gaelic, and want to note that it's never "a waste of money" since everyone there speaks English. It's through the hard work of speakers and linguists that the language is thriving the way it is currently. Especially given the history of trying to snuff the language out in the first place.
Okay, I'll step off my little linguist soapbox now. ;)
cat herine wrote: "It's through the hard work of speakers and linguists that the language is thriving the way it is currently. Especially given the history of trying to snuff the language out in the first place..."I take your point. And it can succeed as a revived language. Israel did that with Hebrew which no one spoke as a first or even colloquial language. That wasn't a waste of money, and so it should be for any other country.
