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Matthew Ted's Reviews > Fathers and Sons

Fathers and Sons by Ivan Turgenev
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really liked it
bookshelves: 1001-list-2006-ed, 19th-century, translated, lit-writ-russian, read-2021, publisher-nyrb

74th book of 2021. Artist for this review is Ukrainian-born Russian painter Ilya Repin (1844-1930). If you are interested, do explore his touchingly personal portraits of Tolstoy (I've included one in the review too).

When you look at the Google definition of a nihilist it gives this quote below the definition itself, "It is impossible to argue against a nihilist." Bazarov is the nihilist in the middle of this Russian tale from 1862. The opening premise of the novel is one that appeals to me: a student, Arkady, returning home from his education with his (bizarre?) intelligent friend, Bazarov, who believes in (nothing?) science but not, never, in the arts. At its core, Turgenev was pitting the younger generation against the older.

description
"Preparation for the Examination"�1864
'He is a nihilist,' repeated Arkady.
'A nihilist,' said Nikolai Petrovich. 'That comes from the Latin nihil—nothing, I imagine; the term must signify a man who... who recognises nothing?'
'Say—who respects nothing,' put in Pavel Petrovich, and set to work with the butter again.
'Who looks at everything critically,' observed Arkady.
'Isn't that exactly the same thing?' asked Pavel Petrovich.
'No, it's not the same thing. A nihilist is a person who does not take any principle for granted, however much that principle may be revered.'

Similarly, my brother is home from his own studies, having just finished his degree. The plan was not to come home but he is currently without anywhere to live up north in M., and whilst he looks for a place, he is back at home. I told him about nihilists and he declared, simply and proudly, "I'm a nihilist." Perhaps not true. But the most fascinating thing about the novel is not the fact that Bazarov is a nihilist, but the fact that it portrays the younger generation as they were then, and still as they are now: forever growing, changing. It reminds me of S. once telling me he listened to punk music as a teenager simply because his parents couldn't understand why he loved such dreadful music; the reason they didn't understand it drove him to adore it.

description
"Leo Tolstoy in his Study"�1891 (Tolstoy has nothing to do with the novel but I could not resist including one of the portraits, and it reminds me of Bazarov asking not to be disturbed as he works in his room.)

Bazarov's discussion with Arkady's "old-fashioned" uncle makes for the most compelling part of the novel. When Pavel Petrovich asks Bazarov what he does, what the nihilists do then, he says,
'This is what we do. Not so very long ago we were saying that our officials took bribes, that we had no roads, no trade, no impartial court of justice...'
'Oh, I see, you are accusers—that, I think, is the right name. Well, I too should agree with many of your criticisms, but...'
'Then we realised that just to keep on and on talking about our social diseases was a waste of time, and merely led to a trivial doctrinaire attitude. We saw that our clever men, our so-called progressives and reformers never accomplished anything, that we were concerning ourselves with a lot of nonsense, discussing art, unconscious creative work, parliamentarianism, the bar, and the devil knows what, while all the time the real question was getting daily bread to eat, when the most vulgar superstitions are stifling us, when our industrial enterprises come to grief solely for want of honest men at the top, when even the emancipations of the serfs—the emancipation the government is making such a fuss about—is not likely to be to our advantage, since those peasants of ours are only too glad to rob even themselves to drink themselves silly at the gin-shop.'
'So,' Pavel Petrovich interrupted him�'so you were convinced of all this and decided not to do anything serious yourselves.'
'And decided not to do anything serious,' Bazarov repeated grimly.

But even Bazarov succumbs to his feelings and is derailed slightly by the stirring of love. Arkady also falls in love. The novel moves away from their grande discussions and into a tale of love and friendship and at the end, of tragedy. Though it seems a rather cold novel with Bazarov's cold philosophies and temperaments, it has moments of profound beauty. That Russian feeling of great despair but also great hope. Turgenev is a wonderful writer and proves to me all the more that I must read more and more Russian fiction from the 19thC. Despite all the talk about nihilism, this quote was my favourite quote from the novel, which moved me quite a bit. I'll just end with it.
'Tell me, why is it that even when we are enjoying music, for instance, or a beautiful evening, or a conversation in agreeable company, it all seems no more than a hint of some infinite felicity existing apart somewhere, rather than actual happiness—such, I mean, as we ourselves can really possess? Why is it? Or perhaps you never felt like that?'
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Reading Progress

June 29, 2021 – Started Reading
June 29, 2021 – Shelved
June 30, 2021 –
page 150
75.0% "These pesky nihilists..."
July 2, 2021 –
page 200
100.0% "Enjoying this very much so far but it's fallen slightly by the wayside so I can move through Winton's Cloudstreet at a good pace. I'll return to it tomorrow and get it moving again for a finish in a few days. Next year I plan to read a great many Russian and French classics from the 19thC, with my new found adoration for both."
July 4, 2021 –
page 264
100%
July 4, 2021 – Finished Reading
July 5, 2021 – Shelved as: 1001-list-2006-ed
July 5, 2021 – Shelved as: 19th-century
July 5, 2021 – Shelved as: translated
July 5, 2021 – Shelved as: lit-writ-russian
July 5, 2021 – Shelved as: read-2021
September 19, 2023 – Shelved as: publisher-nyrb

Comments Showing 1-21 of 21 (21 new)

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Tina Tamman For me, the pull of the novel was enhanced by a play I saw in Tallinn years ago. I had read the novel before, then saw the play (a few times), then read the novel again, and had to admit that the play affected me more. Superb cast, too, and music. In the novel, I guess, I could not relate to the Bazanov character but in the theatre I could. Rare experience that a stage play would add to a novel, particularly since I love Turgenev.


Matthew Ted Tina wrote: "For me, the pull of the novel was enhanced by a play I saw in Tallinn years ago. I had read the novel before, then saw the play (a few times), then read the novel again, and had to admit that the p..."

That is interesting to hear, Tina. I'm not a great lover of the theatre on the whole, but have had some good experiences. I would love to read this again in 10 or even 20 years and see how I view it then, when I have moved from the age of Arkady and Bazarov to the age of their parents.


message 3: by Ken (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ken Kind of like Billy Joel's old song "Angry Young Man." We all go through that phase. Well, most of us do, anyway.


Matthew Ted Ken wrote: "Kind of like Billy Joel's old song "Angry Young Man." We all go through that phase. Well, most of us do, anyway."

I think my phase was relatively un-angry, but I certainly went through a period of conceitedness as a late teenager at university.


message 5: by Ken (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ken For that, I take my daily Ecclesiastes: "Vanity of vanities; all is vanity."


message 6: by Kenny (new) - added it

Kenny Great review -- this makes me want to set everything aside and read Turgenev.


message 7: by Vartika (new)

Vartika Excellent review!


message 8: by Zoeb (new)

Zoeb What a beautiful review, Matthew. Simply exquisite. So wise, thoughtful and so crisply written with lucidity. I loved once again how you deconstructed the themes of not only nihilism but also the gap between generations. Well done brother....


Matthew Ted Kenny wrote: "Great review -- this makes me want to set everything aside and read Turgenev."

He's wonderful to read and has a number of novellas. I recommend.


Matthew Ted Vartika wrote: "Excellent review!"

Thanks, Vartika.


Matthew Ted Zoeb wrote: "What a beautiful review, Matthew. Simply exquisite. So wise, thoughtful and so crisply written with lucidity. I loved once again how you deconstructed the themes of not only nihilism but also the g..."

Thank you, Zoeb. I'll be reading more of him this year yet.


Laura Another thoughtful and discerning review. I particularly liked your closing thoughts, which echoed my own reflections about a theme running through the book relating to the universality of human nature-->Qualities that unite humankind, that reveal the similarities between fathers and sons, parents and children, men and women, between social classes. In spite of the multiplicity of antithesis, dualities, contrasts, and changing impressions there was a running current of those things which are "in the nature of all things" (as Bazarov's father once remarks). Even though Bazarov continually tries to separate himself from the general population, basic human nature quickly pulls him back, or, rather, uncovers his illusions about himself.

The sons want desperately to be emancipated from the old world superstitions of their parents; the parents (while also hoping to be surpassed by their children) want desperately to not be left irrelevant and alone with their own mortality. And all wish to be free from the fatalism of the endless cycle of fathers and sons and sons becoming fathers, etc. The continuity of life, the inevitability of death.

However passionate, sinful, and rebellious the heart hidden in that grave may have been, the flowers growing on it gaze serenely at us with their innocent eyes. They speak to us not only of eternal peace, of that glorious peace of "indifferent" nature; they also speak to us of eternal reconciliation and life everlasting...


Matthew Ted Laura wrote: "Another thoughtful and discerning review. I particularly liked your closing thoughts, which echoed my own reflections about a theme running through the book relating to the universality of human na..."

After answering your comment on my Calvino review and then coming here I see that duality as clear as day here. I adore your observation about the cycle of fathers and sons and sons becoming fathers and so on; this is something I hadn't consciously thought about but so true; and though the philosophies of the young may change through the generations/centuries, it will always be that same cycle, won't it? Turgenev has created a portrait of Russia at the time but also a universal portrait of all fathers and sons across all time and space.

I must ask though, did you feel more inclined to side with Bazarov and his mentality or with the older generation? I found myself falling in and out of favour with the former. He is conceited and hypocritical but I also found something very endearing about him. Arkady seemed more real to me, the sheep, with all his humanity, being torn between wanting to believe in something new and bigger but feeling a tenderness for the people he is essentially being asked to "oppose". I found his excuses for his uncle and his behaviour to Bazarov very interesting, as if what has happened to someone in their past must surely influence how they are treated in the present.


Laura I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sake. So, in that sense, I was more aligned with Bazarov. But I agree with you that his conceited disregard for others was very off-putting. His raw intelligence was not tempered by love or sensibility. I also could not agree with his dismissal of the arts and the aesthetic. His blind adherence to pure reason, science, and usefulness ended up being of very little use to anyone, including himself. Arkady's tenderness, as you point out, was far more appealing.


Vasilii Ivanovich cleared his throat. "In this province...Of course, gentlemen, you know far better. How could we keep up with you? For you've come to take our places. In my day, too, there was some sort of humoralist named Hoffman, and someone named Brown, with his vitalism--they seemed quite ridiculous to us, by they'd also made a lot of noise at one time or another, of course. Someone new has replaced Rademacher for you--you look up to that man--but in another twenty years, it'll probably be his turn to be laughed at."

In philosophy and art--and many other disciplines--each new movement grows out of reaction to or rejection of the previous. However, I believe it is possible for this cycle to turn over while still retaining an appreciation for the significance of tradition. A discerning appreciation of tradition. True freedom of thought is achieved through a multiplicity of ideas and experiences. This is hardly possible when ideas are dismissed out of hand for being "new" or being "old" or for not fitting into one's idea of oneself (Bazarov).

Your anecdote about your brother fits perfectly into this book discussion. That's my favorite thing about your reviews--the personal element that breaks down the boundaries between readers.

You said Turgenev has inspired you to read more 19th C Russian fiction. Do you think he is a good representation of that whole? Or stylistically very different? Turgenev has such an abundance of human warmth.


Matthew Ted Laura wrote: "I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sake. So, in that sense, I was more aligned with Bazarov. But I agree with you that his conceited disreg..."

I must admit I turned against Bazarov at several points purely because of his dismissal and mockery of art. He made for an interesting character though and his multifacetedness drove the narrative for me. I wonder if what Turgenev is truly trying to do is make us, as reader, appreciate both sides and therefore both generations at once. I can't say if his narrative favours either the fathers or the sons other than the sons being the focus of it. At times, the sons seem as conceited as we've said, but at other times they seem so fresh and intelligent in comparison to their elders. That's what makes the novel interesting, I didn't feel a particular tug either way from Turgenev himself.

Your second paragraph speaks many truths. Even the postmodernists themselves respected and adored those modernists who came before them even though their novels were destroying and mocking everything they stood for. It's a funny balance between the rejecting and the progressing; interestingly, the sort of balance I felt when reading Turgenev's novel, hovering between preferring the fathers' beliefs and sons' beliefs. In that way, he has written a wonderfully successful novel.

Thank you, I worry that the autobiographical tendencies that slip into my reviews are distracting/unneeded/self-important, but I use Å·±¦ÓéÀÖ as a memory bank for myself as well as a way to track and communicate, etc.

Someone told me recently that Turgenev was considered to be the great Russian prose writer by his contemporaries, where Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky were favoured more for their dialogue or their ideas, it was Turgenev's language that they favoured. And yet of course he is the least known and least read of the big Russian three, if you consider Turgenev as the third in the triumvirate. He read like a Russian novelist of the period to me, hopeful and tragic at once. As far as tone is concerned, he, again, sits perfectly balanced between Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky: not quite as aristocratic and hopeful of the human spirit as the former, nor as dark and psychotic as the latter, but a fine balance of two.


Laura Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sake. So, in that sense, I was more aligned with Bazarov. But I agree with you that his co..."

I entirely agree with you about Bazarov keeping the narrative interesting. While Arkady was a nicer person, he would have made for a boring story all on his own.

I feel the same way about Turgenev's balanced approach towards the fathers and the sons. Yet, it's my understanding that he was highly criticized by both sides at the time. He wrote of the criticisms, "They are all attacking me, Reds and Whites, from above and below, and from the sides, especially from the sides." But I thought the novel perfectly demonstrated that it is possible to hold multiple perspectives simultaneously. It is almost like a Hegelian dialectic in which genuine contradictions can exist.

Maybe it's because I read them at around the same time, but much about this novel reminded me of Theodor Fontane's Effi Briest. At one point Bazarov interjects that "A good chemist is twenty times as useful as any poet." Fontane was a chemist and a beautiful novelist. Multiple perspectives.

I think your assessment of "the triumvirate" is insightful and accurate. I hadn't sorted them so clearly in my own mind, but you are percipient in your descriptions. When you come around to Russian literature again, what do you think you will read next?


message 17: by Matthew Ted (last edited Jul 15, 2021 05:18PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Matthew Ted Laura wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sake. So, in that sense, I was more aligned with Bazarov. But I agree ..."

Interesting that he felt so attacked. I knew it caused a level of "uproar" in Russia when it was published. Fontane's is on my list already actually, I'll read that and compare them myself as I go. Was he really a chemist? I find scientists gone writers very intriguing, like Primo Levi (also a chemist).

Maybe it is unfair to call Turgenev neither one nor the other, but rather than being on the fence, I see him as employing a lot all at once, rather than being a mauve middle-ground. My focus next year is going to be a lot of Russian and French literature from the 19thC, and to be honest, I may focus on them this year once summer topples into autumn again. I'll be reading, at last, Anna Karenina soon, hopefully. And when winter comes around I've got my eye on The Brothers Karamazov and Doctor Zhivago, though the latter is out of my aforementioned century, of course. (And more Turgenev! I may read another one rather soon, in fact.)


message 18: by Tina (new) - rated it 4 stars

Tina Tamman Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sake. So, in that sense, I was more aligned with Bazarov..."
Thank you both Ted and Laura for such an interesting dialogue. I have read the lot and feel that I have benefited. I love Turgenev and you so well put into words what I like about "Fathers and Sons". Also significant is the way how people construct their reviews. Thanks again.


Matthew Ted Tina wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sake. So, in that sense, I was more ..."

Glad to hear it, Tina. Laura is always wonderful to have around for a good discussion.


Laura Matthew Ted wrote: "Tina wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sake. So, in that sense..."

Thank you! It was a wonderful conversation with pleasant company.

I want to read more Primo Levi. I've read Survival in Auschwitz, but his other books have been sitting on my "to-read" shelf for too long. Tangentially, Carlo Levi's Christ Stopped at Eboli: The Story of a Year and Fear of Freedom: With the Essay "Fear of Painting" were both excellent reads.


Matthew Ted Laura wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Tina wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "Matthew Ted wrote: "Laura wrote: "I am generally inclined to rebel against the notion of maintaining tradition for tradition's sak..."

I recommend Moments of Reprieve, Laura. It's an often overlooked one, very short (could be read in a few hours) but absolutely beautiful; it is haunting and hopeful at once.

I've got Christ Stopped at Eboli on my own to-read list, but haven't heard of the latter, I'll have a look, thank you.


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