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Cecily's Reviews > Life Isn't Binary: On Being Both, Beyond, and In-Between

Life Isn't Binary by Meg-John Barker
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it was amazing
bookshelves: sexuality-gender-lgbtqi, favourites, self-improvement

Cast aside flat black and white binaries.
See textured landscapes of many colours.
Be kind.


(.)

Labels (seem to) make life easier, and binary ones even more so.
We fall into using them, unthinkingly and often unquestioningly.
But there are way more grey areas than black and white ones.
Binaries constrain. Even two-dimensional spectrums do.
And they rarely reflect the world as it is.

This book starts with the obvious topics of sexualities (beyond gay/straight) and genders (beyond female/male). Subsequent chapters extend non-binary ideas about both/and (rather than either/or, let alone the divisive, distancing us/them) to:
� Relationships
� Bodies
� Emotions
� Thinking
It occasionally draws on Buddhist mindfulness, queer theory, and Paganism, which might have put me off a little had I known in advance, but, it’s all very chatty, readable, relatable, and chunked, so it’s easy to dip in and out.

This book is for you. Yes, YOU

Even if you think LGBTQI+ is “political correctness gone mad�, that gender-fluidity is a faddish label for something that doesn’t exist, or that none of this is relevant to you, you’ll discover that non-binary thinking is liberating and practical, less judgemental and less confrontational.

I read this to better understand my non-binary genderfulid twenty-something, and I think I do. The huge and unexpected bonus is how much better I understand myself, a straight white cisgender woman.


Image: Marbling hands (Source.)
Short video of body marbling

In between the binaries

The Ancient Greeks had . We often settle for loving - or not - and many other binaries, all of which are covered, including:

Abled/disabled, black/white, natural/unnatural, normal/abnormal, stupid/clever, educated/ignorant, nature/nurture, old/young, urban/rural, poor/rich, mad/sane, left/right (Conservative/Labour or Brexit/remain or GOP/Democrat), male/female, cis/trans, binary/non-binary, gay/straight, coupled/single, monogamous/non-monogamous, partner/friend, sexual/platonic, ugly/pretty, good/bad, happy/sad, right/wrong, mind/body, emotional/rational, pleasure/pain, gain/loss, praise/blame, fame/disgrace...

Sometimes binaries are coupled in explicitly judgemental ways: gay = unnatural and therefore wrong, for example. But normal, natural, and widespread doesn’t necessarily correlate with good: genius and altruism are abnormal and not widespread, but clearly good, and medicine is widespread but unnatural.

So much of what we read and watch about trans people frames their story as a journey from one binary gender all the way to the opposite one, but that's not necessarily the case. Some trans people are closer to non-binary or genderfluid, and genital dysphoria is not always a major component of a person’s gender dysphoria. We’re in a strange, paradoxical time when many are more open to non-binary ideas of gender just as ultrasound (sonograms) and Instagram make gender reveals the first and primary thing we know about an unborn baby. But gender is bio psycho social construct (identity, role, expression) - see Sally Hines� excellent Is Gender Fluid? My review is HERE.


(.)

There are some binaries we readily accept are not really binary. For example, there are more colours and races that black and white, and a near infinite number of blendings (race isn’t a biological category anyway). Most people accept that bisexuality exists, even if they tend judge bi people on their current relationship, so push them towards gay or straight.

Other binaries are ones that change during a life: young to old, obviously, but some people start abled and become disabled. Happiness, education, wealth, and class can change, too. More controversially, the authors demonstrate that some people change sexuality, or evolve to acknowledge attraction in different ways, which is a challenge to the “born that way� gay rights argument.

Binaries can be harmful even to those in the privileged majority: trapping them there, think there is no alternative, or that it’s too risky.

Some binaries are so institutionally embedded they’re hard to break: the two-party system is not working well in the UK or US at present, but it’s difficult for centrist or alternative parties to flourish, and easy for deliberately divisive rhetoric to entrench the binary division.

Too many labels?

I’ve sometimes wondered why people want so many labels to choose between (there are multiple types of asexuality alone for example).

My kid explained that for them and their queer (the word is reclaimed, as an umbrella term) friends it’s about community: safe spaces, shared experiences, representation, support, and belonging. The same point is made here. Being (gender) non-conforming or eccentric is not the same, and not necessarily sufficient.

Singular “they�

Both authors prefer “they� as a personal pronoun. MJ says “I experience myself as pretty plural�.

I explain this in detail in my review of A Quick & Easy Guide to They/Them Pronouns by Archie Bongiovanni and Tristan Jimerson, HERE.

Key lessons

� Consider both/and, rather than either/or.
� See landscapes, not binary good/bad.
� Embrace uncertainty, in yourself and the world around.
� Debate isn’t inherently good: beware false equivalency, giving legitimacy to false beliefs to be “fair�.
� Learn from conflict.


Image: Rabbit God versus Duck God, by Paul Noth

Binary thinking is inaccurate and limiting. It’s clearly damaging for oppressed minorities who don’t fit, but those who seem to be privileged can be trapped, too.

� Be kind, don’t judge, and be open to tangential outcomes and compromises.
� Informed consent of those directly affected is what matters.
� Context is all.

For examples of the power and dangers of false binaries and false equivalents used for political ends, see Steven Pool's excellent Unspeak: How Words Become Weapons, HERE.

Categorising

Appropriately, this book does not fit a single, binary label.
� It is both self-help and a textbook.
� It is both a treatise and a dual autobiography.
� And both a mirror and a window.


Image: “Mirror or window?� Shanghai, China, by patrizia zanetti (.)

A parable

This Taoist parable is included to demonstrate why it's futile and unhelpful to view everything in terms of good and bad:

The situation... is like that of the wise Chinese farmer whose horse ran off. When his neighbour came to console him the farmer said, "Who knows what's good or bad?"

When his horse returned the next day with a herd of horses following her, the foolish neighbour came to congratulate him on his good fortune. "Who knows what's good or bad?" said the farmer.

Then, when the farmer's son broke his leg trying to ride one of the new horses, the foolish neighbour came to console him again. "Who knows what's good or bad?" said the farmer.

When the army passed through, conscripting men for the war, they passed over the farmer's son because of his broken leg. When the foolish man came to congratulate the farmer that his son would be spared, again the farmer said, "Who knows what's good or bad?"

When do we expect the story to end?
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Reading Progress

June 23, 2019 – Shelved
June 23, 2019 – Shelved as: sexuality-gender-lgbtqi
September 19, 2019 – Shelved as: to-read
September 20, 2019 – Started Reading
September 20, 2019 –
page 54
22.78% "I like the premise of seeing life in full colour, beyond the obvious binaries of female/male, gay/straight, and beyond good/bad, abled/disabled, black/white, natural/unnatural, left/right, nature/nurture.
I thought I was fairly well-informed, but after the first of six personal and very readable chapters, my mind is buzzing: challenged, enthused, and curious.
Sexuality is not a spectrum, it’s a landscape..."
September 27, 2019 –
page 237
100.0% "Consider both/and, rather than either/or, let alone us/them.
See landscapes, not binary good/bad.
Embrace uncertainty, in yourself and the world around.
Sexuality and gender feature strongly, but this is about much, much more, and relevant to straight white cisgender people like me, too.
Brilliant.
Review to come."
September 29, 2019 – Shelved as: favourites
September 29, 2019 – Shelved as: self-improvement
September 29, 2019 – Finished Reading

Comments Showing 1-31 of 31 (31 new)

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message 1: by Vicky (new)

Vicky "phenkos" Wonderful review, Cecily!


Cecily Vicky wrote: "Wonderful review, Cecily!"

Thanks, Vicky. It was an extraordinarily thought-provoking book, but ever so readable, too. Life-changing for some, I'm sure (and not far off for me).


reading is my hustle our library doesn't have any copies of this but i plan to have our local bookstore order a copy for me to purchase. so glad you reviewed this, cecily!


message 4: by Lyn (new)

Lyn great review Cecily


Cecily Lyn wrote: "great review Cecily"

Thanks, Lyn. I hope I provided a glimpse of how much there is to think about.


Cecily Elizabeth wrote: "our library doesn't have any copies of this but i plan to have our local bookstore order a copy for me to purchase. so glad you reviewed this, cecily!"

I'm so glad you want to read it. I look forward to discovering what you think, in due course.

It was only published 3 or 4 months ago, and probably not to much fanfare, so it's no surprise the library doesn't have it yet.


message 7: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo Abled/disabled, black/white, natural/unnatural, normal/abnormal, stupid/clever, educated/ignorant, nature/nurture, old/young, urban/rural, poor/rich, mad/sane, left/right (Conservative/Labour or Brexit/remain or GOP/Democrat), male/female, cis/trans, binary/non-binary, gay/straight, coupled/single, monogamous/non-monogamous, partner/friend, sexual/platonic, ugly/pretty, good/bad, happy/sad, right/wrong, mind/body, emotional/rational, pleasure/pain, gain/loss, praise/blame, fame/disgrace...

...Informed/uninformed. Most of us fall somewhere in between! I always feel like I've learnt something reading your reviews, this one included. I am appreciative of your thoughtfulness in this review, and its contextualizing with personal experiences.

My thought is that the concept of non-binary, isn't new? Since time immemorial, I think we have always known that there were gradations in how we live, and love, and grow. What's new is in how much more openly we express it now compared to before. As you say, we live in strange, paradoxical times (how apt that expression). I think the population is by and large already aware of non-binaries across all swaths of life and living, and books like these encourage us to start conversations. (Talking to ourselves can only further the conversation that much!) And conversations create awareness, and with awareness, hopefully inclusive action.

But action is where we tend to flail about, not knowing how to land in a practical solution that includes everyone. Is it possible? I don't really know, it's evolving. Fluid, to borrow a word. I want to read books that come with ideas and proposed solutions, which should be a natural successor to books about awareness and mindfulness? As in, after learning the key lessons, now what do we do? What to do about bathrooms, official photo IDs, census and all the things that require one to pick either/or?

Everything needs a starting point, so I guess the default is to start with two extreme ends - binary - and fill the gap incrementally from there. I'm a big proponent of incremental changes. It's less... shocking to the system, and small progressive changes can be more readily absorbed (with more permanence) than big polarizing ones.

As for “political correctness gone mad�, and its cousin, identity politics... Yeah. I am wary of it. It's become a monolith in itself. An "either-you're-with-us-or-you're-with-them". There doesn't appear to be a "both/and" option.


Cecily Alfred wrote: "My thought is that the concept of non-binary, isn't new?..."

No, not at all. However non-binary ideas of sexuality and gender have been largely overlooked in European and non-native north American culture until recently. And as those ideas are being discussed, political discourse is becoming more binary. Another paradox.

As I hope I've shown, this book is about far more than sexuality and gender, even though they are the starting points.

Alfred wrote: "... But action is where we tend to flail about..."

Good point. This book is strong on personal action and growth, including time-out sections for reflection and exercises. It touches on most of the specific controversies you mention, but doesn't really suggest concrete solutions until the final chapter ("Thinking"), where ways to frame debates and attempt compromise are suggested in some detail.

Alfred wrote: "... As for “political correctness gone mad�, and its cousin, identity politics... An "either-you're-with-us-or-you're-with-them". There doesn't appear to be a "both/and" option."

The danger of that is a recurring theme. I guess the both/and option is that particular people or groups may be "us" in some senses and "them" in others?

Alfred wrote: "Informed/uninformed. Most of us fall somewhere in between! I always feel like I've learnt something reading your reviews, this one included..."

Thanks so much for such detailed and thoughtful comments, Alfred


message 9: by Mark (new)

Mark Hebwood I think to some extent the issue may be connected to how language itself works. If we wish to talk about something, we need to give that 'something' a name. The word "ball", for example, is a label to denote all objects that are spheres, typically of a size that allows them to be used as something to play with. So the word "ball" maps a real object to a marker that stands for it (the marker is the sound the word "ball" makes when pronounced).

But actually, it is a bit more complex still. The marker does not map one object to a sound, it maps a set of objects to that sound. There are basket balls, snooker balls, tennis balls, balls inside ball-bearings etc. When we pronounce the word "ball", we tend to refer to the overall set of objects rather than a specific one inside the set.

And I think the same dynamic applies to more abstract concepts. We tend to group similar ideas under one heading to make talking about them manageable. Socialism is a form of communism. Parliamentary, presidential, representational, direct democracies are specific types of democracies. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are specific types of sexual orientation.

So I think the need to group specific things together and talk about them as a group can make us blind to the differences between the specific things that constitute the group. Indeed, it is often instructive to talk about the behaviour of groups (a school of fish, murmurising starlings) before we talk about the behaviour of single members of a group.

So there's the issue - we appear programmed to talk about sets of things, rather than individual things, as the former is more manageable (it puts a simple handle on something more complex) and sometimes can even be more instructive. I guess this tendency is deeply rooted in the way human minds work, and that we find it easiest to generalise (talk about groups), more difficult to analyse (talk about members of groups) and most difficult to talk about relationships between members of groups. But it is that last dynamic that highlights subtle differences as representations of an underlying continuous, and therefore fluid, spectrum.

But it is much more difficult to think of groups in this way. Aside from all sorts of other factors that play into it (socialisation and personality of the observer etc) it seems to me that it is the actual architecture of our mind, and by extension the way we constructed language as a primary means of communication, that drives a tendency to generalise, and see the world as a collection of clearly delineated groups, rather than fluid continuums.

It takes real effort to see sexuality on a spectrum. Interestingly, even the label that has emerged to denote this spectrum seems to reflect this difficulty. "LGBTQI+", as far as I know, started out as "LGTB", but was then found not to represent a sufficient number of subsets in the gender flux, so people added two more manifestations, and, I suppose, stuck a "+" at the end to illustrate that the list is open-ended, and the already bristly acronym may, in time, grow to an even more impressive length. (*) It seems to me that a different label, such as "genderfluid" (yes, spelt as one word to give it linguistic legitimacy) may do a better job and even create the association in our minds that (I would claim) we want - that gender is fluid, not discrete.

(*) In an article I read somewhere recently, I saw this acronym: "LGBTQQI2SPAA". Hm. :-)


message 10: by Mark (new)

Mark Hebwood Alfred wrote: "What to do about bathrooms..."

When I read your excellent comment and got to the bit I highlighted above, my first reaction was to smile. I thought you had picked 'bathrooms' as a metaphor to say "everything else". Then I paused and thought "why would Alfred pick 'bathrooms' as a metaphor? What do 'bathrooms' have to do with anything?" Then I thought about having to replace some bathrooms in my house as they are getting old and what that would involve. And from there I got to public toilets and bathrooms in restaurants. And from there I got to "Ah. Yes. I see why that is an issue."

The reason why I recorded here what I was thinking is to show how your own sexual orientation may determine to which degree you are even aware of the problems. I am basically a heterosexual male. I don't regard myself as bigoted and I certainly have no issue with any form of sexual orientation I have so far encountered in my life. But as somebody occupying a position close to one end of the gender spectrum, I am also not exposed to the issues somebody might face who is somewhere in the middle.

And yet, architecture reflects awareness, or lack of it, of the complex needs of its users. There was a time that bathrooms in America were strictly segregated between black and white. Reflecting gender fluidity in the architecture of public bathrooms seems a particularly tricky problem - how can one highlight the idea that gender is fluid while still maintaining the legitimate need for privacy of gender groups within the flux?


message 11: by Dolors (new)

Dolors Much food for thought in this fine critique, Cecily. That books can open our minds is a literal truth in this case, and that they can make us grow in sympathy and understanding of others and ourselves seems also pretty obvious reading your meditations on the terms explored. Tempted to give it a go, thank you.


Cecily Mark wrote: "I think to some extent the issue may be connected to how language itself works...
We tend to group similar ideas under one heading to make talking about them manageable....
So I think the need to group specific things together and talk about them as a group can make us blind to the differences between the specific things that constitute the group...
a tendency to generalise, and see the world as a collection of clearly delineated groups, rather than fluid continuums..."


Yes! That makes sense. Thanks.

Mark wrote: "... It takes real effort to see sexuality on a spectrum..."

Whereas for me, it doesn't feel like a big effort, even though I myself am very much towards one end.

Mark wrote: "... the label that has emerged to denote this spectrum seems to reflect this difficulty...
I saw this acronym: "LGBTQQI2SPAA""


Wow. I'd not seen the last, but I found this article that defines the elements:

I think this may be one reason why "queer" is being reclaimed as an umbrella term.

Mark wrote: "... It seems to me that a different label, such as "genderfluid"... may do a better job and even create the association in our minds that (I would claim) we want - that gender is fluid, not discrete..."

Open minds and fluid thinking are good, but although some people are genderfluid, many (most?) find their position on the gender landscape and don't vary much from it, so at an individual level, gender may not be fluid, even among the queer community.

Thanks so much for your provocative (in a good way) comments. Now onto your next set...


Cecily Mark wrote: "... bathrooms... your own sexual orientation may determine to which degree you are even aware of the problems."

Oddly, the specific controversy about "bathroom bills" (US terminology for legislation about whether trans people can use the loos of their gender or have to use the one to match the gender assigned at birth) was hardly mentioned.

Mark wrote: "... There was a time that bathrooms in America were strictly segregated between black and white. Reflecting gender fluidity in the architecture of public bathrooms seems a particularly tricky problem - how can one highlight the idea that gender is fluid while still maintaining the legitimate need for privacy of gender groups within the flux?..."

It shouldn't be as much of a problem as it sometimes is. You can't - and shouldn't - force a butch bearded trans man into the ladies, and forcing a trans woman into the gents could cause just as much trouble. Inside a cubicle, who's to know anyway?

I think the answers are towards non-gendered cubicles and maybe a separate set of urinals. Most of us have all-gender/gender neutral loos and bathrooms in our homes, and small cafés often do too. Years ago, TV show Ally McBeal had workplace loos that were all-gender. It would also help with the issue of long queues for the ladies in places where there is no queue for the gents.


Cecily Dolors wrote: "Much food for thought in this fine critique, Cecily. That books can open our minds is a literal truth in this case, and that they can make us grow in sympathy and understanding of others and ourselves seems also pretty obvious reading your meditations on the terms explored..."

Thanks, Dolors. It's certainly good for cultivating empathy and understanding, but of oneself, as well as others.

Dolors wrote: "Tempted to give it a go, thank you."

I'm sure you'd find it fascinating, challenging, and eye-opening. Although the first two chapters, and inevitably (not a criticism) the comments focus on sexuality and gender, the great thing about the book is the way it applies similar ideas to... everything.


message 15: by Alfred (last edited Sep 30, 2019 01:00PM) (new)

Alfred Haplo Mark wrote: "Alfred wrote: "What to do about bathrooms..."

Haha, sorry, I should have specified "public restrooms". To Cecily's comment about all-gendered public restrooms (heh), there are increasingly more public facilities with the male/female sign so essentially, anyone can use it. From a practical business standpoint, that actually works out well for the establishment! Instead of allocating two restroom spaces for separate male use and female use, just combine both into one. Less restroom space = more usable space for generating revenue + less restroom maintenance cost!

I may be reading this wrong, but you seem to regard "genderfluid" to be interchangeable with... sexualfluid. A lot of people identify strictly with one gender but are sexually flexible.

Mark wrote: "... It takes real effort to see sexuality on a spectrum..."

Really?! Gotta say, Mark, I thought you cosmopolitan types would be ahead of the curve in being exposed to, and therefore effortlessly blasé of the whole range of spectrum... (a smiley here).

----------------------------------
"Cecily wrote: "You can't - and shouldn't - force a butch bearded trans man into the ladies, and forcing a trans woman into the gents could cause just as much trouble. Inside a cubicle, who's to know anyway?"

Most public restrooms are stalls with doors (not enclosed cubicles affording maximum privacy) with a foot to foot & half of open space between floor and stall partition. Not to be crude, but it's not difficult to tell who's standing and who's sitting in a stall by how the legs are visibly positioned. I agree that no one should be forcing a butch bearded trans man into the ladies or forcing a trans woman into the gents. So then, where do they go? The discomfort to general users comes when a butch bearded trans man tries to use the gents (making males feel uncomfortable) and when a trans woman uses the ladies (making females feel uncomfortable). I guess whatever is the safest option to the user would be the best option to take. The last thing anyone wants is to get jumped on when one is most vulnerable in a public place.

On a tangential note, I recently read this great article about bringing cultural changes to schools. One liberal elementary school in NY changed all its public restrooms from male & female to "both". These little kids were so confused and traumatized, they refused to relieve themselves until they got home! It made me think further beyond us as rational informed adults figuring out what it means to be non-binary in everything. The collective society should think about how to explain this paradoxical complexity to children, so that they can cope with it less stressfully.


----------------------------------
EDIT: BTW, I use "we" and "us" to be all encompassing, not necessarily to denote a personal experience... Not much, anyway)


Cecily Alfred wrote: "...I may be reading this wrong, but you seem to regard "genderfluid" to be interchangeable with... sexualfluid. A lot of people identify strictly with one gender but are sexually flexible...."

I agree with that - except I'm not keen on "sexualfluid" to mean fluid sexuality!

Alfred wrote: "...One liberal elementary school in NY changed all its public restrooms from male & female to "both". These little kids were so confused and traumatized, they refused to relieve themselves until they got home!..."

That's really sad! I hope the story is exaggerated, and that any upset was short-lived. It sounds as if the school failed in setting expectations beforehand.


message 17: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo Cecily wrote: "except I'm not keen on "sexualfluid" to mean fluid sexuality!"

Haha! What in the world was I writing?! *Thinking/Not Thinking*


message 18: by Apatt (last edited Oct 01, 2019 07:26PM) (new)

Apatt First, you tell me this isn't for me then you say
"This book is for you. Yes, YOU" 😅

Animated GIF though, what's the world coming to?
Great review as always, the book sounds very interesting, can't promise to read it through. Non-fic... 😉


Cecily Apatt wrote: "First, you tell me this isn't for me then you say
"This book is for you. Yes, YOU" 😅..."


Yeah, you got me. Yes, ME. 😉
But seriously, I think the book deserves a very wide audience, and that it's important to realise it's not just a book about sexuality and gender, but about broader self and societal improvement. But maybe you're already, as Mary Poppins said?

Apatt wrote: "Animated GIF though, what's the world coming to?..."

Yep. I think it's the first time I've used one in a review, and I hate a page with lots of them jiggling about. But to show colourful fluidity, I needed movement, and that one is pretty and gentle, and pretty gentle.


message 20: by Mark (new)

Mark Hebwood Haha, sorry, I should have specified "public restrooms".

I may be reading this wrong, but you seem to regard "genderfluid" to be interchangeable with... sexualfluid. A lot of people identify strictly with one gender but are sexually flexible.

You were not reading this wrong, actually. When I re-read my comments, I noticed that I allowed myself to become sloppy. Interestingly, though, my mistake highlights precisely what I meant, that "your own sexual orientation may determine to which degree you are even aware of the problems". I think the issues Cecily highlights are important, but to me they remain theoretical. It takes Cecily's insightful reviews of books I would not otherwise notice to make me sensitive to the problem.

But in my defense - if I say so myself :-) - gender appears to be as fluid as sexuality. People who identify with one gender may be sexually fluid, people who do not identify with their own gender (but with the other, none, or both), may not be sexually flexible. Or else, they may be.

So we seem to have a gender/sexuality plane, not a line. Say, we put sexuality on the x-axis of this "gendersex space" and on the y-axis, we put gender. We plot the boundaries like so:

Point (0, 0): Pure hetero / Pure own-gender ID.
Point (1, 0): Pure homo / Pure own-gender ID.
Point (0, 1): Pure hetero / Pure other-gender ID.
Point (1, 1): Pure homo / Pure other-gender ID.

People who identify with no gender would be on the line parallel to the x-axis going through point (0, 1/2) and I guess with a bit of goodwill we might put both-gender IDs on the line going through point (0, -1). All possible combinations are points on this plane, and the gradations are continuous.


Mark:"... It takes real effort to see sexuality on a spectrum..."
Alfred: "Really?! Gotta say, Mark, I thought you cosmopolitan types would be ahead of the curve in being exposed to, and therefore effortlessly blasé of the whole range of spectrum... (a smiley here).


Ha - smiley received :-). But see my remarks above. This may be a lot more involved than meets the eye...

And again, there's a deeper point here. Sure, I live in London and therefore in a global, cosmopolitan and open society. But the nature of these types of societies is that the individual can choose the groups they wish to belong to, the groups do not choose them (as it tends to be the case in villages or small urban settings).

I am basically a straight hetero male. A fair share of my friends and acquaintances are gay men and women. And that's it. I am sure I have never met a transgender person (I think this is somebody who identifies with a gender different from what they were born, and may or may not have acted upon this by having gender reassignment surgery).

So my personal world of sexual orientations is populated by hetero- and homosexual men and women. And this defines my view of the spectrum - it's sort of a line with discrete points on it, rather than the plane I outlined above. And this is what I meant - if my analysis makes any sense at all, I find a "gendersexual" (I think this is my coinage) continuum difficult to visualise. Not: difficult to accept. In fact, I think it is rather cool if a society acknowledges, and lives, such iridescent variety.

Just to explore the fluidity of the gendersexual space a bit: If I am a woman but identify with the gender of a man, then presumably that means that I feel sexually attracted to women. Does that mean that I am gay or hetero? A third party would presumably say I am gay, but I may feel that I am hetero. So gender and sexual orientation are linked, and (psychological) gender may be as fluid as sexual orientation. A transgender woman who likes to have sex with men would presumably have to be called gay. I guess.

There are "agender" people, who identify with no gender, and "genderfluid" (!! my word exists!!) people who identify with both. ()

What I was hoping to get across in my comment is that it would be helpful to see gender and sexuality as a continuous space, but that your own position within that space may make it difficult to do so.


message 21: by Mark (new)

Mark Hebwood P.S. - in all of the above I am talking about a static position in time. I guess it is also possible that sexual orientation and/or psychological gender affiliations change over time.


message 22: by Cecily (last edited Oct 02, 2019 03:09PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Cecily Just quickly, as I have to go out in a mo:

There's possible confusion about the word "fluid". Some individual people's gender or sexuality is fluid, whether daily, or over a much longer time. That is related to, but not the same as, there being a whole range of identities between the binaries.

Mark wrote: "... gender appears to be as fluid as sexuality. People who identify with one gender may be sexually fluid..."

Yep. And if your gender is not totally male or female, you can't be totally straight, as there isn't really an opposite gender.

Mark wrote: "...So we seem to have a gender/sexuality plane, not a line...."

A landscape is the term used in the book a few times, but for those with a more mathematical inclination, your plots work.

Mark wrote: "... I am sure I have never met a transgender person..."

I doubt you can be completely sure, but there's no shame in whether you have or haven't.

Mark wrote: "... I find a "gendersexual"... continuum difficult to visualise. Not: difficult to accept. In fact, I think it is rather cool if a society acknowledges, and lives, such iridescent variety..."

The book helps on that score, and I'm sure the authors would like "iridescent variety".

Mark wrote: "... If I am a woman but identify with the gender of a man, then presumably that means that I feel sexually attracted to women.... "

Not necessarily. You could be a trans man who's attracted men (so, a gay (trans) man), attracted to women (a straight (trans) man), or attracted to people of any and all genders (pansexual (trans) man) or none (asexual).

In practice, I gather that trans people often gravitate to dating within the queer community.

Mark wrote: "... I guess it is also possible that sexual orientation and/or psychological gender affiliations change over time."

The book explicitly says that is true for some people. (It does cause issues for the "born that way" defence of homosexuality, for instance, but truth matters.)

Mark wrote: "... What I was hoping to get across in my comment is that it would be helpful to see gender and sexuality as a continuous space, but that your own position within that space may make it difficult to do so..."

Exactly, and the last bit is why I said the book is relevant for everyone. And also because it's not just about sexuality and gender. Also, the style of the book, as well as the more general scope of it might appeal to you.


message 23: by Alfred (last edited Oct 02, 2019 08:50PM) (new)

Alfred Haplo Mark wrote: “So we seem to have a gender/sexuality plane, not a line. Say, we put sexuality on the x-axis of this "gendersex space" and on the y-axis, we put gender. We plot the boundaries like so

Adding letter references to your coordinates and descriptions,

A: Point (0, 0): Pure hetero / Pure own-gender ID.
B: Point (1, 0): Pure homo / Pure own-gender ID.
C: Point (0, 1): Pure hetero / Pure other-gender ID.
D: Point (1, 1): Pure homo / Pure other-gender ID.

y-Gender
^

C(0,1)--------------*D(1,1)
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
A(0,0)-------------*B(1,0) >x-Sexuality

ABCD - you’ve just tried to fit gender and sexuality into a... Box! Visually and otherwise. Exactly what the book stated not to do! (I haven’t read it, but am surmising from review).

y-Gender
^

C(0,1)--------------*D(1,1)
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
E(0,½)--------------------------(parallel to x-axis)
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
* -----------------*
A(0,0)-------------*B(1,0) >x-Sexuality

I guess you put “no gender� as a parallel line to x-axis through E(0,½) because it’s midpoint of A (own-gender) and C (other-gender)? As in, if one is not own-gender or other-gender, then the neutral position of those opposites would be no-gender. But having this on a 2-D plane suggests that if one were to go from A or B to C or D, then one must always intersect with the line through E (no gender). In other words, a change in own-gender must first require one to become no-gender, before becoming the other-gender. Yikes!

It’s kinda interesting that the origin (0,0) is based on your own orientation (hetero/male) with all other deviations referencing from it. I might quibble to say that the origin should be non-sexual, non-gender and then frame everything else around it...

But, valiant attempt!

(Also, more smileys)

Kidding aside though, I think we all try to make sense of it, to be able to put some science behind the complexity. Maybe it helps us understand it better in theory, but it’s still limiting. What you said here, “I think the issues Cecily highlights are important, but to me they remain theoretical�. The good news is, (almost) everyone is equally clueless (I know I am) so you’re in good company. The bad news is, (almost) everyone is equally clueless (except the author) so must-read-book.

Here’s something we can agree on, "your own sexual orientation may determine to which degree you are even aware of the problems" - to an extent. I think it’s based on a broader experience than just our own sexual orientation. The more exposure (direct and indirect) one has to any kinds of differences - rich/poor, abled/disabled, Left/Right, sick/healthy, young/old (I’d just reference the block of binary examples from Cecily) - the more attune we become to nuances and the more observant we become, I think.


message 24: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo Mark wrote: "P.S. - in all of the above I am talking about a static position in time. I guess it is also possible that sexual orientation and/or psychological gender affiliations change over time."

Ha, time.

P/S Maybe z-axis?


message 25: by Cecily (last edited Oct 02, 2019 11:59PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Cecily Mark, Alfred: I think you need to make and upload diagrams, including Z for time, and maybe some other axes as well...!

Alfred wrote: "... It’s kinda interesting that the origin (0,0) is based on your own orientation (hetero/male)... the origin should be non-sexual, non-gender and then frame everything else around it..."

Yes!


message 26: by Mark (new)

Mark Hebwood Cecily and Alfred,

thanks for your comments - to Cecily for bringing to my attention that the authors of the book apparently go through a similar thought process as I did yesterday night when I tried to plot people into an illustrative coordinate system ("landscape" is a good term for this) - and to Alfred for engaging so much with my grid that you went to the trouble of plotting the boundaries!

Just in response to some of what you guys said:

Cecily:
1/ Mark wrote: "... I am sure I have never met a transgender person..."
I doubt you can be completely sure, but there's no shame in whether you have or haven't.

I just wished to illustrate the boundaries of my social nexus, I am unsure how concepts such as 'shame' or 'pride' would come into it?

2/ There's possible confusion about the word "fluid"

Agreed! In fact, I was just thinking about this very issue this morning. The phrase 'fluidity' suggests active movement and hence invokes the idea of something that is in the process of changing. The concept of fluidity can therefore only relate meaningfully to the individual, and hence does not seem easily applicable to the more sociological analysis that I think the book presents.

When I was thinking about these concepts in my contributions, I was always thinking about the issue in terms of the structure of populations, ie there are groups of people who would identify themselves as gay, hetero, trans etc. The chart I presented (I only described the axes, I take your point I should have gone to the trouble of drawing a diagram, but Albert basically did this in his message) is an attempt to plot this dynamic.

I think to talk about a continuous (or sliding) scale (rather than a discrete scale) is a better way to denote what I was interested in. I am not focused on the possibility that somebody could start off in life with sexuality X and move towards sexuality Y over time, I am interested in noting that within the population, people can plot themselves on a sliding scale between homo and hetero. That's what my chart is trying to illustrate, and I found it interesting to add gender as the second axis, as the dynamics in the transgender community appear to illustrate clearly that there is a connection between gender and sexuality.

Probably best to ditch the term 'fluid', although I note that is used in the transgender community in designations such as 'genderfluid'.


Alfred:
I think some of your comments must be meant as banter, so forgive me if I still respond to them:

1/ ABCD - you’ve just tried to fit gender and sexuality into a... Box! Visually and otherwise. Exactly what the book stated not to do!

That was very funny! :-) :-)

2/ In other words, a change in own-gender must first require one to become no-gender, before becoming the other-gender. Yikes!

Here I wasn't sure whether you were taking the mickey or being serious... . In case you were serious, let me clarify that my chart does not plot all the possible states a single individual might occupy during a potentially fluid (here the term is correct) development in their lifetime. What I am doing, illustratively, is taking a large number of people (say 100 million) and ask them to plot themselves into the continuum (landscape). The logic of the gradation along the axes is debatable - but like I said, I did not try to prepare something for publication, it's an illustrative chart only.


Cecily and Albert

It’s kinda interesting that the origin (0,0) is based on your own orientation (hetero/male) with all other deviations referencing from it. I might quibble to say that the origin should be non-sexual, non-gender and then frame everything else around it...

This is actually a really interesting comment that you both made - Albert, you made it and Cecily, you agreed with it. It is interesting because the assumption behind it is subtle, and might suggest that the author of the coordinate system is biased (please shout me down if you did not intend this subtext, but in any case, I am NOT offended by it if it was - indeed, that is what I would like to discuss).

a/ But first, allow me to refer to my chart as I intended it to be read. It simply maps out the space of all possible combinations between gender and sexuality (actually, it does not quite do that, it's incomplete, but like I said, I only wanted to spend so much time on it...). But within this space, no single point has prominence over any other point. All possible states are equally 'valid', and the state at the origin of the co-ordinate system is just one amongst many. So, yes, you can put some other combination there if you want, but doing that will not change the idea of the chart as a continous space.
b/ Second, why would you pick "non-sexual, non-gender"? It's completely arbitrary what you put at the origin. I guess you suggest this because you would like to present these two states as somehow neutral, or default states. But there are no default states in a continuous space. If you assign that pair to the origin, I guess those who feel they are gay/genderfluid might accuse you of bias towards agender people... :-)
c/ But you still have a point. I can only see the world through my eyes, and for the purpose of this investigation found it easiest to start with me as the default state. In this case, this is not bias, because it is irrelevant and arbitrary where the pair hetero/own gender ID goes. And yet, I found it easier, and therefore more efficient, to develop the axes from the starting point of where I am.


I think it’s based on a broader experience than just our own sexual orientation. The more exposure (direct and indirect) one has to any kinds of differences - rich/poor, abled/disabled, Left/Right, sick/healthy, young/old (I’d just reference the block of binary examples from Cecily) - the more attune we become to nuances and the more observant we become, I think.

I agree entirely and love what you wrote there. Nothing more to add to that. Just an observation: what you said there is the reason that I live in a global, cosmopolitan metropolis. I am not hypocritical enough to suggest that I actively seek out groups that are not 'my own', but just by living in a city of this nature, you are naturally exposed to the kaleidoscope of cultures, income classes, ethnicities, sexual orientations etc that make up humanity, and to me it is a daily joy to mix within this cauldron.


message 27: by Cecily (last edited Oct 03, 2019 12:41PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Cecily I think you're talking yourself into reading this, Mark! Each chapter contains pauses: "reflection points", "slow down" mindfulness or thought experiments, and many direct quotes from individuals. Many books and websites are listed at the end of each chapter, too. Some of it overlaps with the approach of your excellent Happiness Rules, so it would be fascinating to see what you think of this. Plus, it would give you more insight beyond your own "world of sexual orientations is populated by hetero- and homosexual men and women" than a review can.

Mark wrote: "... The chart I presented (I only described the axes, I take your point I should have gone to the trouble of drawing a diagram..."

Well, the authors didn't either! On the other hand, they weren't as analytically precise as you.


message 28: by Mark (new)

Mark Hebwood OK you sold me 😊. Didn't take that much to get me interested though.... Its on the list. Thanks for your excellent reviews on that subject!


message 29: by Alfred (new)

Alfred Haplo Cecily, Mark - thanks guys, for the chat! And for indulging my occasional attempts at humor on a subject matter that's decidedly not real-world funny. I learnt a lot from the review, as stated before, and also from both your perspectives. If everyone were to approach this topic with as much earnestness and thoughtfulness, we would all be in a very good place.


message 30: by s.penkevich (new) - added it

s.penkevich Wow, this is an outstanding review. Thank you for analysing and addressing these topics so eloquently, this sounds like a must read! Going to order it now actually, thank you, I'll be looking forward to returning here to discuss!


message 31: by Cecily (last edited Feb 25, 2022 03:37PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Cecily s.penkevich wrote: "Wow, this is an outstanding review. Thank you for analysing and addressing these topics so eloquently, this sounds like a must read!..."

Thanks, and I'm confident you'll find it worthwhile. I read it primarily to better understand my non-binary kid, but was surprised and thrilled to see the broader canvas: how a non-binary approach in other realms can apply directly to me as well.


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