Sign in with Facebook
Natalie Vellacott's Reviews > Redeeming Love
Redeeming Love
by
by
I didn't get very far into this before realising that it was R rated. Luckily I got it free so haven't wasted any money and can happily throw it away. One of the most troubling things about this book is that there are a number of reviews from non-Christians commenting on the graphic nature of this book and stating that they wouldn't have thought the writer was a Christian. That alone explains why Christian authors need to be careful with their content, they are representing Jesus.
I am aware that this is meant to be based on the book of Hosea in the Bible. However, Rivers presents her main character as a prostitute prior to her marriage...
What are the moral implications of God’s command for Hosea to marry a prostitute? It appears best to see Gomer as chaste at the time of marriage to Hosea, only later having become an immoral woman. The words “take yourself a wife of harlotry� are to be understood proleptically, i.e., looking to the future. An immoral woman could not serve as a picture of Israel coming out of Egypt (2:15; 9:10), who then later wandered away from God (11:1). Chapter 3 describes Hosea taking back his wife, who had been rejected because of adultery, a rejection that was unjustifiable if Hosea had married a prostitute with full knowledge of her character.
()
The first few chapters dealt with child rape, child trafficking, brothels, drunkenness, adultery, death.....that was enough. If Rivers was trying to relay events in Hosea, I don't understand why she felt the need to include child rape and trafficking in her narrative. It just makes a tragic story even more depraved. The point of Hosea is God's love towards unfaithful Israel despite their waywardness. It is not focused on the graphic exploits of Gomer.
I don't recommend this book which is full of graphic detail for shock value. For those who will no doubt comment that the book of Hosea also contains graphic scenes of a similar nature. It doesn't. The whole focus is on Israel's unfaithfulness and God's pending judgement. It is not on the details of Gomer's sin.
The popularity of this book and some of the comments are representative of the "God as love" or some kind of "divine romancer" beliefs that are prevalent, as if God needs us and is desperate for us, rather than the other way around. The author writes that God says, "Though you deny me, I love you with an everlasting love." That is not in line with Scripture, where God does not love with an everlasting love those who deny Him. God hates sin (and sinners) and demands obedience. Yes, God loves us and forgives us when we sin if we approach Him through trust in Jesus, but that doesn't give us a licence to sin or to presume upon His grace. Redemption (the supposed theme of this book) should lead to a complete transformation of heart and life.
For those seeking a cleaner read by Francine Rivers (and to prove that I'm not just being deliberately controversial) try The Atonement Child [/review/show...] or And the Shofar Blew [/review/show...] or even The Last Sin Eater [/review/show...] but avoid Bridge to Haven [/review/show...]. The Scarlet Thread is mediocre [/review/show...]. Enjoy!
Check out my Francine Rivers shelf!
I am aware that this is meant to be based on the book of Hosea in the Bible. However, Rivers presents her main character as a prostitute prior to her marriage...
What are the moral implications of God’s command for Hosea to marry a prostitute? It appears best to see Gomer as chaste at the time of marriage to Hosea, only later having become an immoral woman. The words “take yourself a wife of harlotry� are to be understood proleptically, i.e., looking to the future. An immoral woman could not serve as a picture of Israel coming out of Egypt (2:15; 9:10), who then later wandered away from God (11:1). Chapter 3 describes Hosea taking back his wife, who had been rejected because of adultery, a rejection that was unjustifiable if Hosea had married a prostitute with full knowledge of her character.
()
The first few chapters dealt with child rape, child trafficking, brothels, drunkenness, adultery, death.....that was enough. If Rivers was trying to relay events in Hosea, I don't understand why she felt the need to include child rape and trafficking in her narrative. It just makes a tragic story even more depraved. The point of Hosea is God's love towards unfaithful Israel despite their waywardness. It is not focused on the graphic exploits of Gomer.
I don't recommend this book which is full of graphic detail for shock value. For those who will no doubt comment that the book of Hosea also contains graphic scenes of a similar nature. It doesn't. The whole focus is on Israel's unfaithfulness and God's pending judgement. It is not on the details of Gomer's sin.
The popularity of this book and some of the comments are representative of the "God as love" or some kind of "divine romancer" beliefs that are prevalent, as if God needs us and is desperate for us, rather than the other way around. The author writes that God says, "Though you deny me, I love you with an everlasting love." That is not in line with Scripture, where God does not love with an everlasting love those who deny Him. God hates sin (and sinners) and demands obedience. Yes, God loves us and forgives us when we sin if we approach Him through trust in Jesus, but that doesn't give us a licence to sin or to presume upon His grace. Redemption (the supposed theme of this book) should lead to a complete transformation of heart and life.
For those seeking a cleaner read by Francine Rivers (and to prove that I'm not just being deliberately controversial) try The Atonement Child [/review/show...] or And the Shofar Blew [/review/show...] or even The Last Sin Eater [/review/show...] but avoid Bridge to Haven [/review/show...]. The Scarlet Thread is mediocre [/review/show...]. Enjoy!
Check out my Francine Rivers shelf!
Sign into Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ to see if any of your friends have read
Redeeming Love.
Sign In »
Reading Progress
March 25, 2017
–
Started Reading
March 25, 2017
– Shelved
March 25, 2017
– Shelved as:
christian-fiction
March 25, 2017
–
Finished Reading
January 29, 2018
– Shelved as:
francine-rivers
Comments Showing 1-50 of 125 (125 new)
message 1:
by
Hannah
(new)
-
rated it 1 star
Mar 25, 2017 01:39PM
I just reviewed this one this week and also rated it one star for the content.
reply
|
flag
I am still going to give this one a read as I feel it has redemptive value for anyone who has come from similar circumstances as the character. Unless you have lived through some of that you can't understand it and you are right it is a waste of your time... for me on the other hand it wouldn't be a waste of my time it would affirm for me that even I can be redeemed and loved by a forgiving God who knows what has come before in my life and what will come after as well... Moving this one up my tbr list !!!
Sharon wrote: "I am still going to give this one a read as I feel it has redemptive value for anyone who has come from similar circumstances as the character. Unless you have lived through some of that you can't ..."Thanks Sharon for your comments but you have made assumptions about my background. My testimony is in my books....My reason for disliking this book has nothing to do with not being able to relate to the characters. It is about using graphic content to sell books. It is also about God's instructions for Christians to focus and think about things that are lovely and admirable (Philippians 4) and not to dwell on evil.
I thought Rivers was a Christian author who uses no graphic scenes or language. Are the scenes graphic in the sexual sense? I've never read a F. Rivers book before but was curious about this one.
You are missing my point. My point was that being able to relate to the characters and their backgrounds, both good and bad, makes the redemption story more powerful in that the characters in their desperate circumstances can be and are saved by grace and we can also be. You can't just lightly allude to the circumstances and expect the impact of grace to be as powerful. Grace takes the lowest of circumstances and redeems us to new life. How are people to understand the depths of despair that we are saved from if the depths are glossed over and made to seem insignificant. Take that for whatever you think it's worth or leave it where it is as you see fit.
I was thinking on reading it, did not knew about this details. Thanks fo highlighting.
Sharon wrote: "You are missing my point. My point was that being able to relate to the characters and their backgrounds, both good and bad, makes the redemption story more powerful in that the characters in their..."Actually, I did understand your point. I guess I disagree. I think you can allude to the circumstances without being explicit and it can be just as powerful and less damaging to the mind and heart. Rivers got it right in The Atonement Child. The subject of this is a violent rape and yet she managed to deal with it in a non-graphic way. The impact of the story was just as powerful. Our human nature feeds on the graphic details in these books because we are sinful, it appeals to us. We can make any number of excuses for reading it--more relevant to us, more real etc but the question is really whether it is helpful for us spiritually. Would we want to read it aloud with Jesus present? We already know that grace reaches down to the pit, we learn this in the Bible without the explicit and graphic details of the sin. But it's a personal choice, as you say.
I enjoy reading Natalie's reviews. I didn't see a place to message her privately, so I will have to make my comment publicly. It is because I respect her scriptural integrity, that I say the following and I hope she will grant me the grace as a Christian brother to say it. In her review, she says "God hates sin (and sinners) and demands obedience." John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Isn't the world mostly sinners? Isn't it God's love for sinners that saves us, since we were all sinners when he saved us? God doesn't hate sinners, but loves them. That's why Jesus died for us sinners.
Rick wrote: "I enjoy reading Natalie's reviews. I didn't see a place to message her privately, so I will have to make my comment publicly. It is because I respect her scriptural integrity, that I say the follow..."Hi Rick,
You can message anyone privately by clicking on their profile and then click "send message." I guess you didn't read the article that is attached to my review that explains what I meant by that comment. There is a sense in which God hates unrepentant sinners and He definitely demands obedience.
This article might be better as it lists all the verses that support the view
There is another side to this in that God doesn't want anyone to remain in their sin or to perish. He also loved us enough to send Jesus to die for us but it's a different story for those who remain rebellious.
I've gotten tired of members of my faith misrepresenting (or not representing) Christian values in their writing while I strive to write to a higher standard. Thanks for the heads up.
Christians can heavily deal with any issue on this planet: but we shouldn't romanticize them or go into enticing detail that causes lust or sin. One painting can be art - another can simply be pornography without shame. The difference is obvious. (To most)
Natalie wrote: "Rick wrote: "I enjoy reading Natalie's reviews. I didn't see a place to message her privately, so I will have to make my comment publicly. It is because I respect her scriptural integrity, that I s..."Thanks, Natalie. Those articles are excellent. I stand corrected. By the way, I had looked at your profile and the messaging feature was not there in the normal place. I have seen that issue before with authors I am following.
I love your honest words friend and the article from AIG that you shared too. Someone just recommended this book to me and it sounded kinda interesting I'll admit. But from what you have shared about it, I know for sure that I should not be reading it. Thanks!
I thought Rivers was tasteful in how she handled the subject matter, and I know people who were deeply affected by this book. The narrative arc about the main character's redemption is pretty powerful, and there are good messages and characters throughout the novel. But yes, the first few chapters are a good litmus test of whether or not you will be able to handle the entire book. In a strange way, even though this book has nothing to do with vampires, I've often thought of it as the 'Twilight' of Christian fiction. Big page-turner, slightly controversial, and mostly popular with women.
Well I don't want to be rude but the Scriptures say that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. What you say in the review that God hates the sinners is false.In the Bible it says that we are all sinners so then based on your review that means that God hates us all.
And that my friend is false because He loves us but we are too selfish and narrow mind to actually see, believe and feel His love!
Dyanna wrote: "Well I don't want to be rude but the Scriptures say that God hates the sin but loves the sinner. What you say in the review that God hates the sinners is false.In the Bible it says that we are all..."
Hi Dyanna
I guess you didn't read the comments where we discussed this. It's a widespread belief but actually the Bible doesn't say anywhere that God hates the sin and loves the sinner. It says that He hates sinners all the day long!
Our society chooses to emphasise love yet God is a God of holiness and wrath as well. He will punish people in eternal Hell for their sin. We need to remember that.
When we become Christians, we take on the righteousness of Jesus. So whilst we still sin, we are no longer sinners pursuing a lifestyle of sin. We are repentant and this is very different!
We also cannot feel God's love. We believe He loves us by trusting in the promises of the Bible and believing they are true.
Wait, so the notion that "God hates sinners" is taken from one verse in the Psalms? Wow, that is ... not responsible exegesis. At all.Perhaps a better method would be to support the notion of God hating sinners with examples from the life of Jesus � God incarnate � where he expressed hatred of sinners.
Paul wrote: "Wait, so the notion that "God hates sinners" is taken from one verse in the Psalms? Wow, that is ... not responsible exegesis. At all.Perhaps a better method would be to support the notion of God..."
Did you actually read the articles? There are numerous verses listed!
Won’t we be surprised by who we meet (or don’t) in heaven?
Doreen wrote: "Won’t we be surprised by who we meet (or don’t) in heaven?"I guess it will all be good surprises as there is no mourning or sadness there....!
I think you may have missed the point of the book. Of course you're entitled to your opinion and the book isn't for everyone, but I wouldn't say it's rated R. Yes, it deals with some pretty dark things - definitely not a book for a child - but that's sort of the entire point. That at the very lowest that we can possibly sink, regardless of all the really bad things we may have done, God still has a plan and still loves us. That even though it might not be our fault, we still have to choose to overcome it rather than blaming whoever or whatever put us in that situation and remaining there.
If you can get to the end, there's a great message in the story.
Also, unfortunately, those terrible things do happen in our world. Just because they're dark or sad or whatever doesn't mean we shouldn't ever think about them. Even the Bible talks about some pretty dark things at times.
If the words in the book were displayed on a screen, the story would be R. There is child rape, nudity, and women selling their bodies. These things can be alluded to in less graphic terms, though the nudity at the end was simply indecent because it was done outdoors where anyone could have seen.There is a scripture about "hating even the garment" that was tainted by sin. We don't have to spend 800 pages of detailed, descriptive sin/hopelessness to get 50 of showing the redemptive parts. The focus is left on the sun, not on the redemption. The story is unbalanced between evil and good, and the specified allegory isn't carried through. When you rewrite an "allegory" too entirely, it ceases to be the same story. Michael was not a convincing type of Christ.
I think that is why I've been avoiding reading her material... are the things mentioned detailed then?
Hmm I guess I'll remove her books off of my tbr list.
Chloe (aka Crystal) wrote: "Hmm I guess I'll remove her books off of my tbr list."I enjoyed The Atonement Child and And the Shofar Blew and a few others aren't as bad. Just avoid this one and Bridge to Haven.
I am not sure which version you read, but I know the one I read was not graphic at all. Yes it eluded to trafficking and rape but there were no details. And yes, it needed to be in the story. How can we ever know why people are they way they are unless we know where they came from? So many people in this world are going through the same situations. Books like this need to be written to show hope and that they are loved. I am curious to hear what you think Christian fiction should be. Life and people are messy, as was the Bible. Jesus walked among sinners and loved them while they were still in their sin. In fact, He loved us so much He died for us while we were still sinners. People in the church are still hurting and don't feel they can talk about what happened to them or what they may have done because of fear of judgement and condemnation. Books with this subject matter and like this help them realize they are not alone. And for people that have been lucky enough not to have gone through this, maybe when they read this, they can have more compassion for those that were not so lucky.
Michelle wrote: "I am not sure which version you read, but I know the one I read was not graphic at all. Yes it eluded to trafficking and rape but there were no details. And yes, it needed to be in the story. How c..."Thanks for your comment Michelle. I've already answered the issues you raise in the comment thread above....
Thanks for answering Natalie and yes sorry I did not read the comments above. It is true sin should not take light because of making sins you make yourself guilty in the face of God and that guilty makes you to not see our Father love for us. Lets be honest no matter how hard you try at the end of the day you still sinned even if some of the sins you do not realize you made. And here comes Jesus that stands by you and try to bring you on his way. In the end this fight of the believe is about if you let Him in your heart. Some peoples will say that they love Him because they fear Him, I do not see it like that you love Him because He loved us first.
I remember starting this during my first pregnancy and I couldn't finish it, because of the R rated stuff. Later I did finish the book, but I've never understood all the fuss. In fact, maybe this is why I don't generally read Christian fiction now. I don't need a heavy handed story with a moral when I read in a book. I just want an interesting story.
Dyanna wrote: "Thanks for answering Natalie and yes sorry I did not read the comments above. It is true sin should not take light because of making sins you make yourself guilty in the face of God and that guilty..."Hi Dyanna, actually both love and fear can be factors. The Bible says that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Jesus told people to repent and said to the Pharisees "who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" This suggests that we should all be fleeing from the wrath to come. I originally came to faith because of a fear of Hell. I believed the warnings about it in the Bible and trusted Jesus for salvation. I know plenty of others who did the same. If you tell people "God loves them." Most will say "Thankyou very much" and carry on as they are. If you tell them that they are separated from God by their sin and in need of a Saviour that generally gets a different response. Either conviction or refusal to acknowledge that they are sinners in which case they are rejecting God. It is because we love people that we need to present the whole message and not just the God is love part.
I read this book because it came highly recommended...I finished it because I kept expecting it to get better. This was too graphic for my liking, and tho supposedly based on Hosea...it’s a very loose interpretation. I didn’t keep this read either.
Are you actually going to throw this book in the trash? I would hope not. I understand that you didn't like the book, but I would hope that rather than throwing away you could simply give donate it, or something more constructive.
Melissa wrote: "Are you actually going to throw this book in the trash? I would hope not. I understand that you didn't like the book, but I would hope that rather than throwing away you could simply give donate it..."Donate it....? After all that I've said about it? So that I can be responsible for others filling their minds with R rated material....hmm...It went where it belongs some time ago...
Natalie, I love reading your reviews and the great links that you often include. Thank you for being so articulate.
Hannah wrote: "If the words in the book were displayed on a screen, the story would be R. There is child rape, nudity, and women selling their bodies. These things can be alluded to in less graphic terms, though ..."Hannah, literally all of those things are also found in the Bible and more. By your logic, the Bible should also be rated R.
There is a way to portray something on screen, where the message is translated without it being too graphic. War stories for example. We are smart enough to figure out what happens in war without a hyper detailed portrayal of every second of what actually happened. But we should still know about it and study the reality of it.
" We don't have to spend 800 pages of detailed, descriptive sin/hopelessness to get 50 of showing the redemptive parts"
I guess you haven't read the Bible then. There's an awful lot of focus and detail about sin and hopelessness in there. All for the purpose of showing the redeeming love of God.
The value of a book is not necessarily in its content, but the purpose of that content and how it's addressed.
Melanie wrote: "I think that is why I've been avoiding reading her material... are the things mentioned detailed then?"Melanie, there are some definite uncomfortable parts in there - definitely not suitable for children. But it's not graphic. Meaning, you know what's happening, but there's not a detailed 'play by play' of it.
Kristen wrote: "Hannah wrote: "If the words in the book were displayed on a screen, the story would be R. There is child rape, nudity, and women selling their bodies. These things can be alluded to in less graphic..."Kristen, could you please provide some verse references for things like specific stripping off of garments for sensual purposes, nudity for sensual purposes, and child rape? Actions being described is what I am talking about here, rather than a simple "this happened."
Hosea in the Bible is a picture of Christ pursuing a church that doesn't listen. The author specified that this book is a retelling of Hosea. Then why did she not have Michael do as Hosea did through the story? Michael isn't seeking for his wife's redemption in the same way the Biblical Hosea does. He gives up on her to the point that she has to come looking for him. Excuse me? Since when does the Biblical picture of God show Him giving up on us? Since when do we have to do all the work to find Him again??
Appreciate this review, Natalie! After reading a book by this author a few years ago and being horrified by the content, I personally have chosen to stay away from all her books--especially this one.
Lindsey wrote: "Appreciate this review, Natalie! After reading a book by this author a few years ago and being horrified by the content, I personally have chosen to stay away from all her books--especially this one."Thanks Lindsey and others for the supportive comments. For me it's just really frustrating. She is obviously a gifted writer and has written some great, clean books. If she can sell books without compromising herself then why not stick to that?
Hannah wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Hannah wrote: "If the words in the book were displayed on a screen, the story would be R. There is child rape, nudity, and women selling their bodies. These things can be alluded to..."Yes, I misspoke about Hosea. I was thinking of another book about a Bible character.
But the point remains. Any representation of God in a regular human person or literature is going to be lacking. There is no perfect example of God outside of God Himself.
References I would have to look up. Which I don't have time to do at the moment. But off the top of my head, there's child rape in the story of Lot - when he offers up his daughters to the angry mob of homosexual men who want to rape the angels. No, it doesn't happen, but Lot was very willing to have it happen. Which means it probably happened a lot in that society.
Or how about Dinah?
Or basically everywhere in that culture? Girls were routinely given in marriage (regardless of her choice) at young ages. I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of them were raped while they were still very young.
And then we have cultures that worshiped Baal and other pagan gods. Where sacrificing babies and sexual perversion was rampant. It's probably a safe bet to assume that Rahab did not choose to become a prostitute. She was probably forced into it at a young age.
So, yes, it's definitely in the Bible because it actually happened. It's described in about as much detail (sometimes more) as it is in this book.
As for the nudity and stripping in the book, it wasn't done for "sensual" purposes. Even so, the book hardly went into graphic detail.
However, yes, nudity is also in the Bible. For sensual purposes. Again, it's not typically graphically described, but it's fairly easy to understand when you think about stories like Bathsheba. And have you forgotten about Song of Solomon? That book gets far more descriptive than Francine Rivers' book.
Thanks for this review. I like Rivers based on her Hadassah/Mark of the Lion books, but I'll be happy to avoid this.
Kristen wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Kristen wrote: "Hannah wrote: "If the words in the book were displayed on a screen, the story would be R. There is child rape, nudity, and women selling their bodies. These things ca..."I'm referring to the scenes, specifically, where things happen like her being sold as a child, her being made ready, her thinking back in recollection of being all the property of that one man, until she was older and he sold her to others. Of the scene in the brothel where Michael purchases her time, and for three pages we have her trying over and over to seduce him and talking about her special tricks to get him in the mood. Of her spending so much time in their home naked. Especially of the strip session in the outdoors, two pages of her taking her clothes off piece by piece as she goes to her husband. The Bible may give a verse or two to state facts, but there is not a single instance of a descriptive foreplay scene. No instance of giving the details rights up to a rape scene. It just basically says "it happened" and that's that. Stating facts, not taking us straight into the scene and surroundings through descriptive creative writing. "He went to a harlot" is vastly different from three pages describing what he and the harlot said and did. (Sex scene following or not, her seduction is still TMA.)
In reply to Kristen's comment above about child rape in the Bible: no disagreement from me that it happened in the various pagan cultures mentioned in the Bible. I just wanted to note that Lot's daughters and Dinah are unlikely to be examples of it. Though the ages of Lot's daughters are not given, their actions after the destruction of Sodom make it quite unlikely that they were children, in that they plotted to become pregnant, and then became pregnant (Genesis 19:30-38).
Regarding Dinah, Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones in his book The Chronology of the Old Testament meticulously examines clues (so-and-so was x years when his first son was born, he lived y years in this or that land, etc., etc.) given in various verses to create a timeline of key figures. In this manner, he calculates that Dinah was around 18 years old when she was raped. (I found the info in his book, but an internet search shows that the relevant info is on this website, too, if you or anyone else is interested: Choose the "Chronology Charts" zip file, then the "CHRT-3CDE" pdf).
(No comment on Rivers' book, which I have not read.)
Natalie, I'm curious as to why the rest of our conversation has disappeared.
It's not rated r. I have read it a few times
Tiffany wrote: "It's not rated r. I have read it a few times"Hi Tiffany, it's subjective. My opinion is that it's R rated and lots of people agree if you read the comments....
I tried to read this book years ago and was so horrified by the first few chapters that I gave up. I wholeheartedly agree with the recommendation of The Atonement Child, though. It’s one of my favorite books.
Is there a way to unfollow you and your reviews?
Martha wrote: "Is there a way to unfollow you and your reviews?"Yes! Just go to my profile page and click "Unfollow" next to my name! It's very simple....Have a great Christmas!
