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Riku Sayuj's Reviews > The Waste Land and Other Poems
The Waste Land and Other Poems
by
The Unreal Wastelands & Labyrinths - What Memory Keeps and Throws Away; An Exercise in Recollection: in flashes and distortions.
____________________________
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Chimes follow the Fire Sermon:
A rat crept softly through the vegetation;
departed. A cold blast at the back, So rudely forc'd, like Philomela.
It was Tiresias', it was he who doomed all men,
throbbing between two lives, knowing which?
Et O ces voix d'enfants, chantant dans la coupole!
Excuse my demotic French!
****
Let us go then, him (that carbuncular young man), and you -
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
You may come or go, but speak not
of Michelangelo.
When there is not solitude even in the Mountains,
When even the sound of water could dry your thirst,
Then you can lift your hands and sing of dead pine trees.
Have you yet been led,
through paths of insidious intent,
through every tedious argument,
To that overwhelming question?
****
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Sweet Thames, sweating oil and tar,
Sweet Thames, run on softly till I end my song,
for I speak not loud or long,
for I speak not clear or clean,
for I speak in the hoarse whispers of the last man,
for it was I who murdered you,
and Ganga, right under the nose, of mighty Himavant!
You who were living is now dead.
We who were living are now dying -
With a little patience!
Break The Bough, and hang yourself from it,
Sweeney, Prufrock, The Fisher King and the sterile others,
all will follow first,
like corpses etherised on well-lit tables.
****
Remember me, me - Tiresias, once more, for we are all him,
yet not.
The present will always look at the mirror,
and see only a Wasteland,
The Past is always the heavenly spring,
running dry now.
Perspective,
Thy name is Poetry.
****
London Bridge is falling down falling down falling down
These fragments you have shored against my ruins.
Why is it impossible to say just what I mean!
Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.
****
____________________________
____________________________
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
by
The Unreal Wastelands & Labyrinths - What Memory Keeps and Throws Away; An Exercise in Recollection: in flashes and distortions.
____________________________
You! Hypocrite lecteur! � mon semblable, - mon frère!
____________________________
Chimes follow the Fire Sermon:
A rat crept softly through the vegetation;
departed. A cold blast at the back, So rudely forc'd, like Philomela.
It was Tiresias', it was he who doomed all men,
throbbing between two lives, knowing which?
Et O ces voix d'enfants, chantant dans la coupole!
Excuse my demotic French!
****
Let us go then, him (that carbuncular young man), and you -
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
You may come or go, but speak not
of Michelangelo.
When there is not solitude even in the Mountains,
When even the sound of water could dry your thirst,
Then you can lift your hands and sing of dead pine trees.
Have you yet been led,
through paths of insidious intent,
through every tedious argument,
To that overwhelming question?
****
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Sweet Thames, sweating oil and tar,
Sweet Thames, run on softly till I end my song,
for I speak not loud or long,
for I speak not clear or clean,
for I speak in the hoarse whispers of the last man,
for it was I who murdered you,
and Ganga, right under the nose, of mighty Himavant!
You who were living is now dead.
We who were living are now dying -
With a little patience!
Break The Bough, and hang yourself from it,
Sweeney, Prufrock, The Fisher King and the sterile others,
all will follow first,
like corpses etherised on well-lit tables.
****
Remember me, me - Tiresias, once more, for we are all him,
yet not.
The present will always look at the mirror,
and see only a Wasteland,
The Past is always the heavenly spring,
running dry now.
Perspective,
Thy name is Poetry.
****
London Bridge is falling down falling down falling down
These fragments you have shored against my ruins.
Why is it impossible to say just what I mean!
Datta. Dayadhvam. Damyata.
shantih shantih shantih
****
____________________________
You! Hypocrite reader, my likeness, my brother!
____________________________
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
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The Waste Land and Other Poems.
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Reading Progress
December 1, 2011
– Shelved
November 15, 2012
–
Started Reading
November 17, 2012
–
Finished Reading
December 22, 2013
– Shelved as:
poetry
December 22, 2013
– Shelved as:
r-r-rs
October 16, 2014
– Shelved as:
nobel-winners
Comments Showing 1-45 of 45 (45 new)
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Riku
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rated it 5 stars
Nov 18, 2012 04:11AM
not exactly mocking, just elbow-poking.
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I was never able, with TS Eliot, to get over the fact he was a thoroughly nasty, racist, facist, anti-semitic individual. If I read someone, like Roald Dahl and Oscar Wilde, before I discover they hold very unpleasant beliefs, I can continue to like their work, but if I know about them first, then I even though I realise the work is 'quality', I just can't enjoy it.
Petra X wrote: "I was never able, with TS Eliot, to get over the fact he was a thoroughly nasty, racist, facist, anti-semitic individual. If I read someone, like Roald Dahl and Oscar Wilde, before I discover they ..."Ah, but he pioneered "New Criticism" which mandates that an artist's work has to be judged in isolation from his character, historic background etc...
I do think Eliot isn't all perfect. However I am not sure he's as bad as some articles or biographies make him out to be. I wouldn't use the word 'thoroughly' here. What I suggest is gaining a variety of perspectives on the issue -- and how bad Eliot was is a contentious one -- read up some essays in journals particularly. And also I do think it is important to read Eliot's views himself... I am not sure, on reading say,Notes Towards the Definition of a Culture, that it's 'thoroughly racist'.... perhaps not very fair re religion. I tend to think of such things as a matter of parochiality -- temporal and cultural -- and sometimes clever individuals don't get past these 'spots of mediocrity'. I bet some of our beliefs will look pretty stupid some years on -- we just don't know it! Riku I think it is mocking, and I think you lack Mr. Eliot's precision. I do think that he is a very, very fine poet (this despite whatever one's view of his politics -- he used language very well). If it is a post-colonial gripe it has less to do with his diction than perhaps, an uncritical use of the Upanishads. I think ol Spivak wrote an article on this, and you can dig it out if you are truly enraged by Eliot's cultural 'insensitivity' or whatever. But I think that generally Eliot does say what he means quite clearly.
I don't think NC says that a work 'has to be judged in isolation of...'. It just makes a distinction between the text and its context (the text's context). NC insists that one can be very good in terms of style and the other may be bad, the main thing is recognizing this division and giving each thing its credit. In no way did it say you were not allowed to dislike a book if you did not agree with its author's views, even if it were well-written
Lorraine wrote: "Riku I think it is mocking, and I think you lack Mr. Eliot's precision. I do think that he is a very, very fine poet (this despite whatever one's view of his politics -- he used language very well). If it is a post-colonial gripe it has less to do with his diction than perhaps, an uncritical use of the Upanishads. I think ol Spivak wrote an article on this, and you can dig it out if you are truly enraged by Eliot's cultural 'insensitivity' or whatever. But I think that generally Eliot does say what he means quite clearly. "Oh, but I was not poking at the "cultural insensitivity" at all. I was just having fun with stylistic aspects of the poetry. In fact, I am always immodestly happy to see hints of Hindu wisdom being adopted by great artists.
It is more like the reaction Ezra Pound had to Eliot - coming out with a mockery of an imitation, just to showcase how awesome the original is.
You did notice my star rating, right? I don't dole them out unless I am hopelessly in love.
Lorraine wrote: " I bet some of our beliefs will look pretty stupid some years on -- we just don't know it!"Amen to that
Lorraine wrote: "I don't think NC says that a work 'has to be judged in isolation of...'. It just makes a distinction between the text and its context (the text's context). NC insists that one can be very good in t..."NC just asks to place every work squarely in its own context. Shed the baggage and appreciate the work in isolation. I am no expert, this is just my impression on NC from the essays that accompanied this book.
Lorraine wrote: "But I think that generally Eliot does say what he means quite clearly. "
It is a lament from Prufrock... I felt it was so beautifully ironical.
Riku, Maybe I told you that my Ph.D. advisor was the Eliot scholar (and Donne and Shakespeare) Leonard Unger, the best friend of Saul Bellow at the U Minnesota in the 50s. (I was there in the late 60s.) Unger and Bellow once wrote, over lunch at the U MN Faculty club, a translation of the first four lines of the Wasteland--into Yiddish.
Alan wrote: "Riku, Maybe I told you that my Ph.D. advisor was the Eliot scholar (and Donne and Shakespeare) Leonard Unger, the best friend of Saul Bellow at the U Minnesota in the 50s. (I was there in the late..."Sounds like a dream...!
Alan wrote: "Riku, Maybe I told you that my Ph.D. advisor was the Eliot scholar (and Donne and Shakespeare) Leonard Unger, the best friend of Saul Bellow at the U Minnesota in the 50s. (I was there in the late..."Unfortunately, none of Unger's works seem to be available except in book format...
all the titles sound intriguing:
Moments and Patterns; Eliot's compound ghost : influence and confluence etc...
Riku wrote: "Lorraine wrote: "But I think that generally Eliot does say what he means quite clearly. "
It is a lament from Prufrock... I felt it was so beautifully ironical."
please, as if I don't know the prufrock <_< tsk. in your context it seems to imply that eliot CAN'T be clear. it is ironic in prufrock because he does get close to saying just what he means
Lorraine wrote: "Riku wrote: "Lorraine wrote: "But I think that generally Eliot does say what he means quite clearly. "
It is a lament from Prufrock... I felt it was so beautifully ironical."
please, as if I don..."
I took it as a universal lament...
A brilliant obit: I am currently re-reading Eliot's notes. Is it just me, or are they as much of a masterpiece as the poem itself?
I wonder how many of Eliot's western readers get the true significance of the last passage (thunder said) and how it changes the meaning of the entire poem. Lorraine, have you explored the original mythical story that Eliot is drawing on here? Would love to hear your thoughts.
The Shakespearian version, in case you haven't seen it:To be, or not to be; that is the bare bodkin
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would fardels bear, till Birnam Wood do come to Dunsinane,
But that the fear of something after death
Murders the innocent sleep,
Great nature’s second course,
And makes us rather sling the arrows of outrageous fortune
Than fly to others that we know not of.
There’s the respect must give us pause:
Wake Duncan with thy knocking! I would thou couldst;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The law’s delay, and the quietus which his pangs might take,
In the dead waste and middle of the night, when churchyards yawn
In customary suits of solemn black,
But that the undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveler returns,
Breathes forth contagion on the world,
And thus the native hue of resolution, like the poor cat i� the adage,
Is sicklied o’er with care,
And all the clouds that lowered o’er our housetops,
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.
’Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.
But soft you, the fair Ophelia: Ope not thy ponderous and marble jaws,
But get thee to a nunnery—go!
Manny wrote: "The Shakespearian version, in case you haven't seen it:To be, or not to be; that is the bare bodkin That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would fardels bear, till Birnam Wood do come to Du..."
Ah, but I have!
Shakespeare had it coming too, so no roll-eyes.
By the way, the version above (mine) is a morning-after pastiche, unfortunately diluted. Not as strong as the one you brewed.
Mark Twain did a good job, didn't he? Yours is too respectful :)
Manny wrote: "Mark Twain did a good job, didn't he? Yours is too respectful :)"Wish he had taken the time to elaborate on Huck's thoughts during the whole rigmarole. :(
A proper satire would be way beyond me and my memory skills.
[The experiment was to stitch together the meaning of Eliot's poetry from remembered fragments (after a night's sleep) without consulting any printed word and without diverging too far - I am just getting a feel on what Homer and co must have felt, back in the Oral days.]
wendy cope has the best wasteland take ever. Manny that is superb.
Lorraine wrote: "wendy cope has the best wasteland take ever. Manny that is superb."How awesome was that! Thank you for the link!
No water. Dry rocks and dry throats,
Then thunder, a shower of quotes
From the Sanskrit and Dante.
Da. Damyata. Shantih.
I hope you'll make sense of the notes.
Riku wrote: "Alan wrote: "Riku, Maybe I told you that my Ph.D. advisor was the Eliot scholar (and Donne and Shakespeare) Leonard Unger, the best friend of Saul Bellow at the U Minnesota in the 50s. (I was ther..."I'll look, quote you a few passages since I've got a couple of 'em somewhere--possibly at my wife's 3200 sq foot art studio in Fall River, to which I emptied my office.
You can see it at:
Alan wrote: "Riku wrote: "Alan wrote: "Riku, Maybe I told you that my Ph.D. advisor was the Eliot scholar (and Donne and Shakespeare) Leonard Unger, the best friend of Saul Bellow at the U Minnesota in the 50s..."There is only so much envy you should spread on any given day, Sir.
Lorraine wrote: "wendy cope has the best wasteland take ever. Manny that is superb."But Cope's are Limerick lite, since it is a sexual, Catholic form. The real ones are so hilarious because they contravene both sex and religion--often by implication. (I've never written a good one, because I was not raised Catholic--not to mention lack of skill.)
Riku wrote: "Manny wrote: "Mark Twain did a good job, didn't he? Yours is too respectful :)"Wish he had taken the time to elaborate on Huck's thoughts during the whole rigmarole. :("
My impression was that Huck just took it at face value. He knows nothing about Shakespeare and doesn't even understand what the Duke is saying, though I get the feeling that he still kind of likes the sound of some of the individual phrases.
Lorraine wrote: "I do think Eliot isn't all perfect. However I am not sure he's as bad as some articles or biographies make him out to be. I wouldn't use the word 'thoroughly' here. What I suggest is gaining a vari..."You might not think "thoroughly" is an appropriate adjective and that's fine, it is an 'opinion' word after all, but I used the word because that is what I think. Perhaps you disagree with all the articles and biographies that make him out to be so thoroughly nasty too, again fine. I don't know how anyone could get around TS Eliot's line than Jews were lower than rats though. And that is just one line alone.
Manny wrote: "My impression was that Huck just took it at face value. He knows nothing about Shakespeare and doesn't even understand what the Duke is saying, though I get the feeling that he still kind of likes the sound of some of the individual phrases. "New Project Alert:
Re-write all classics in stream-of-consciousness mode.
You're sure Joyce hasn't already done that?
it's because Joyce did that that Beckett took to writing like he did, and the 'post-modernist' generation became a bit down on themselves.
Riku wrote: "Alan wrote: "Riku wrote: "Alan wrote: "Riku, Maybe I told you that my Ph.D. advisor was the Eliot scholar (and Donne and Shakespeare) Leonard Unger, the best friend of Saul Bellow at the U Minneso..."You are too kind--and amusing. Let me tell you, if you followed my career, you would not envy. Flunked by an old man on drugs who thought he was Alexander Pope, fired at my first two jobs. And yet, looking back, it's all a LOT of fun!
Lorraine wrote: "wendy cope has the best wasteland take ever. Manny that is superb."I love Wendy Cope's Eliot! Almost as good as Mark Twain's Shakespeare :)
Manny wrote: "I love Wendy Cope's Eliot! Almost as good as Mark Twain's Shakespeare :) "The difference being that Cope is talking about Eliot, while Twain is living it. Both are fun, of course.
Lorraine wrote: "it's because Joyce did that that Beckett took to writing like he did, and the 'post-modernist' generation became a bit down on themselves."I smell Bloom in the room!
Riku wrote: "Lorraine wrote: "wendy cope has the best wasteland take ever. Manny that i..."Actually, Yeats's "take" was probably even better, though of course prejudiced. He said Eliot (and others) were satirists..though he made it better than that.
Alan -- I don't think I've read the Yeats. At very least he would be entertaining :P he's an odd one, even among poets... to say the least. any recommendations for where to read a take?
Lorraine wrote: "Alan -- I don't think I've read the Yeats. At very least he would be entertaining :P he's an odd one, even among poets... to say the least. any recommendations for where to read a take?"Might be interesting (Yeats and Eliot) -
Lorraine wrote: "Alan -- I don't think I've read the Yeats. At very least he would be entertaining :P he's an odd one, even among poets... to say the least. any recommendations for where to read a take?"Thanks for your interest, and I'm embarrassed to say that I heard WBYeats's comments on Eliot--I didn't read them, though I've plowed through his quasi-mystical "A Vision." Of course, I've read, and memorized an hour of his poems--easy to remember, among the easiest of any in English. Chiseled. Carved. "Whether man dies in his bed / Or the rifle knock him dead,/ A brief parting from those dear / Is the worst man has to fear." Did you know he married his wife partly because she did "automatic writing," supposedly spirit-dictated? And his son, in the late 70s (?) speaking in the Berkshires, recounted his father shooing him from the room in order to write aloud.
The good thing is: maybe Yeats's spoken comments on Eliot are available online? And it's possible they're in his collected prose and criticism. I think I may have seen them in print long after I heard them
I dislike reading online. however I'll keep an eye out for prose/criticism on sale. I know Yeats had that whole fascination with Gonne and if I'm not wrong wanted to marry her daughter (how creepy is THAT!). I don't know how relevant this is, but in 2009 when I was in Dublin the library there had some exhibition on Yeats and we could see all his hand-written work.... and buy some merch. Unfortunately I don't remember much except that his writing was ok... not so much towards the illegible side. That stuff on Eliot and Yeats (Riku) looks fascinating. Maybe it's time to muck around the journals (probably unwise, given that I have 7 classes to manage this sem) and read. Interestingly Joyce had much trouble -- and debt -- to Yeats too, but this is much much more documented than Eliot/Yeats.
Lorraine wrote: "I dislike reading online. however I'll keep an eye out for prose/criticism on sale. I know Yeats had that whole fascination with Gonne and if I'm not wrong wanted to marry her daughter (how creepy ..."I think Yeats has a permanent exhibit in the museum next to the National Assembly or whatever it's called--Leinster House. Oh, guess that "museum" is in fact the National Library. Closer than the Library of Congress is to Congress--or the Folger.
Seven classes? Most I did was five, and I found I always shortchanged the last two if they were all on the same day--say, once a week.
I'm not in a program (yet). If you have any advice for getting into a supremely-supremely competitive program I need it. But I'm teaching in the meantime, and it's hard, even though it's still tertiary. You do mean America right -- National Library. I'm not American, but applying to American and Canadian unis for my (hopefully last!) degree
Lorraine wrote: "I'm not in a program (yet). If you have any advice for getting into a supremely-supremely competitive program I need it. But I'm teaching in the meantime, and it's hard, even though it's still tert..."I was comparing the closeness of the Irish National Library, right next to their Parliament (Leinster House) to the half mile or so between the US Congress and the Library of Congress.
I know nothing of current admissions, though universities tend to plod along as always. My own key to such admissions was attendance at what was then probably the best college in the US, Amherst, which can boast affiliation with the only two great poets this country has produced--Frost and Dickinson (though an attenuated one with her--still many of her poems influenced by the public lectures given by, say, the geologist president of the college).
I will say this: competitive programs are really over-rated now, because there are learned professors everywhere. I'm an example; I taught for 36 years in Massachusetts community colleges, because I wanted to live here. My publications suffered because learned journals actually judge submissions by return address. But even so, my Ph.D. was acquired by Regensberg, and my Shakespeare articles have found their way into hundreds of university libraries around the world (where they are doubtless abandoned by the non-library readers now in attendance). But all good wishes for your career.
nothing to do with the actual rank of the uni. but I am working in a bit of a weird area and I want to get into one of those programs because I badly wanna work with a prof there -- and he isn't going to move! Have spoken to him and we have worked together, but he is not on admissions and he says that admissions is a bit of a crapshoot anyway. And I know about the publications (ditto horrid critics who get into journals because they're at more prestigious institutions). >_<
Lorraine wrote: "nothing to do with the actual rank of the uni. but I am working in a bit of a weird area and I want to get into one of those programs because I badly wanna work with a prof there -- and he isn't go..."If you're already in touch with a prof you want to work with, you know far more about current trends and patterns (which sound too familiar--the crapshoot) than I. Again, good fortune.
Shalini wrote: "phew. tough review to read."not really a review in any case :)
