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Drinking. Like Mad Men.

Rauf wrote: "Drinking. Like Mad Men."

But so dull. Unlike Mad Men.

Woo. Mad Men.

I guess Hemingway did put Brett on a pedestal. A little.

Rauf wrote: "I guess Hemingway did put Brett on a pedestal. A little."

A pedestal? Being a dame, I think that she's a major biatch. But she's also pretty sketchy --- what makes her such a biatch? It might have been interesting to explore that, but Hemingway told us very little about who she is --- only that all these guys are madly in love with her. Sort of frustrating.

If you haven't yet seen Midnight in Paris, you might like it. The Hemingway character is hysterical.

Apparently I wrote a review for this book. lemme read it for a sec.

Not helpful. Thanks a lot, me.

Sometimes a dame does that. Sometimes we fall in love with someone and we hate ourselves for falling for her but the heart wants what the heart wants.

The story Hemingway wanted to tell is a particular stage in Brett's life, just a sliver of it, and not the whole thing.

Isnt there a passage where they cook the fish they catch and they have brought some bottles of wine which they put in the cold water of the stream while they fish and then drink the wine later? That sounded nice.

Manny wrote: "If you haven't yet seen Midnight in Paris, you might like it. The Hemingway character is hysterical."

Is that the new Woody Allen movie? Sounds like fun.

For the record, I actually walked around Paris with a A Moveable Feast as a sort of a guidebook. I remember liking it, so I wonder about my reaction to this one.

It is indeed the new Woody Allen...

Manny wrote: "It is indeed the new Woody Allen..."

I'm going to watch it --- if I can find a bootleg copy. ;p

Because some idiotic tax dispute with the government, the cinemas here no longer show foreign films.

I'm going to watch it --- if I can find a bootleg copy. ;p

Because some idiotic tax dispute with the government, the cinemas here no longer show foreign films.

That's terrible! Though hopefully it doesn't extend to DVDs, and I'm sure it'll be out on DVD soon...

Anyway, back to SUN ALSO RISES -- I admire it & always happily recommend it. Hemingway brings off a growly yet soaring hymn of the initiate, those whom pain has left grimly aware, surrounded by the callous, smug, & deaf. A useful comp would be some great recent novel of a drug-ridden Vietnam vet, but the best passages in SUN lash & celebrate in a way all their own, & the dynamics are all Brett's. It's the woman who rises, Phoenix-like, while all the brighter objects in her skies descend below an alcohol-soaked horizon.

John wrote: "Anyway, back to SUN ALSO RISES -- I admire it & always happily recommend it. Hemingway brings off a growly yet soaring hymn of the initiate, those whom pain has left grimly aware, surrounded by th..."

I must admit that there's definitely something that I didn't get about this novel. I didn't care for Brett, but she's also an enigma. I don't understand why the male characters find her so intriguing. Surely it's not just because she is built like the hull of a racing boat.

Perfect review! I felt exactly the same way about it. Terribly boring..and just drinking and talking without anything interesting happening.

"just drinking and talking without anything interesting happening."

i would say those two things are very interesting. hahaha.

@Sandybanks

>Jews are stubborn
*in no particular order*
- why did you put this one to be your first - just coincidentally ?

Also I think that you over-generalize Hemingway's point. He only meant this character feature in the venue of the pursuit of love affair.
I might also call it to be persistent and loyal instead of qualifying it as to be stubborn.

I should add that in other aspects of life some of Jews (which are the people I belong too) are quite flexible (and IMHO sometimes too much flexible).
Some of them are also bright and talented.

>Being a Jew in Princeton sucks. (your coincidental second bullet)
How it differs from being a Jew in Indonesia ?

I sort of had similar questions, Alex. Given the scope of this novel, I don't recall Jews being such a big part of the story.

Alex wrote: "@Sandybanks

Jews are stubborn
*in no particular order*
- why did you put this one to be your first - just coincidentally ?

Simply because this point (and also point #2) occurs in the earlier part of the book, which deals with the backstory of Robert Cohn.

Also I think that you over-generalize Hemingway's point. He only meant this character feature in the venue of the pursuit of love affair.
I might also call it to be persistent and loyal instead of qualifying it as to be stubborn.


Quote for bullet point #1, p. 11-12 (italics are mine):

""I want to go to South America."

He had a hard, Jewish, stubborn streak."

Nothing in this section suggests that the "hard, Jewish, stubborn streak" applies only to Cohn's pursuit of a love affair (at this point he is separated from Frances and has not met Brett yet).

I think it's quite fair to conclude from this passage that Hemingway, or at least Jake, considers stubborness to be a general Jewish trait, hence my no. 1 comment.

There is another passage in p. 19 which describes the way Cohn looks at Brett:

"She stood holding the glass and I saw Robert Cohn looking at her. He looked a great deal as his compatriot must have looked when he saw the promised land."

It's suggestive of how Hemingway/Jake views Cohn's actions in relation to his perceived Jewishness.

Being a Jew in Princeton sucks. (your coincidental second bullet).

Quote for bullet point #2, p. 5 (italics are mine):

"No one had ever made him feel he was a Jew, and hence any different from anybody else, until he went to Princeton. He was a nice boy, a friendly boy, and very shy, and it made him bitter. He took it out in boxing, and he came out of Princeton with painful self-conciousness and the flattened nose, and was married to the first girl who was nice to him."

All of the principal characters in this novel have been maimed in some way, and this passage shows how Cohn had been psychologically maimed by the anti-semitism that he encountered in Princeton, hence my bullet point #2.

I should add that in other aspects of life some of Jews (which are the people I belong too) are quite flexible (and IMHO sometimes too much flexible).

I agree. My bullet points illustrate the author/narrator's viewpoint, not mine. You might have noted that they are quite humorous/ironic.

Some of them are also bright and talented.

Can't agree more. How can you not love the people who give us, among other things, Facebook, modern psychology, the theory of relativity, Hollywood, Christianity, Marxism, Lox and Bagel (I wish we have a Jewish deli here!). : )

How it differs from being a Jew in Indonesia ?

Being a country with the largest Muslim population in the world, anti-Semitism is unfortunately quite common in certain parts of my country. However, there are also many Indonesians who are not anti-Semitic.

Link:

I'm also a racial/religious minority in my own country and I abhor anti-Semitism or any other form of racial discrimination. However, it seems that some people do consider Hemingway to be anti-Semitic (I don't know enough about him to say anything meaningful about it).

From the Wikipedia enty on the Sun Also Rises:

Anti-semitism
Mike lay on the bed looking like a death mask of himself. He opened his eyes and looked at me.
'Hello Jake' he said very slowly. 'I'm getting a little sleep. I've wanted a little sleep for a long time ....'
'You'll sleep, Mike. Don't worry, boy.'
'Brett's got a bullfighter,' Mike said. 'But her Jew has gone away .... Damned good thing, what?'
� The Sun Also Rises [70]
Hemingway has been called anti-semitic, most notably because of the language he used and the characterization of Robert Cohn in the book. Cohn is often referred to as "kike" or Jew.[71] It was Harold Loeb, on whom Cohn's character is based, who perhaps lost the most when Hemingway immortalized him as the unlikeable Jew in the story. As Susan Beegel writes about Cohn, "Hemingway never lets the reader forget that Cohn is a Jew, not an unattractive character who happens to be a Jew but a character who is unattractive because he is a Jew."[72] Shunned by the other members of the group, Cohn is characterized as "different", unable or unwilling to understand and participate in the fiesta.[71] Cohn is never really part of the group—separated by his difference or his Jewishness.[30] Reynolds writes that in 1925 Loeb should have declined Hemingway's invitation to join them in Pamplona. Before the trip he was Lady Duff's lover and Hemingway's friend; during the fiasco of the fiesta he lost Lady Duff and Hemingway's friendship, but more importantly Hemingway based on Loeb a character chiefly remembered as a "rich Jew".[73] Hemingway critic Josephine Knopf thinks Hemingway likely intended to depict Cohn as a "shlemiel" (or fool), but that Cohn is the least authentically presented character in the book, lacking any of the characteristics of a traditional "shlemiel".[74]


Link:

As a Jew, do you agree with this assessment?

Ellen wrote: "I sort of had similar questions, Alex. Given the scope of this novel, I don't recall Jews being such a big part of the story."

I agree, but one of the principal characters (Robert Cohn) is Jewish, and his depiction in the novel is arguably anti-Semitic. Please refer to my reply to Alex on this thread.

Sandybanks wrote:

Thank you for your reply and clarifications.

BTW, my own review of "The Sun Also Rises" is at
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

(Comments and critique are always welcomed - that is what GR is for - I think)

>As a Jew, do you agree with this assessment?

I recently was friendly accused of being an a-hole for my POV that Nabokov is too much lenient on pedophile Humbert Humbert (but I still retain my view on that, so sorry - ain't I stubborn? )
.
My review of Lolita is at
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
and also I commented in
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Also of interest might be Lolita discussion under "pedophilia"
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

So let me try to defend Hemingway (who's certain writings I do love, in spite of being a Jew
- ain't again I so stubborn? )
Even if Hemingway meant to be antisemitic - I think, being a realist, he anyway failed to depict negative Jewish character in Cohn. Instead he managed to show in Cohn (in my perception) the real live (sympathetic to me) character with both positive and negative qualities.

In your quote:
>He was a nice boy, a friendly boy, and very shy ...
I see that here Hemingway shows sympathy to Conn ?

At least Hemingway did not accuse Jews for: ;-)
a) Crucifixion of Christ (who was Jew himself)
b) Using blood of Christian babies while making matzo for Passover
c) being extremely stingy (I think it was hinted in the book that Cohn paid Brett's expenses during their mutual *vacation*) - which is one of the stereotypical Jewish negative characterizations.

In choosing whom I sympathize more - between Mike Campbell, who just drinks silently watching Brett's (with whom he is engaged) love affair (or just a one lustful nightstand, really ?) with the "bullfighter" and Cohn, who gets involved in physical fighting the said "bullfighter" - I prefer Cohn as taking some action re that instead of digging his head into the sand (again - it is my personal view).

I hope to think that Cohn's character is not much Hemingway's *way* of showing his own general antisemitism but rather Cohn is used by Hemingway as a caricature (in Hemingway's intent) target to take personal revenge and retribution against Harold Loeb (noted by you already), whom Hemingway had personal subjective reasons to dislike. Of course I wish that Hemingway would not do it - but he did not consult with me unfortunately (you see how flexible I am in my defense of Hemingway ? ).

>There is another passage in p. 19 which describes
>the way Cohn looks at Brett:

>"She stood holding the glass and I saw Robert Cohn
>looking at her. He looked a great deal as his
>compatriot must have looked when he saw the
>promised land."

One could interpret the above quote (leaving aside due to my flexibility the humorous overtone of it ) as just that :
a) Jews (supposedly) do love the Promise Land - that is the Land of Israel , which is now a Jewish State
b) Conn was quite infatuated in his affection to Brett

Both a) and b) are good things (in my view).

>Nothing in this section suggests that the "hard,
>Jewish, stubborn streak" applies only to Cohn's
>pursuit of a love affair (at this point he is
>separated from Frances and has not met Brett yet).

Just a small detail - may be I am mistaken (and I don't have the book around me to check it for sure) but I thought that Cohn *dumped* Francis only after he met Brett ?

Cheers,
Alex

Sandybanks wrote: "Ellen wrote: "I sort of had similar questions, Alex. Given the scope of this novel, I don't recall Jews being such a big part of the story."

I agree, but one of the principal characters (Robert Co..."

Sandybanks, I think you did a wonderful job clarifying that the viewpoints you expressed in your initial post were not yours but rather were Hemingway's anti-semitic opinions of Jews in general. The Wikipedia link most definitely helped me better understand your point as well. Thanks so much for responding in such a lucid manner, because I now most definitely understand what you meant. I'll not think about Hemingway with the same respect as I did before this issue came to light, and I thank you! Have a great reading day.

Thanks for your thoughtful (and flexible :) ) response, Alex. It's interesting to see TSAR from Jewish perspective. As I have said before, I don't know enough about Hemingway's life to discuss his alleged anti-Semitism in depth. I suppose that his portrayal of Cohn might have been strongly influenced by his dislike of Loeb. But as you have pointed out, he could have accused Cohn of blood libel, but he didn't. : ) By the standards of his times (1920's), Hemingway was probably not considered to be particularly anti-Semitic (?).

Just a small detail - may be I am mistaken (and I don't have the book around me to check it for sure) but I thought that Cohn *dumped* Francis only after he met Brett ?

My understanding was that he dumped Frances first, and then lived as a playboy for a while, before he met Brett. So he was being a stubborn Jew when he insisted on going to South America. : )

Ellen wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "Ellen wrote: "I sort of had similar questions, Alex. Given the scope of this novel, I don't recall Jews being such a big part of the story."

I agree, but one of the principal ch..."

You're welcome, Ellen. I suppose that my truncated style of writing might have given an impression that is contrary to what I intended. Regarding Hemingway's anti-Semitism, I don't know enough of him to discuss it in depth, but it might be interesting to read Alex's response to it in message #21 above.

Sandybanks wrote: "Alex wrote: "@Sandybanks

Jews are stubborn
*in no particular order*
- why did you put this one to be your first - just coincidentally ?

Simply because this point (and also point #2) occurs in th..."

Wow, not this entry with citations and references is what I call an answer. Bravo!

It confirms what I'd suspected before about your reviews: you take notes as reading (margin or otherwise, can't say), so it comes in the order of the book more or less, though nothing says it isn't possible to have a later point trigger something earlier. Is that true for the Jess reviews, too? Fun reader response way to work, like margin notes but ironic ones, usually. To go on to reference them. Wow.

As for more boring than Mad Men...well, there are definitely moments there, too, that need to be got through for the more delicious moments, when they occur. Good about that series is they don't hide the boring moments, except behind smoke, so sometimes it seems like a series for those who used to (still?) secret smokathon parties with films just for seeing sexy smoking gestures and views through the blur from one's own creation. I read Hemingway's Europe and Spain books a bit in the same way I watch MM.

Joje wrote: "Sandybanks wrote: "Alex wrote: "@Sandybanks

Jews are stubborn
*in no particular order*
- why did you put this one to be your first - just coincidentally ?

Simply because this point (and also poi..."


Thanks, Joje. Yes, I take notes while reading, though not on the margin of the books. Usually they are in the order of the book though I claim the liberty of not always setting them up in sequence, hence the "in no particular order" qualifier. For Jess' reviews, I write down her comments while we are reading the book.

MM has its filler moments too, but it's still a pretty entertaining show. Can't say the same about this book, unfortunately.

Patrice wrote: "Loved the review Sandy! Yes I think it's generally accepted that Hemingway was an anti-semite. He was also not a very nice person.
I'm reading "A Moveable Feast" for the second time. I liked it ..."

I've read A Movable Feast and I remember enjoying it. I actually used it as a sort of a literary guide around Paris during the few months that I spent there. It was fun checking out the cafes and other places mentioned in the book. Maybe I'll try reading other books by him.

Rauf wrote: "Apparently I wrote a review for this book. lemme read it for a sec.

Not helpful. Thanks a lot, me.

Sometimes a dame does that. Sometimes we fall in love with someone and we hate ourselves for fa..."

From your review:

"These men, they were, in a way, already lost. Defeated. Emasculated. They were just another bricks on the walls. They lived painfully boring existence. They needed to go see people getting trampled and attacked by angry bulls just to feel something. The Spanish word afficianado means you have a passion for bullfighting.
Passion.
Those men didn't have it no more.
Until Brett Ashley came along."


This thing about Brett and the book in general --- is it is a gender thing?

Cbj wrote: "Isnt there a passage where they cook the fish they catch and they have brought some bottles of wine which they put in the cold water of the stream while they fish and then drink the wine later? Tha..."

"Nature is where men are without women: men fish, men hunt, men find redemption."

It was a nice scene.

OK cheers, Sandybanks. I was told about this by somebody else on another forum where we were discussing In Our Time. It has a Nick Adams story where he goes trout fishing with some canned food and has a really nice time. Nick Adams sets camp and then cooks pork and spaghetti. He lies in his tent under the blankets looking at the river and then makes some coffee in the morning. Followed by buck wheat cakes. He puts some buck wheat cakes in his pocket and goes trout fishing. It is very idyllic and makes you want to head into the forest.

Cbj wrote: "OK cheers, Sandybanks. I was told about this by somebody else on another forum where we were discussing In Our Time. It has a Nick Adams story where he goes trout fishing with some canned food and ..."

According to a certain critic, the fishing scene is symbolic of men finding redemption in nature, where there are no women to make their relationship complicated. Also, when the prey (fish or other) is killed the protagonist reaches a level of transcendence.



Is this a common interpretation of this scene?

"According to a certain critic, the fishing scene is symbolic of men finding redemption in nature, where there are no women to make their relationship complicated."

That's interesting, Sandybanks. I don't know if this is related, but have you read SOMETIMES A GREAT NOTION by Ken Kesey? In the novel, Hank and Leland Stamper (they are brothers) fight over Hank's wife, Viv. After Viv leaves the family house, the final paragraph describes the two men leaping over logs with Viv watching them from the bus. It seems to indicate that the men sort of made up now that the woman has left.

hilarious.

Cbj wrote: ""According to a certain critic, the fishing scene is symbolic of men finding redemption in nature, where there are no women to make their relationship complicated."

That's interesting, Sandybanks...."

No, I haven't read it. But the formula seems to be familiar:

Nature + prey killing - woman = male-bonding

I personally don't like bullfighting, I didn't enjoy Hemingway's words about that parties in which they hurt animals. But at the same time i had to understand that by the time that "The Sun Also Rises" was written, bullfighting hadn't a bad reputation at all. Nowadays in the place where i live (Catalonia) bullfighting is forbidden ;)

On the other hand i loved the way he talks about the situation with their friends and the woman he loves, he speaks truly as a man uses to speak about their feelings. I mean that he doesn't exaggerate.

Espantosa wrote: "I personally don't like bullfighting, I didn't enjoy Hemingway's words about that parties in which they hurt animals. But at the same time i had to understand that by the time that "The Sun Also Ri..."

Thanks for your comment, Espantosa. I've always been curious about how the natives of the countries that foreign writers write about feel about their country's depiction in fiction.

"On the other hand i loved the way he talks about the situation with their friends and the woman he loves, he speaks truly as a man uses to speak about their feelings. I mean that he doesn't exaggerate."

I note that most of the men who commented on this thread seems to like the romantic drama. Now I wonder whether there's something that I just don't get about that part of the book because I'm a woman. : )

Sandybanks - Actually this TSAR drama is not "romantic" - quite on the contrary. But "Farewell To Arms" surely is (and that is why it is much weaker).
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Did you took the chance to read my TSAR review (I provided the link to it earlier) ?
>Maybe I'll try reading other books by him.
The other Hemingway's works that I love are his short stories:
"The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber"
and "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" (don't forget to take notes while reading those ...)

"Sandybanks - Actually this TSAR drama is not "romantic" - quite on the contrary. But "Farewell To Arms" surely is (and that is why it is much weaker)."

Obviously, the drama in TSAR is not 'romantic' in the sense of a romance novel --- by "romantic drama" I meant the story of the relationship between Brett and the male characters, which many men in this thread find to be affecting.

"Did you took the chance to read my TSAR review (I provided the link to it earlier) ?"

Yes, I read it. Interesting review, although obviously, we have a different opinion on TSAR. : )

Thanks for the recs. I did enjoy A Movable Feast, so maybe there is another Hemingway that I might like.

This is perfect.

THAT made me laugh out loud!

Soooo true

Love and completely agree with this review. Ennui is the perfect word...

Your review completely sums up this book for me.

meeeeeh...

You r funny. I would like to read some more of your reviews. How would I go about doing that?

Just go to my bookshelf!

That's only .05 swells per page. Not too bad.

I mostly like how Hemingway writes and often dislike what he writes. Your review sums up what I dislike about the content of this particular novel. Thank you for writing it and making me laugh.

Bravo! Well said!

Wow well said! You couldn't have expressed with more perfection what I felt when reading the book... I don't know if the problem is me or what, but I'm just incapable of realizing why the hell this book is told to be Hemingway's masterpiece... I really wish I could see what those Hemingway's admires see in this book!