Sean Chick's Reviews > The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion
The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion
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If you are a Republican this book will make you feel very good about yourself. According to Haidt you have a more balanced morality, a realistic view of "human nature" (beware anyone who says they understand human nature), and some other good stuff I forgot about. He points the finger at liberals but seems unaware about the political dangers of conservatism. He discusses liberals with disdain. With conservatives there is a kind of awe and he rarely discusses their hypocrisies. Of course he conveniently says we are all hypocrites and should not worry with it. There lies the reason why he is so kind to the contemporary right, which is a clan of hypocrites without equal. Haidt believes we do not reason so much as we rationalize, which really makes one wonder how we managed to even invent the wheel or start using fire. It also explains why he never includes "truth" in his limited moral universe. The Persians made it the center of their morality. I guess it would just complicate things, so like any hack, he ignores it, much the same way evolutionary psychologists often dodge the issue of suicide. It also makes it easier to accept contemporary conservatism, which has grown alongside tepid moral relativism.
The above thoughts make him seem like a man at home in the world before the English Civil War administered the first blows for egalitarianism. In other words, this is perfect neo-liberal dreck for our vapid post-modern world. A fashionable book that in time will be mocked and at best studied as a curiosity, the main curiosity being why this man is taken so seriously. I suppose he just went to the right schools, just like the guys who sent us to Iraq, deregulated the banks, etc.
Most of all, Haidt simply does not understand either side of the political fight. If Republicans love authority, why do they disdain the government? On the flip side the same holds true for government loving liberals. That is because the question is not how much government we shall have. The question is over who shall rule. Conservatives throughout history are defined by their acceptance of gross inequality, which is why any authority that approaches fairness is opposed by them. Haidt grasps this somewhat when discussing fairness and equality but not with the same success as Corey Robin.
UPDATE: Years later and still ticking as my most popular review. It is not my best written or most nuanced. As such it requires an update, since it was very much a product of 2013. Has my opinion changed? I can make my case against the book with less vitriol, and a few lines do not really work so well. For instance, my point about rationality is a stretch. I saw Haidt as part of a gradual process, aided on the left and right, to debase the value of rationality. I could go on, but I think our declining faith in reason as an ideal, if not a full blown reality, is in part why you get FOX News and campus protests. My point though could have been better made, but I won't change the review. The old dog has been around for too long now.
More to the point, the book still suffers from some flaws in research. It has a bias and more to the point has a limited understanding of morality. Haidt dodges questions of truth and hypocrisy because they would undermine his argument. I have no time anymore for arguments, left or right, that ignore their internal contradictions or other view points that would question their basic premises. Haidt's work is not without merit, but it is already showing its age.
Yet, this review of Haidt shows its age. It was written when I was firmly on the left. I am not any longer, having seen the rise of anarchist views and resurgent critical theory. In 2013 I had seen years of right-wing hypocrisy, arrogance, and idiocy (Bush years, Tea Party). The left has responded in kind with its own blend. As such, the nation cannot hold together since both sides utterly hate and distrust each other. Our government system cannot handle such discord. It could not in 1861 and it will not today. In 2013 I may have appeared to be on the left, but since then much has changed, and I find myself being cast out by those in my camp for disagreeing with tactics and goals. I am a man without a party or a tribe and soon the wolf and the lion will be at each other's throats.
Gone are the days online or in person when debate could be heated, but without hate. Just read the comments. Conservatives came to attack this review, and they almost always do so by using some ad hominem attacks. I was called a liar, told I was unreasonable with a "bloated sense of compassion." One person wrote "I'm only enraging the situation by disagreeing with your obnoxious liberal elephant and will only make it more combative." My answer? "Not at all. Unlike what we see today on campus, I am all about debate." This is where we are today. We no longer trade ideas online. Instead we look to score points, certain of how "the other" will react.
The war starts among the people before it ever gets formalized. Bleeding Kansas and the Boston Massacre were preludes. We are seeing our own preludes in 2017.
The above thoughts make him seem like a man at home in the world before the English Civil War administered the first blows for egalitarianism. In other words, this is perfect neo-liberal dreck for our vapid post-modern world. A fashionable book that in time will be mocked and at best studied as a curiosity, the main curiosity being why this man is taken so seriously. I suppose he just went to the right schools, just like the guys who sent us to Iraq, deregulated the banks, etc.
Most of all, Haidt simply does not understand either side of the political fight. If Republicans love authority, why do they disdain the government? On the flip side the same holds true for government loving liberals. That is because the question is not how much government we shall have. The question is over who shall rule. Conservatives throughout history are defined by their acceptance of gross inequality, which is why any authority that approaches fairness is opposed by them. Haidt grasps this somewhat when discussing fairness and equality but not with the same success as Corey Robin.
UPDATE: Years later and still ticking as my most popular review. It is not my best written or most nuanced. As such it requires an update, since it was very much a product of 2013. Has my opinion changed? I can make my case against the book with less vitriol, and a few lines do not really work so well. For instance, my point about rationality is a stretch. I saw Haidt as part of a gradual process, aided on the left and right, to debase the value of rationality. I could go on, but I think our declining faith in reason as an ideal, if not a full blown reality, is in part why you get FOX News and campus protests. My point though could have been better made, but I won't change the review. The old dog has been around for too long now.
More to the point, the book still suffers from some flaws in research. It has a bias and more to the point has a limited understanding of morality. Haidt dodges questions of truth and hypocrisy because they would undermine his argument. I have no time anymore for arguments, left or right, that ignore their internal contradictions or other view points that would question their basic premises. Haidt's work is not without merit, but it is already showing its age.
Yet, this review of Haidt shows its age. It was written when I was firmly on the left. I am not any longer, having seen the rise of anarchist views and resurgent critical theory. In 2013 I had seen years of right-wing hypocrisy, arrogance, and idiocy (Bush years, Tea Party). The left has responded in kind with its own blend. As such, the nation cannot hold together since both sides utterly hate and distrust each other. Our government system cannot handle such discord. It could not in 1861 and it will not today. In 2013 I may have appeared to be on the left, but since then much has changed, and I find myself being cast out by those in my camp for disagreeing with tactics and goals. I am a man without a party or a tribe and soon the wolf and the lion will be at each other's throats.
Gone are the days online or in person when debate could be heated, but without hate. Just read the comments. Conservatives came to attack this review, and they almost always do so by using some ad hominem attacks. I was called a liar, told I was unreasonable with a "bloated sense of compassion." One person wrote "I'm only enraging the situation by disagreeing with your obnoxious liberal elephant and will only make it more combative." My answer? "Not at all. Unlike what we see today on campus, I am all about debate." This is where we are today. We no longer trade ideas online. Instead we look to score points, certain of how "the other" will react.
The war starts among the people before it ever gets formalized. Bleeding Kansas and the Boston Massacre were preludes. We are seeing our own preludes in 2017.
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Sean
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Mar 05, 2014 09:42AM

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That, and it felt like he was doing that horrible "balance" thing they do here. I don't know how to explain it right. It's that whole one for one thing, where Haidt would bring up one issue with Liberals then one with Conservatives (and same with the good things). Like in order not to be biased, he couldn't bring up more issues with Conservatives than he did with Liberals or some such BS, or the PC police would arrest him.




Those are dichotomies that the Conservatives would fail utterly at (as in, Haidt probably couldn't twist things around enough to make it seem that, while they may fail at it, it's a small, small failure. Not a big one. *winkwink*) lulz

Your review and the comments remind me of Haidt's elephant/rider analogy for emotion/reason. Your elephant doesn't want to accept value in conservatism, so your rider finds reasons to devalue Haidt's insights.


Really can't be further from the truth. Hell, the only magazine I subscribe to is "The American Conservative." I admit that contemporary American Tea Party conservatism is nothing more than the worship of wealth. It has nothing to do with authority, tradition, or liberty, unless we narrowly define those terms as Ayn Rand's sacred symbol: $
However, if we consider other forms of conservatism, such as those actually rooted in "hierarchy and tradition" I not only see value. I also see beauty. That is what separates conservatives such as Tolkien and T. S. Eliot from what you see in the GOP. They believed in continuity and tradition, not capitalism uber alles.
Haidt's sin is that he wants to have crossover appeal. As you noted he wondered why John Kerry lost and while the book was published in 2012, it really feels like 2005, when liberals were at their lowest ebb. Might not the recent Republican defeats (save for 2010) not point to something else? He is smart. He makes some good observations. What he lacks is conviction and the guts to call a spade a spade.
As for reason, of course it does not move our emotions. Yet is reason not important to what he discusses? Indeed it is, but we live in an age where we are told to doubt reason and even the power of our conscious minds. It explains in part why we are a declining nation.

I guess this guy just can't win with you, which would seem that you are not living according to reason.

Haidt's work is not that of reason but of a man wanting to appeal to a wide audience with pop science dressed up as wisdom. This is not science in any meaningful way. As for living according to "reason," despite my love for the word and what it has brought us, rare is the man who can live according to reason. Rarer still is the man of reason who is the life of the party. ;)


"Furthermore, several other systems of moral classification have developed alongside his, and they are all strikingly similar, even across disciplines such as social science." - Such as?
"I'm sure you would do awesome." - Too busy writing Civil War histories. ;)

"If Republicans love authority, why do they disdain the government?" First of all, his discussion is about conservatives, liberals and libertarians (and a few others) not Republicans.
Second, did you read the book? Conservatives are more balanced than other types, authority is one of six dimensions and the other five counterbalance this one. An overbearing government is antithetical to conservative values which also value liberty, proportionality, sanctity, loyalty and care.
"The question is over who shall rule." Uh... so you didn't read the book but have your partisan hat on?

"An overbearing government is antithetical to conservative values which also value liberty, proportionality, sanctity, loyalty and care." - This is mostly conservatism in the Anglosphere (although "caring" is a hypocritical value to hold for a party that denies health care, gay marriage, paid family medical leave, welfare, etc.) Elsewhere, it is very much tied into the state. This is not the kind of conservatism he is looking into, but it is worth a mention, just as there are non-statist liberals elsewhere. Furthermore, most American conservatives (save libertarians) have no problem expanding the military state. Indeed, the state they most despise is the one that aids the poor (welfare) and limits the rich (regulation). All of this could have used some coverage.
As I said, it is all about who shall rule. I wish he understood this, but to be fair when he wrote this book that question was on ice. Maybe he thinks it is important today.
"Uh... so you didn't read the book but have your partisan hat on?" - We all wear our partisan hat. Put it on proudly, make your arguments, have empathy, but stand by your guns.



Haidt's decisions to ignore three other dichotomies -- Individualism/Common Good, Humans/Environment, and Truth/Societal Prejudice -- are certainly not based on "decades of research." So, so much for "taking the bias out of the equation."
Also, Sean is simply following your example: While you consider that Sean's viewpoint might be colored, he is granting the same scrutiny to Haidt. I would think you'd admire a fellow traveler!

I'm all about criticism when it's founded in science and not simply an individual's subjective viewpoint. If you read the book thoroughly you would see that Haidt was anything but biased and followed the facts where they lead him. I don't see the same attitude in these conversations.

I'm all about criticism when it's founded in science and not simply an individual's subjective viewpoint. If you read the book thoroughly you would see that Haidt was anything but biased and followed the facts where they lead him. I don't see the same attitude in these conversations.

Ever suppose that Haidt's views might be colored and that researching values in an objective way is highly dubious. Particularly when you lavish praise on one side's particular values and ignore other moral values?
That is unless you agree with his arguments, then maybe it is a case of confirmation bias. Which is interesting. The only times people tell me "you just don't understand this book" is when I give a tome one stars. This includes some left-wing books as well.
There is the question of book sales (and how to generate them), but I admit that is a suspicion of mine. Evidence in this regard is lacking. However, my contention is that his vision of morality is limited and biased but dressed up in science, has merit. Ivonne has pointed out quite a few ideas ignored by Haidt or given short shrift. I would have more respect for Haidt if he did a follow up work looking at this, or at least looked into things such as reason and hypocrisy instead of all but saying they are irrelevant.
But if you want we can keep talking in circles. I am sure neither of us will change each other's minds.


There is an arrogance in the idea that I cannot criticize a book because I did not do decades of research or because I am not an expert on what is by nature "subjective." Physics, geology, chemistry, and other scientific inquires are a whole other field from moral theory. They are strictly empirical. What is moral changes due culture and time.
I write history books on the American Civil War. I do years of research for each book. Two things I keep in mind. One is, not everyone is going to agree. I can state my case, but it is not science. Second, there is more research to be done. It would be arrogant to presume that I will have the last definitive word on whatever aspect of the war I write about. Above all, that is what irks me about Haidt. He takes one of the most subjective and complicated topics and arrogantly dismisses moral ideas that run counter to his thesis.
You see objective hard research. I see a subjective work masquerading as objectivity.

Various spiritual texts embrace environmentalism, although, of course, it's not called that. Jainism is the most developed, of course; however, the Torah includes the requirement for leaving lands fallow one year out of seven (known in Hebrew as shmita, in addition to the command to be good stewards of the Earth. Various rabbis argue that Kosher butchering was designed to much less cruel than the practices of the day. believe that the Bible requires environmental consciousness. The three theologians quoted in that Christianity Today piece don't agree with Presbyterians, the UCC, and the other liberal Mainline Denominations on much else, but they agree on environmentalism. So they disagree with you on it not being a moral foundation.
Still, if you really enjoyed Haidt's book, I'm glad for your sake and his.




This makes me doubt your rationality.
The author's claim is that our moral judgement is not based on rationality. I repeat, he talks about our moral judgement, not about human intelligence in general.

He's a human being. And a flawed one if you look at his other work. (Google scholar). And even professional reviews of this work point out similar issues to those listed above. Look it up.
So pass, based on that. And the excuses given here. No book is perfect and methodology clearly could have been better. Let's not pretend otherwise.


And if you are Democrat you can feel good about yourself as well on the grounds of scoring highly on "care". And at no point does Haidt describe one side of this debate as being more "balanced" than the other - he describes the two sides as "different". And if the republican view is more "realistic", then it is only because it has more in common with the commonality of humanity, not because it is better or worse.
"He points the finger at liberals but seems unaware about the political dangers of conservatism. He discusses liberals with disdain."
Whether conservatism or liberalism is the more politically dangerous that the other is never addressed in the book because this is not a polemic - it is a review of scientific literature and an attempt to address the issues raised in the title on the cover of the book. And he discusses liberals with much respect, and discusses conservatives with much respect.
"With conservatives there is a kind of awe and he rarely discusses their hypocrisies. Of course he conveniently says we are all hypocrites and should not worry with it."
There is no "awe" of conservatives in the book, and it is clearly not the purpose of the book to examine the hypocrisy of either the left or the right. There are plenty of other books that *do* so.
"There lies the reason why he is so kind to the contemporary right, which is a clan of hypocrites without equal."
Well, of the world's 200-odd nations, and if we look at even just the last 1000 years, I'm pretty sure we can find some *pretty darn hypocritical* regimes that will give your assertion a good shake. Shall we try?
"Haidt believes we do not reason so much as we rationalize, which really makes one wonder how we managed to even invent the wheel or start using fire."
Absolute red herring. But we can go there if you want. Assertions like these seriously undermine your argument.
"It also explains why he never includes "truth" in his limited moral universe."
Well, you know what Pilate said about "truth". I suspect you know that verse well .....
"The Persians made it the center of their morality. I guess it would just complicate things, so like any hack, he ignores it, much the same way evolutionary psychologists often dodge the issue of suicide.
Evolutionary psychologists don't dodge suicide at all. We can do that any time. It isn't hard.
Your entire post is a classic example of exactly the post-hoc rationalisations Haidt discusses at length in his book.
Ironic

Your post is a round of counter-opinions to my opinion of the book. You don't refute anything with evidence. Yet, to be fair this was my impression back when I first read the book looking for answers. Maybe by 2017 evolutionary psychologists have taken the question suicide more seriously? Back in 2013 I had not seen much work on the subject.
If I had the time, and the book handy, I could answer each opinion, but I cannot. I will though offer you a few observations I have had as of late.
First, this is the review of mine that has gotten the most attention. It is not my best written or most nuanced. It is not my favorite. It was written when I was firmly on the left. I am not any longer, having seen the rise of anarchist views and what I can only describe as cultural Marxism. I may now have more empathy for Haidt's point of view, but not by much. At its heart, the book still suffers from bias and more the point has a limited understanding of morality. He dodges questions of truth and hypocrisy because they would undermine his argument. I have no time anymore for arguments, left or right, that ignore their internal contradictions or other view points that would question their basic premises.
I guess my review is a post-hoc rationalization, since it was written after I read the book. ;)
Yes, that was a joke. The Internet has grown deadly serious as of late, and could use a dose of humor and manners. Shall we try?

"I'm only enraging the situation by disagreeing with your obnoxious liberal elephant and will only make it more combative." - Not at all. Unlike what we see today on campus, I am all about debate. Of all the points brought up against my review, yours was probably the best, if it at times given to light ad hominem attacks (my "bloated sense of compassion"). The ad hominem really goes straight to your closing statement:
"But then I disagree with Haidt on one major point: the time for compromise is alas over... His book is too late... The Morality Wars will soon start in earnest."
On this we could not agree more. Gone are the days online or in person when debate could be heated, but without hate. Conservatives came to attack this review, and they almost always do so by using some ad hominem attacks. The war starts among the people before it ever gets formalized. Bleeding Kansas and the Boston Massacre were preludes. We are seeing other preludes in 2017.
I saw years of right-wing hypocrisy, arrogance, and idiocy (Bush years, Tea Party). The left has responded in kind with its own blend. As such, the nation cannot hold together since both sides utterly hate and distrust each other, and the government system cannot handle such discord. It could not in 1861 and it will not today. In 2013 I may have appeared to be on the left, but since then much has changed, and I find myself being cast out by those in my camp for disagreeing with tactics and goals. I am a man without a party or a tribe and soon the wolf and the lion will be at each other's throats.

"This makes me doubt your rationality.
The author's claim is that our moral judgement is not based on rationality. I repeat, he talks about our moral judgement, not about human intelligence in general."
It is a fair point you make. Let me explain where I was coming from better. I see Haidt as part of a gradual process, aided on the left and right, to debase the value of rationality. I could go on, but I think our declining faith in reason as an ideal, if not a full blown reality, is in part why you get FOX News and campus protests.
My point though could have been better made, but I won't change the review. The old dog has been around for too long now.

I know this is years down the line, but what frustrated you about his take on religion? For myself, it is blind-spot.


"I am a man without a party or a tribe"
Not so fast. Welcome to the club.