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Fionnuala's Reviews > La place
La place
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This is brave and beautiful writing but...
The author grieves for her dead father by assembling words on paper, words which slowly take the form of a portrait of the father from his childhood at the turn of the twentieth century, through his years as a farm labourer, as a factory worker and eventually as the proprietor of a little café/grocery shop on the edge of a small town in Normandy. Like many of his generation, he wished for a better life for his daughter and hoped that she would get the chance to step away from her working class origins. And there lies the central point of this book. The author emphasises at every turn her father's keen sense of his own inferiority and his constant, secret fear that his speech, his writing, his clothes or his manners would disgrace him, and her, in the eyes of those he believed to be his superiors. This intensely private anguish is what causes me to have reservations about Ernaux's book. Surely, among the worst things the father might ever have imagined was the publication of the less dignified details of his life, and of his death. Surely he would not want his personal incapacities revealed to the whole world?
I had similar reservations while reading Joan Didion's "Blue Nights", the feeling that intense grief and deeply personal regret, even when beautifully expressed, should be kept private.
The author grieves for her dead father by assembling words on paper, words which slowly take the form of a portrait of the father from his childhood at the turn of the twentieth century, through his years as a farm labourer, as a factory worker and eventually as the proprietor of a little café/grocery shop on the edge of a small town in Normandy. Like many of his generation, he wished for a better life for his daughter and hoped that she would get the chance to step away from her working class origins. And there lies the central point of this book. The author emphasises at every turn her father's keen sense of his own inferiority and his constant, secret fear that his speech, his writing, his clothes or his manners would disgrace him, and her, in the eyes of those he believed to be his superiors. This intensely private anguish is what causes me to have reservations about Ernaux's book. Surely, among the worst things the father might ever have imagined was the publication of the less dignified details of his life, and of his death. Surely he would not want his personal incapacities revealed to the whole world?
I had similar reservations while reading Joan Didion's "Blue Nights", the feeling that intense grief and deeply personal regret, even when beautifully expressed, should be kept private.
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Reading Progress
April 25, 2012
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Started Reading
April 25, 2012
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April 30, 2012
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Judy
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May 01, 2012 04:21PM
Did you read this in French or is it translated? It sounds so French, especially the father's reverse class consciousness.
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Yes, I read it in French - I've lived in France for the last twenty years.I wonder if this sensitivity to class is specific to the French or is it specific to an entire generation of Europeans. I'm talking about those who were born into a peasant class, a way of life that had remained almost unchanged for centuries, and who saw, as economies developed and education became less elitist, possibilities for their children which were unthinkable before. For the sensitive among them, fully aware of the chasm dividing their own modest lives from their childrens', the sense of inferiority must have been great. And feeling inferior to your child does not sit easily.
Probably an entire generation of Europeans; probably connected to the Industrial Revolution. I suppose we had it in America too but for immigrants to America, it was often a point of pride to feel inferior to your children who had "made it" in America. I think you are right about a way of life that had remained almost unchanged for centuries. Europe has a much longer history.
I have mixed feelings over the public sharing of private matters. It has been my experience that even the most impressionable memory is still fiction to some degree. It is amazing to me when I discuss a common experience with a sibling and their memory of it in no way resembles mine. I am looking forward to reading this book.
M. wrote: "I have mixed feelings over the public sharing of private matters. It has been my experience that even the most impressionable memory is still fiction to some degree..."Given your great enthusiasm for Ernaux's writing, you may have a different reaction to this book than I did, M - in spite of our agreement about the public sharing of private matters. In fact I'm really keen to read your thoughts on it because, as you've already discovered, whatever Ernaux writes about, she writes about beautifully.
I have never read Ernaux... which other one would you recommend?Yes, the airing of secrets of dear ones is an issue... also to be questioned in Elegy for Iris, which I have not read but saw the film based on it.. which made me think I did not want to read the book.
Are you giving stars again?
Marita wrote: "Fionnuala, I agree. Such intensely personal revelations publicly revealed make me cringe."It's a couple of years since I read this, Marita, and now I'm wondering why I presumed the narrator was the author - but there must have been some definite indication that she was. In any case, the same reservations apply even if it was a fiction - the narrator is revealing what her father would have preferred her to hide - a fictional betrayal is still a betrayal.
Kalliope wrote: "I have never read Ernaux....."The stars are from 2012, Kall - and the recent edit date must be because I edited my shelves and added lots of tags including the read-in-French tag so all my reviews look like they've been recently edited.
About the Iris Murdoch memoir - I'd never want to read that either - I read some her books and I think I'll keep them as my memory of her...
I think, and I certainly could be mistaken here, that Ernaux believes all writing is public, even writing done in private. She attempts also, I think, to write something so personal and private as to not want to show her face in public or even to be able to discuss what she has written. I think she is pretty brave myself. But I do understand how she can be perceived as a person betraying family secrets.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I have never read Ernaux....."The stars are from 2012, Kall - and the recent edit date must be because I edited my shelves and added lots of tags including the read-in-French t..."
Well, I am very glad this came up again.. I had not seen it in 2012... When did we 'meet'?
Which other Ernaux would you recommend.. you say she writes beautifully.
Kalliope wrote: "Which other Ernaux would you recommend.. you say she writes beautifully...."It's the only one I've read, Kall - but I admired the way she wrote this even if I disagree with her narrator about what should be made public. And from what M says, she may be provoking herself as much as the reader by revealing such private issues.
M. wrote: "...She attempts also, I think, to write something so personal and private as to not want to show her face in public or even to be able to discuss what she has written..."Hearing that really makes me want to read more of her books, M. We all probably think about writing personal stuff sometimes but are put off by the taboos around privacy, disloyalty, etc. From what you say, Ernaux seems to be confronting those taboos for interesting reasons, at least more interesting than what usually motivates kiss-and-tell memoirs.
Yes, so far I do not see her in that role of kiss-and-tell memoir. She is quite a thoughtful person who is attempting to have more meaning in her life, I think. She does make me think about things.
You may be right that Ernaux published details of her father's life that ought better to have remained private. This comes back to the problem that she addressed at the start. She noted that she had had the option of writing a piece of fiction with a protagonist modeled on her father but felt he would be better served by a memoir.I agree with you that La Place raises the question of what moral obligations exist for the author with respect to people that he or she is writing about. If Ernaux did not cross the line, she came very close.
Just saw your comment now, Czarny. Have you read this?
Haven't read the book, so I cannot comment on the opportunity or inopportuneness of detailing some personal moments of the author's life. I think it depends on their nature, and regarding this, I, personally, do not agree, for example, the episodes of detailed description of finding a new sexual identity, in the autobiographies of some authors. I'm thinking here of Mishima, of Baldwin, of O.Wilde , and many others. I believe, in the same vein that you have emphasized, that certain aspects should remain in a private setting. Not to mention Matzneff, again, who, despite a exceptional writing, published a series of pedophilic spéculations, in his books. I remembered Sonny Boy Wiliamson's song - Keep It To Yourself, a title that fit perfectly here :)
The thing is, Théodore, it was the sharing of embarrassing details relating to her father that I had an issue with, since her father was dead, and she said clearly how embarrassed he always was by his own shortcomings as he saw them. If the embarrassing details were her own, I would have less difficulty reading about them because she would have chosen to reveal them. The same goes for those authors you mention. If they have chosen to share personal stuff, even very private stuff relating to their sexuality, I would have no issue with that. In the case of Joan Didion, it was her terrible grief and guilt feelings over her daughter's death that made her book difficult for me to read. I felt like a voyeur watching her bleed onto the page.
Fionnuala wrote: "If the embarrassing details were her own, I would have less difficulty reading about them because she would have chosen to reveal them. The same goes for those authors you mention. If they have chosen to share personal stuff, even very private stuff relating to their sexuality, I would have no issue with that. ..."Hmm, I agree with you that it seems like a betrayal when we reveal anyone else's secrets, especially if it's not well camouflaged.
On personal experiences, I believe that everybody writes from some form of experience, and I feel that if nobody bared their soul, albeit in a camouflaged form, nobody else would gain a feeling of connectedness to humanity as a whole, and very little of writing would be deep and honest and poignant, writing would seldom touch us deeply, and writing would mainly serve as light entertainment or detached philosophizing.
Each to his own, of course, with due respect to you, Théodore, but I suppose that if one doesn't want to read anything that might be upsetting because you feel it crosses the boundaries of privacy, luckily nowadays one can choose to avoid it - where, fortunately, reviews and similar guidance in this connected internet age we live in, can for the most part help us navigate such stormy waters.
I do agree that the pedophilic speculations cross a certain line. That shouldn't see the light of day for quite a few reasons. On that one, we're on the same page.
That's quite logical, T. Of course we have the opportunity to know in advance the book we intend to read, and to abandon it, before being burdened with a repugnance feeling , just as the remote control can help us when we don't like a tv-channel. But I think that the subject, here, does not focus on removing an effect, but rather on analyzing the premises of a cause, in order to have a more ethical perception, so to speak.
Traveller wrote: "Hmm, I agree with you that it seems like a betrayal when we reveal anyone else's secrets, especially if it's not well camouflaged. On personal experiences, I believe that everybody writes from some form of experience, and I feel that if nobody bared their soul, albeit in a camouflaged form, nobody else would gain a feeling of connectedness to humanity as a whole, and very little of writing would be deep and honest and poignant, writing would seldom touch us deeply, and writing would mainly serve as light entertainment or detached philosophizing.."
Very valid thoughts here, Trav. Were you thinking of Proust—your words brought him to my mind in any case.
I really like Ernaux's work. I am going to re-read her in 2022. I originally read her about 10 years ago. I think maybe there are 2 books by her I have not read. I came away from reading this book with respect for her father. Maybe I see a bit of myself in him. He provided for his family. He tried.
You're right about the father figure, Jim—you just have to admire him.
Now that I have read this novel, I can reread your review. I completely agree. Strange way of portraying one's father.
It's not just embarrassing details about her family. It's not just the dry style and the cover of emotions. The whole writing about her family is condescending and derogatory. She does not even make sentences.And to justify her own miserable recounting, she looks down at herself in the last two pages of her book, as if to justify her not digging into her own emotions and finding the (obvious) marks of love from het family, the empathy about the hard life they had. As a historical account about the simple family life in Normandy in the first half of the century, it makes a vaguely interesting read. As a person and based on this book, I cannot but hope the entire world will forget her.
Luis wrote: "It's not just embarrassing details about her family. It's not just the dry style and the cover of emotions. The whole writing about her family is condescending and derogatory..."Thanks for commenting, Luis. I read another Ernaux, Les Années, after this one, and even though it was written in the same dry style and was partly about her family, it appealed to me much more. I do think she writes very well.
Thank you so much Fionnuala, maybe I'll give a try to Les Années one day then.
In light of her Nobel prize and the enjoyment I got from reading her The Years, I am so glad that I am rereading your review, Fionnuala, as this book is often mentioned as one of her best. But I am completely with you about crossing the boundaries of other people's privacy regardless of whether they are close to the writer. This will be a pass for me.I was drawn to exposing the stigma on poverty and how it unjustly affects individual lives, but it can be done without compromising the privacy of others. Perhaps her A Girl's Story or Happening might be better choices for she is indeed a good writer and here at least she chose to expose her own private trauma while also speaking to larger social issues.
Vesna wrote: "In light of her Nobel prize and the enjoyment I got from reading her The Years, I am so glad that I am rereading your review, Fionnuala, as this book is often mentioned as one of her best. But I am completely with you about crossing the boundaries of other people's privacy regardless of whether they are close to the writer. This will be a pass for me..."This book may have been Ernaux's first novel, Vesna and yes, it's sometimes talked about as her best. I did see how well written it was—I love Ernaux's writing at the sentence level—but I couldn't accept the betrayal of the father that was happening on the pages. The Years was much less personal and private and I preferred it for that reason.
If you try A Girl's Story, I will lookout for you thoughts on it.
After reading three of her books, I tried this one and "A Woman's Story" and I had to put them down as they made me deeply uncomfortable. I understand how our parents' story has everything to do with us but I'm not sure if it's our place to tell it.
Paula wrote: "After reading three of her books, I tried this one and "A Woman's Story" and I had to put them down as they made me deeply uncomfortable..."You reacted exactly like me, Paula, and for the same reasons. Those same reasons make me uncomfortable with biography and especially with fictionalized biography—unless permission has been granted by the subject.
one of the most atrocious takes I've ever seen on this site. her father is DEAD. he can't care about this book. there is no moral obligation to the spirit of someone who has passed away. this book CAN'T hurt him
