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Riku Sayuj's Reviews > Meditations

Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
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really liked it
bookshelves: direct-phil, r-r-rs


Marcus Aurelius must have been a prolific reader. He sure was a prolific note-taker, for these meditations are surely his study-notes(?- after all he was a 'philosopher' from age 12). I don't know of the publishing system at the time but where are the detailed footnotes and references? Marcus Aurelius is quite a wise man or at least he read enough wise men. He sure nailed it as far as boring a reader is concerned. No better way to establish your book's wisdom quotient.

I am being needlessly caustic of course(do note my rating above). The book is quotable in almost every page and is good to dip in to now and then, you might well find an aphorism that fits the mood just right every time. And that is why the book is a classic and so well-loved.

Don't read it as a scholar, you will end up like this reviewer. As I said earlier - He is like the wisdom of ages. Aargh :) Not that it is all bad - it is like reading an old uncles's notes after he has been preaching to you all your life.

Good that I am a stoic too. All ills are imaginary. Yes.



[ Or perhaps it was easier to be a Stoic while stoned: The emperor was a notorious opium user, starting each day, even while on military campaigns, by downing a nubbin of the stuff dissolved in his morning cup of wine. ]
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Reading Progress

September 22, 2011 – Shelved
February 10, 2013 – Started Reading
February 10, 2013 –
page 50
19.53% "Marcus, you bore!"
February 12, 2013 – Finished Reading
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: direct-phil
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: r-r-rs

Comments Showing 1-37 of 37 (37 new)

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message 1: by Rakhi (new) - added it

Rakhi Dalal Should I give it another try then? I think I should..:)..4 stars rating from you is provoking enough!


message 2: by Tanuj (new)

Tanuj Solanki I cannot imagine myself reading this.


Riku Sayuj Rakhi wrote: "Should I give it another try then? I think I should..:)..4 stars rating from you is provoking enough!"

The book deserves a rant but not a bad rating. I don't know how to explain. :)


Riku Sayuj Tanuj wrote: "I cannot imagine myself reading this."

In the sense?


message 5: by Tanuj (new)

Tanuj Solanki Riku wrote: "Tanuj wrote: "I cannot imagine myself reading this."

In the sense?"


In the sense you portray it as - avuncular aphorisms. I'm sure they are awesome, for it has survived so long. But I can't imagine myself reading a book of so much wisdom. It will pummel me into anarchy :) Actually I'm amazed by your feat. I could not read the Art of War book either.


message 6: by Riku (last edited Feb 12, 2013 05:53AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I read only after I finished the book. Highly recommended that it be read, even if the rest of the book is skipped. Here is an excerpt that will show how idiotic the review above is and why the book had to be how it is:

To understand the Meditations in context, we must familiarize ourselves not only with Stoicism, the philosophical system that underlies the work, but also with the role of philosophy in ancient life more generally.

Today philosophy is an academic discipline, one that few people other than professional philosophers would consider central to their everyday existence. While we may think of ourselves as having a “philosophy of life,� it bears little relation to what goes on in the philosophy departments of our universities. The careers of twentieth-century analytic philosophy often seem remote from what the American philosopher Thomas Nagel terms “mortal questions�: the problems involved in making ethical choices, constructing a just society, responding to suffering and loss, and coming to terms with the prospect of death. Indeed, most of us would be inclined to see these issues as the province of religion rather than philosophy.

For Marcus and his contemporaries, the situation was very different. Ancient philosophy certainly had its academic side. Athens and other large cities had publicly financed chairs of philosophy, and professional philosophers taught, argued and wrote, as they do today.But philosophy also had a more practical dimension. It was not merely a subject to write or argue about, but one tha twas expected to provide a “design for living”—a set of rules to live one’s life by. This was a need not met by ancient religion, which privileged ritual over doctrine and provided little in the way of moral and ethical guidelines. Nor did anyone expect it to. That was what philosophy was for.

Philosophy in the modern sense is largely the creation of one man, the fifth-century B.C. Athenian thinker Socrates. But it is primarily in the Hellenistic period that we see the rise of philosophical sects, promulgating coherent “belief systems� that an individual could accept as a whole and which were designed to explain the world in its totality. Of these Hellenistic systems the most important, both for Romans in general and for Marcus in particular, was the Stoic school. The movement takes its name from the stoa(“porch� or “portico�) in downtown Athens where its founder,Zeno (332/3�262 B.C.), taught and lectured. Zeno’s doctrines were reformulated and developed by his successors, Cleanthes (331�232 B.C.) and Chrysippus(280–c. 206 B.C.). Chrysippus in particular was a voluminous writer, and it was he who laid the foundations for systematic Stoicism. This early “academic� Stoicism is the source of certain key terms and concepts that reappear frequently in the Meditations,and proper understanding of Marcus’s approach requires some familiarity with the system as a whole.


For those awed by Hayes, the first paragraph alone would also suffice to divine the thrust of the passage.


Riku Sayuj Tanuj wrote: "Riku wrote: "Tanuj wrote: "I cannot imagine myself reading this."

In the sense?"

In the sense you portray it as - avuncular aphorisms. I'm sure they are awesome, for it has survived so long. But ..."


Luckily I read Art of War a while before I got so wise.


message 8: by Tanuj (new)

Tanuj Solanki Riku wrote: "There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I read only after I finished the book. Highly recommended that it be read, even if the rest of the book is skipped. Here is an excerpt that will show how id..."

Thanks for sharing!


Riku Sayuj Tanuj wrote: "Thanks for sharing!"

Anytime :) Here, you can have some more (in any case I am laboriously typing all this out for my notes): These parts which Hayes talks of below were some of the most intriguing sections of the book (because they were, for a change, hard to grasp).

The philosophical tradition may have been influential on another element that we find occasionally: the intermittent snatches of dialogue or quasi-dialogue. As a developed form, the philosophical dialogue goes back to Plato, who was imitated by later philosophers, notably Aristotle (in his lost works) and Cicero. The Meditations certainly does not contain the kind of elaborate scene setting that we expect in a true dialogue, but we do find in a number of entries a kind of internal debate in which the questions or objection of an imaginary interlocutor are answered by a second,calmer voice which corrects or rebukes its errors. The first voice seems to represent Marcus’s weaker, human side; the second is the voice of philosophy.



message 10: by Rakhi (new) - added it

Rakhi Dalal Riku wrote: "There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I ..."

This was actually good! Thanks for sharing :)

But philosophy also had a more practical dimension. It was not merely a subject to write or argue about, but one that was expected to provide a “design for living”—a set of rules to live one’s life by. This was a need not met by ancient religion, which privileged ritual over doctrine and provided little in the way of moral and ethical guidelines. Nor did anyone expect it to. That was what philosophy was for.

Wish Philosophy had a more practical dimension in the present time too!


message 11: by Tanuj (new)

Tanuj Solanki Rakhi wrote: "Riku wrote: "There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I ..."

This was actually good! Thanks for sharing :)

But philosophy also had a more practical dimension. It was not merely a subject to writ..."


It does. Very much. Hegel-Marx can be very practically interpreted today.


message 12: by Rakhi (new) - added it

Rakhi Dalal Tanuj wrote: "Rakhi wrote: "Riku wrote: "There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I ..."

This was actually good! Thanks for sharing :)

But philosophy also had a more practical dimension. It was not merely a s..."


I apologize if I haven't been clearer,Tanuj. What I meant was "I wish philosophy wasn't merely restricted to academics, but more people considered it as something important for existence, hence by giving it more thought. "


message 13: by Tanuj (new)

Tanuj Solanki Rakhi wrote: "Tanuj wrote: "Rakhi wrote: "Riku wrote: "There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I ..."

This was actually good! Thanks for sharing :)

But philosophy also had a more practical dimension. It was ..."


That is true. But the problem with 'giving it more thought' is that it basically means reading philosophy - given of course that some giants have given it a LOT of thought. And philosophy is often very difficult to read. The problem with philosophy today is its sheer academic excess, that daunts the common dabbler (reader).


message 14: by Tanuj (new)

Tanuj Solanki Rakhi wrote: "Tanuj wrote: "Rakhi wrote: "Riku wrote: "There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I ..."

This was actually good! Thanks for sharing :)

But philosophy also had a more practical dimension. It was ..."


Innocent streams of thought are often crushed by the taking of big names, like I just did some time back :) And then it gets all Socratic - I meant this and so on ...


message 15: by Rakhi (new) - added it

Rakhi Dalal Tanuj wrote: "Innocent streams of thought are often crushed by the taking of big names, like I just did some time back :) And then it gets all Socratic - I meant this and so on ... "

:) I understand this Tanuj! You are right that philosophy is a difficult subject and may prove daunting for the common reader.


message 16: by PGR (new) - rated it 5 stars

PGR Nair This book is one of the two spiritual books that I value, the other being "Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna"


message 17: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj PGR wrote: "This book is one of the two spiritual books that I value, the other being "Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna""

I hope I did not offend. With classics. we can always have our fun without degrading their worth. At least, I feel so.


message 18: by Les (new) - rated it 5 stars

Les Johnson A nice review; very reasonable. But, the response shows that Marcus Aurelius read's better when you have a little background information and understanding. Then you will get more of of the text and understand why this review although reasonable, rests on false premises.



The Meditations is a treasure.


message 19: by Riku (last edited Jan 26, 2014 03:45AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Leslie wrote: "A nice review; very reasonable. But, the response shows that Marcus Aurelius read's better when you have a little background information and understanding. Then you will get more of of the text and..."

I have read quite a bit on the period and the man. In any case, I do not say that it is not a treasure. of course, it is. I enjoyed it too (notice the 4 stars) and my only premise is that the meditations are too well-worn... I don't see how more background knowledge would alter that 'premise'. But I will check out the link. Thanks.


message 20: by Les (new) - rated it 5 stars

Les Johnson Sorry the premise to which I was referring relates to where you ask where are his references etc. It seemed to me that you were, quite naturally, locating the work as a particular genre that it isn't. I did notice your four stars and your general positive regard and that's why I thought you would appreciate something that might give you another angle from where you might appreciate it even more. I realise that the way I expressed my point could easily be read as though I was saying you didn't have any background or understanding. Sorry. I should have said that I hoped that my review provided a perspective that helped to enhance one's appreciation of the text.


message 21: by Riku (last edited Jan 26, 2014 05:52AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Leslie wrote: " I should have said that I hoped that my review provided a perspective that helped to enhance one's appreciation of the text. "

It did! Thanks for linking it here. My review might show that I had taken it a bit callously. Do see message #6 here, I had tried to put it in better context and also ridiculed my own review. I am glad you joined me in that.


message 22: by Paul (new) - rated it 5 stars

Paul Bard Hi, how do you know Aurelius was an opium addict?


message 23: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Paul wrote: "Hi, how do you know Aurelius was an opium addict?"

Galen is supposed to have given opium to the emperor for quite some time. Knowing opium, the historical conjecture is that he must have been.


message 24: by Gregsamsa (new)

Gregsamsa Thank you for reminding me of this book! I remember getting some neat quotes from him back when I was studying rhetoric. I can remember so little of it, though, it seems almost dishonest to rate it.


message 25: by Paul (new) - rated it 5 stars

Paul Bard There's no evidence in Aurelius' book of addiction. I assume we should look in Galen for it then. I'm hoping it's revisionist bs.


message 26: by Adam (new) - rated it 5 stars

Adam "but where are the detailed footnotes and references?" Hahaha either one of the funniest or dumbest things I've ever read. I'll assume the former.


message 27: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Adam wrote: ""but where are the detailed footnotes and references?" Hahaha either one of the funniest or dumbest things I've ever read. I'll assume the former."

Thanks. I was only playing with the idea of these being "study notes".


message 28: by Alan (new)

Alan Riku wrote: "There is an amazing intro by Hayes which I read only after I finished the book. Highly recommended that it be read, even if the rest of the book is skipped. Here is an excerpt that will show how id..."

Both Zeno and Parmenides lived and wrote in Campania, Italy--in Elea/Velia, south of Paestum--where three Greek temples still stand.
So Stoicism, especially Zeno's paradoxical type, is a native peninsular growth--native to "Rome." Italy up to Naples (Nea-polis, new city in Greek) and Ischia was Greek, Magna Graecia, Cuma and Ischia founded 700 B.C.
I'm not sure about Roman publication, either, but I have always assumed an emperor might have an easier time publishing, even before he was emperor (about age 40). On the other hand, unlike the American President-writer, Roman emperors tended to keep their prized thinking to themselves. Why advertise your intent to kill your Imperial rival (a common aspiring emperor's thought)?


message 29: by Patricia (new) - added it

Patricia Paulsdotter Thank you so much for your rating. I am reading it right now but very slowly - I was wondering about your thoughts on his view of women? Sometimes I find myself reading awkward things in it like women being hedonistic and inferior etcetera. I don't know - but I really wanted to hear someone intelligent's thought on it? :)


message 30: by Alan (new)

Alan 'Sbeen years. Wouldn't expect much from a 2nd C Roman-man on women. Anything on his Mom. Domitia Lucilla? Or his family roots near Cordoba?
I don't seem to have it on my shelf, the Latin--though he wrote it in Greek, on campaign ( military, not political). Now, that's a leader!…though sexist? Without a doubt.
I'd be more disturbed by "Saint" Augustine, centuries later, sending the mother of his child home to Africa (from the capitol, Milan), keeping their child (I think), & waiting years to marry a 13 year old. Hmmm.
Makes me think of a neighbor, when a girl, asked by the priest what she wanted to be? She, "A priest." He, "You can't be." So she left the Church.


message 31: by Sookie (new) - added it

Sookie He is the original lifehack website, fortune cookie lines and the lines that self help folks drop every now and then. Still, its soothing to read and I keep nodding at most places. (I don't think he ever intended his notes for public use, did he?)


message 32: by Collins (new)

Collins Amenya he must have been a stonner indeed


Rohit Mathew Great review! I found it really helpful to keep in mind that this isnt a "book" in the sense that Marcus intended it for consumption by an audience. He was writing to himself more than anything and the repetition of some of the major themes reminds me of my schools day repeating multiplication tables or book quotes to myself to drill into my memory. It feels like he's constantly reminding himself of whats important in the fear that he'll forget


Rohit Mathew Also Hayes intro was fantastic to give context and disambiguate stoicism


message 35: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Rohit wrote: "Great review! I found it really helpful to keep in mind that this isnt a "book" in the sense that Marcus intended it for consumption by an audience. He was writing to himself more than anything and..."

True, easy to think of it as an author-reader interaction...


message 36: by Riku (new) - rated it 4 stars

Riku Sayuj Rohit wrote: "Also Hayes intro was fantastic to give context and disambiguate stoicism"

Will check it out. Thanks!


message 37: by Vijay (new)

Vijay Patel Riku wrote: "...I don't know how to explain. "
Watch Michael Sugrue lecture on Marcus Aurelius on You tube.


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