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I thought that one of the most remarkable things was that he gave you the feeling of breadth despite all the cuts he had to make. Maybe it's just me because I'm his little fangirl. But we definitely need to convince him to do another, this time with the myths of Theseus, Perseus and the Trojan War / the Odyssey! :D

You had me at Stephen Fry!

And more, of course. I'd give anything to see him take on the Furies and more Pan and *especially* Dionysis and a SHITLOAD of Orpheus. :) Maybe a tad of Hercules. Maybe. :)

Oh yes, Orpheus! Pan I never liked too much (just like Dionysos, which is why I welcomed those cuts).

*hard stare*

Don't start talking shit about my drunken master. Just because you can't get drunk doesn't mean he ought to be stricken from the hearts of all us hedonists. :)

I really want the mystery religion stuff, too. :)

Bwahahahaha. Well, even long before I knew I couldn't get drunk I didn't like the idiot - but I do usually enjoy Greek restaurants that bear his name. ;P

Patron of artists and drunk idiots! Of numinous religious experience and visions! Of the ONE AND ONLY THING that can make civilization work!

No alcohol, no possible reason ANYONE would be willing to get along in groups. He's the SAVIOR of all humanity!

And here's the funny thing... I don't even drink that much. I just appreciate a good savior.

Well, I consider Apollo and the muses patrons of real artists. And I have a wholly different view on Dionysos and what his "gift to mankind" actually does because most drunks do NOT get along with others (or themselves for that matter).

If you had to live in America right now, wouldn't YOU need a drink? Put yourself out of your natural shoes a minute. Know deep in your gut you need to escape this reality. Hard. Know that alcohol is available and it works for you. Now drink. Thank Dionysus. Now think about all those hot members of the sex you're most interested in who is sitting around the same bar you're patronizing. Who's drunk enough to take you on? Thank Dionysus.

See? SAVIOR.

Oh please, give me a break. America is not the only country in the world where not everything is peachy. Stop flattering America so much. Why does everything always have to be bigger and badder in the US?! Look around! There are many shitty places and things that need improving and while America is important, it's not the only place. It is a special kind of arrogance to think that ONLY in America things are oh so bad and ONLY in America people are suffering from an idiot (or that ONLY the American idiot is this special kind of idiot and this dangerous) in charge and ONLY in America people are dying (no matter how) and ONLY in America there is corruption and dissatisfaction etc pp. Pfffft!

As for getting a drunk to have sex with you - you really wanna go down that lane? How many get raped because of alcohol? How man beat people half to death (spouses even) because they don't have themselves under control when drunk (and only barely when sober)?! Thank you, Dionysos, I guess.

I may be slightly unwelcome, but having seen this on my feed I feel the need to interject:

In ancient Greece, wine (the most commonly consumed alcoholic beverage) was not a tool with which to become drunk and disorderly. That's not at all what the cult of Dionysus was about; it wasn't about getting sloshed because it's fun. In ancient Greece (and a lot of other ancient cultures) wine was symbolic of truces, family, victory, and social status, and drinking wine was thought of as a way to bring a person closer to their deities (wine has an important standing across religions; Jesus turned water into wine). Wine became popular in the Hellenic peninsula as a status symbol: those who drank wine were wealthy and "cultured". That's far from the attitude that we have today, though it's similar to tobacco consumption, and how in the days of yore it was thought of as a healthy habit, and further back, as a religious practice.

Dionysus was far from the patron of "drunken idiots", but rather a deity with whom people connected via alcohol. The cult of Dionysus also championed a gentle sort of anarchy: it was about the freeing of a person's soul and using wine and ritual to contact the higher powers. He was considered a protector of "outcasts" - the chaotic and dangerous and theatrical. His cult wasn't about the sesh, but meant almost as a communal safe space for society's rejects, hence why he was often styled as foreign-looking, and therefore not the epitome of the "perfect Greek".

Greece was never an excessively wasteful society and nor were the Greeks ever known to be drunks - some Greek scholars believed that minors shouldn't be drinking alcohol at all. Wine meant much, much more to them than it does to us today.

*lol* Have you read the myths about Dionysos? Almost all of those deal with what he and his followers did after too much wine. They even were quite impertinent guests which sometimes caused some problems because of Zeus' laws of hospitality (which go both ways). The gods, too, thought he would be "more fun" than Demeter which can be one explanation why she "left" Olympus and stepped down so there was room for Dionysos in the first place.

I'm not saying that wine is bad in general but Dionysos is not exactly the god of all that behave correctly all the time.

That doesn't mean that he might have supported rape under the influence of alcohol but the fact is that drunkenness has always been the excuse for bad behaviour - in ancient times as well as nowadays. The fact that even the Catholic Church uses wine as the Blood of Christ doesn't make that any more or less legitimate.

Trish wrote: "*lol* Have you read the myths about Dionysos? Almost all of those deal with what he and his followers did after too much wine. They even were quite impertinent guests which sometimes caused some pr..."

I understand what you're saying, but rather than just looking at what the myth says on paper, you have to look at it contextually. It's not really enough to read the myth and then that's that. Looking at who exactly was drawn into the cults of Dionysus, and also what the stance was on alcohol in general (again, excess in any way was not widely accepted in Greece and they were not a wasteful people, and so drunkenness was not considered something aspirational) is essential.

The gods were the *only* resource available to the Greeks to understand the world around them. It was the way that society's cliques formed: what cult are you in? Who do you worship? Dionysus's followers were sort of the "punks" of the time; it was rebellious and anarchist to be a follower to Dionysus, in the way it was once really cool to be a KISS groupie even after that dude bit the head off a live rat (was it a rat?) on stage. Dionysus's followers were a part of his cult for far bigger reasons that just enjoying alcohol. It was a lifestyle, and far more nuanced that simply a desire to drink.

I have read the myths, and that's fine, but working out where it fits in with the reality of what was happening in Greece at the time is also extremely important.

The way Bradley phrased his response to you before was totally inappropriate, but alcohol is not evil and nor is it the reason why rapes and assaults happen. Rapes and assaults cannot be excused with alcohol and it is missing the point to say that *alcohol* is the reason why these crimes happen. Rapes and assaults happen because of social structures that make people feel entitled to commit those crimes. I am a smoker (not just of tobacco) and I like to party VERY hard, but I have never ever even come close to committing that kind of crime against anybody. It would never even cross my mind, even subconsciously. Again, it has to be looked at in context.

I think you're both right, and I was being ironic before, but I am more on your side in this, Kiki. They were the punks and the outcasts and the place where all those who couldn't fit in could go to. But beyond that, even, they were the revengers, too. The furies came to the call of the Dionysians. It was more often the women who would get drunk and rip men to shreds in an extasy after a man did something evil, usually a family blood crime. It was the place the hopeless could pray to for release and justice when all other methods had failed. And let's face it... Apollo fails. A lot.

As for spirituality, it was the center of the numinous. That which cannot be explained or described. It was the feeling of something grand right out of our reach. And therefore it was also the focus for idealism.

I believe Kiki just brought that up. Civilization and agreements, hospitality and culture. Not just revelry.

I really was being ironic and laughing about how moderns might perceive it in my comment... mostly because I'm a big and (real) fan of Dionysus. I'm more of a fan of Orpheus, however, but that's just because he has a more fun and crazy story. :)

I haven't only read the myths, I'm quite capable of forming a coherent thought and drawing intelligent conclusions, thank you. But the fact is that consuming too much alcohol or drugs or whatever substance of the kind is NOT a good thing, even if you try justifying the consumption with a divine purpose or "spiritual experience". I never said that all followers of Dionysos were people getting drunk and then raping other people, we were discussing the god Dionysos himself.
There is nothing spiritual about getting drunk or high. Maybe some people hallucinate while under the influence (though drunks are usually different from people who are high), but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. It's a way to escape reality that usually makes reality for everyone else worse (since most drunks don't have themselves under control). Not to mention that reality doens't go away but rather comes back with a vengeance (leading to so many alcoholics) or you spiral out of control and fry what is left of your brain.
Even is you reign yourself in and only do it moderately, there is nothing spiritual about it. It's a chemical reaction in your body. No expansion of mind, just a chemically induced state that might feel good at the time. *lol*
This argument is like what I hear from most religious people about their invisible friend in the sky. If it makes you feel better to believe in trancedial experiences or some such stuff, fine, but don't try to bully others into agreeing with you by saying that only you have seen the light (so to speak) and the ones counter-arguing haven't so they cannot understand because that is like a Catholic priest getting his little lambs in position. I'm not a sheep so it won't work.
So keep drinking your wine (I wasn't only talking about it in excess as I've mentioned before) and telling yourself that it will lead you to a higher plane but leave me out of it. The thing is that I will not stop anyone from wanting to feel better in any way, I just don't like people trying to sell it as something it's not. Especially since you see it going wrong left and right.

great review bradley xx

I couldn’t have loved this book more! Excellent!

Right? But then, I would have loved it just to listen to Fry. :)

I’ve always loved Stephen Fry because of his charm and down-to-earth demeanor. So happy to hear this is good because I cannot wait to dive in!

I'm looking forward to reading book 2! Catch up! :)

I have read Book 2, and I must say, it is one of the best books I've ever read. I really hope you like it!

Hey! That's great to hear! :)

I do agree, although his quick introductions to a whole slew of names does sometimes mean I have to go back a couple of chapters to remember who birthed which deity. Worth taking notes just to avoid the headache. :)

Oh! Fortunately, the internet is full of great and colorful family trees for the Greeks! :) You can cheat and have a huge chart already ready for you. :) :)

Stephen Fry could read the ingredients off of a shampoo bottle and I'd listen all night, the man has a voice like silk. I totally have a man crush and I'm not ashamed to admit it!

You're in good company then. I admit it, too! )

Jo wrote: "Stephen Fry could read the ingredients off of a shampoo bottle and I'd listen all night, the man has a voice like silk. I totally have a man crush and I'm not ashamed to admit it!"

I absolutely 1000% agree and am glad I'm not alone. *lol*

Confession, I make my children watch pocoyo daily on cbbc just to hear him narrate lol

Ah, the things we do... lol :)