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Kogiopsis's Reviews > Startide Rising

Startide Rising by David Brin
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it was ok
bookshelves: needed-more-editor, reviewed

After 2014’s SFWA ‘censorship� kerfuffle, I hadn’t planned on reading any David Brin� but that wasn’t something I remembered when this book showed up at the library used bookstore, and I’m weak for the idea of sentient dolphins in sci fi, so� here I am.

The big ideas of this book were what intrigued me: the concept of uplift, the mystery of the Progenitors who uplifted the first other species, and the question of what the planet Kithrup had to do with anything. The problem is that, while all those big ideas are discussed, there’s just� not a lot of resolution given. Many characters are left hanging mid-plotline by the end of the book, many questions asked but not answered, and those that are given answers (like Kithrup’s history) are only shallowly explored. Overall, I left Startide Rising feeling like David Brin had made promises to his audience that he didn’t bother to keep.

One of the factors that contributed to that was the sheer number of points of view. Honestly, I couldn’t even try to count the different third-person-limited (with occasional divergences into third omniscient, to my annoyance) perspectives Brin used. This meant the cast ballooned out of control rapidly, and even at the beginning it was difficult to track everything that was going on. What’s more, some perspectives didn’t even have a bearing on the plot whatsoever: several chapters were told from the POV of an alien ally to humans, who then died a few hundred pages later without having actually done anything. I found myself comparing this approach to POV with that used by Brandon Sanderson in The Stormlight Archives - while it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, I find that Sanderson’s limited main cast and brief interludes to other viewpoints worked well for me. I wish that Brin had managed something of the same grace.

The unfortunate effect of the bloated cast list was that, because no one got a lot of pagetime or introspection, I just wasn’t emotionally invested in any of them. Character deaths or noble sacrifices had no resonance, because the narrative never spent enough time with them to establish them as individuals.

I think the final straw for me, personally, was a marine biology failure. Brin somehow managed to completely confuse pygmy killer whales ( Feresa attenuata ) with orca whales ( Orcinus orca ). Now, I know this was published in the eighties and phylogenetic trees of Cetacea weren’t available at the time, but surely it’s not too difficult to look at those two species and realize they’re not even that closely related? And surely it’s not too much to expect a science fiction writer to actually bother to do some basic research into biology - for instance, the fact that mammal-eating orcas don’t vocalize while hunting.

After that colossal mistake, it was all too easy to find other logical holes in the story. The societies of the Uplift universe carefully manage planetary resources, and yet a Terran geologist has access to atomic bombs to facilitate his research; the sexual element of the human-dolphin interactions on ³§³Ù°ù±ð²¹°ì±ð°ù’s crew was redolent of John Lilly’s work; Brin completely failed to explore the patron-client relationship between humans and dolphins, even when there was ample opportunity to do so.

Overall it just� it felt cluttered, incomplete, and flat. Any one or two of its plotlines could have made their own book, but together they were less than the sum of their parts. And while it’s possible that some of my questions were answered in Sundiver, after the disappointment of this book, I’m not inclined to bother reading anything else of Brin’s.
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Reading Progress

November 23, 2016 – Started Reading
November 23, 2016 – Shelved
November 23, 2016 –
page 237
51.75% "I only just now realized that this is not, in fact, the first Uplift book. Not sure how I feel about this fact..."
December 13, 2016 –
page 334
72.93% "There is just... so much going on in this book. It'd be hard to track half as many suplots."
December 15, 2016 –
page 337
73.58% "...so who never told David Brin that pygmy killer whales and orcas aren't even closely related? I mean, I imagine looking at them could have given him a hint... and I just realized that this book's depiction of dolphins was probably influenced by John Lilly's work. Oh god."
December 16, 2016 –
page 337
73.58% "Also? that's not how mammal-eating orcas behave while hunting. Pretty sure Biggs' research would have been available when Brin was writing this book, if he had cared."
December 17, 2016 – Finished Reading
December 18, 2016 –
page 458
100.0% "@ Mr. Brin: We need to talk about making promises you don't intend to keep."
January 3, 2017 – Shelved as: needed-more-editor
January 3, 2017 – Shelved as: reviewed

Comments Showing 1-5 of 5 (5 new)

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message 1: by Mely (new)

Mely I don't think any questions were answered in [Sundiver], though some may have been in [The Uplift War]. It's been so long I don't remember.


Kogiopsis Rodzilla wrote: "Pedantic much? That's not a colossal error, it's arguably the point: this is an individual with certain variants from a related species grafted in. Not genes, alleles. So at best one would need to ..."

There's a difference between multiple plot lines and multiple perspectives, especially from a narrative structure angle. One of the foibles to which many writers - especially speculative fiction writers - are prone is the addition of perspectives which are extraneous to any of their actual plot lines. If you actually read my review, you'll see that that's the problem I had with the POV-shifting here - significant chunks of it were just wasting time.

As for the cetacean error: the character in question was identified by the scientist who genetically engineered him as F. attenuata, thus signifying that the pygmy killer whale genome was the dominant source of material in his creation. Had the other characters discussed him as a 'killer whale', there would have been no discrepancy, but since they repeatedly referred to him as a 'pseudo-orca', that suggests that he bore a greater resemblance to their larger wild-type cousins than to F. attenuata. Given that they're wildly different in physical appearance, one of two things must be true: either the canonical scientist was wrong about his own creation, or Brin didn't know his whales. I suspect answer B.

I'm pedantic about it because I really don't think it's too much to ask that a writer do the least bit of research. One might perhaps handwave the issue of mammal-eaters vocalizing, given that while Michael Bigg was active in orca research at the time Brin would have been writing this, as far as I know he hadn't published anything about residents and transients yet, but the same lenience cannot be given to the confusion of species. All that takes is photographs.

In conclusion: perhaps instead of trying to change strangers' opinions by being an asshole, you might try... literally anything but that. It's not going to work.


Robert Thompson This was utter crap in my opinion but The Uplift War redeemed the entire series.


Kogiopsis Rodzilla wrote: "I stand corrected. I should have used pompous instead of pedantic.

Sigh, look. Your cetacean kerfuffle, which might have been inflated by you alone - among all the people in the world - remains a..."


Alright, at this point I think it's time to take a step back, because it occurs to me that there is a salient question I should have asked before.

Why do you care so much?

Seriously. Since you came back, I am terribly curious. You are disproportionately invested in the opinion of one total stranger on the internet, and it boggles the mind.

I'm going to spell out what should have been self-evident from the start: I really do not care about what you have to say. I don't. I didn't like the book; I disagree with Brin's writing choices; I think he could have done better. You will not convince me otherwise - not by arguing your perspective (something that belongs in your own review of Startide Rising, which I notice you have neglected to write), not by citing awards (as if awards are any objective assessment of quality rather than being a subjective reflection of the society of the day), not by repeatedly insulting my intelligence. ((I ask again: has that ever worked?))

So, given that - why do you keep coming back? What, exactly, do you expect to gain? And... seriously, don't you have better things to do? Like writing up all the things you appreciate about this book in, I don't know, an actual review of your very own?


Kogiopsis Rodzilla wrote: "Because it struck me as a troll just trashing stuff for the sake of being a contrarian? Besides, I dislike faux intellectualism. Your questionable nit picking of details of the cetacean phylogeneti..."

You haven't 'called me out' on anything, though. You've just repeatedly struggled with the idea that other people have different opinions and priorities than yours. I would have expected a geneticist to parse variation better than this.

Given that a quick glance at your profile shows I'm not the only person you're calling stupid for disagreeing with you about this book, I'm inclined to believe this conversation is hopeless. If you're ever interested in having an actual conversation and not just spewing "you're too dumb to understand and I am a superior intellectual" in every direction like a broken sewer line, feel free to return. Any further drivel will be summarily deleted.


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