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Riku Sayuj's Reviews > Drilling Down: The Gulf Oil Debacle and Our Energy Dilemma

Drilling Down by Joseph A. Tainter
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it was amazing
bookshelves: ecology, economics, history-civilizations, history-imperial, r-r-rs, reference, favorites


The Red-Queen: On the Energy-Technology Spiral

Or

Peaked Oil: Why Peak Oil Arrived Yesterday


Preface



This book has a bit of a prosaic title, especially when coming from a historian (they usually come up with fantastically irresistible titles) - writing one too many academic papers must have gotten to the poor guy. I have suggested a few alternatives above in the guise of titles for my own summary-essay.

I cannot believe there is not a single review on ŷ for this fantastic book (9 ratings and 0 reviews on ŷ + 2 non-reviews on Amazon!). It would be a good wager that it is due to the strategically chosen title. But despite the seeming lack of interest in the book, it is a literal page turner. This is firmly among the top 3 environmental books that I have yet read.

What follows is more a summary than a review.  I have taken a few liberties in the process. For example, fracking is not covered in the book so I have tried to bring it into the analysis - integrating it into the argumentative framework to forestall criticism on that front. Being the only review on ŷ for such a good book, I am under a bit of pressure here. There is only so much a summary can do. I have to warn you that you might find that it is a very depressing book in many ways - the most essential sort.


Stein’s Law: “Trends that can’t continue, won’t.”�


The Unexpected Oil Spill (Or Not)

It was 9:15 p.m. on April 20, 2010, The Deepwater Horizon oil spill (also referred to as the BP oil spill/Macondo blowout) began in the Gulf of Mexico (GOM).

In the next four months, the oil gushing from the Macondo well spread over several tens of thousands of square miles of Gulf water - An entire region was under environmental siege. Countless of birds, turtles, dolphins, and an unknown number of fish and shrimp died. Tens of thousands of people lost their livelihoods and incomes, and a whole way of life was demolished.

Tainter and Patzek uses the story of this Gulf oil spill as the background for a wide-ranging discussion of how we got here and where we are headed. They emphasize that such events point to a systemic problem, and suggest that the spill was in fact more than likely given sufficient opportunities and time. The disaster and GOM (Gulf Of Mexico) in general is taken as a microcosm to explore the inevitability of disaster in our society.


Nature: A Mean Fractal

Starting from the basics is the best way to understand the basics. As far as Oil is concerned, the first thing we need to know is how much recoverable oil is waiting for us down there (in GOM, in this case). How much risk is involved in obtaining it and what is the trade-off. In other words, do the benefits outweigh the risks, for whom, and for how long?

Finding new oil in the deep Gulf of Mexico has not been easy. Historically, “dry holes,� wells that never produced commercial hydrocarbons, have been numerous. To put the last number in perspective, 72% of all wells drilled in water depths greater than 5,000 feet were dry holes!

Why is this so?

The sizes of reservoirs are important - it turns out that over the entire range of reservoir sizes, hydrocarbon reservoirs follow a “parabolic-fractal� law that says there is an increasing proportion of the smaller reservoirs relative to the larger ones.

If this law of reservoir sizes holds true, most, if not all, of the largest oilfields have already been discovered, and the smaller ones will not add much new oil to the total regardless of how many new oilfields are discovered.


The Paradigm of The Low-Hanging PEAK

We employ the Principle of Least Effort or Low-Hanging Fruit when we look for the resources that we need. We would never have considered looking for oil in deep water before we had fully developed the easy oil available elsewhere. We follow the same principle in the development of human society and in other aspects of history.

This is a variant of plucking the lowest fruit. The second fruit to pluck is the next one up, and so forth. At some point, however, the costs start to accelerate and the benefits of complexity, the ability to solve problems, increase more slowly and the risks start to become more than acceptable. This is a normal economic event, and it is known as the point of diminishing returns.

That should be how we redefine the point of Peak Oil . There is a need to shift the definition.


2020: The Year of the Boiled Frog

Boiling a frog� is a famous metaphor for the problem we all have perceiving changes that are gradual but cumulatively significant, that may creep up and have devastating consequences. Nothing changes very much and things seem normal. Then one day the accumulation of changes causes the appearance of normality to disappear. Suddenly things have changed a great deal, the catastrophe has arrived. The world is different.

We know how to boil a frog. Complexification is how to boil a society. Complexity grows by small steps, each seemingly reasonable, each a solution to a genuine problem.  A few people always foresee the outcome, and always they are ignored.


PEAK SCIENCE?

We are often assured that innovation (in technology or production or processes) in the future will reduce our society’s dependence on energy and other resources while continuing to provide for a lifestyle equivalent or better than such as we now enjoy. Could innovation reduce the energy cost of complexity?

Institutionalized innovation as we know it today is a recent development. In every scientific and technical field, early research plucks the lowest fruit: the questions that are easiest to answer and most broadly useful. Research organization moves from isolated scientists who do all aspects of a project, to teams of scientists, technicians, and support staff who require specialized equipment, costly institutions, administrators, and accountants.

Looking at today’s unending stream of inventions and new products, most people assume that innovation is accelerating. Ever-shorter product cycles would lead one to believe so. In fact, relative to population, innovation is not accelerating. It is not even holding steady.

Huebner found that major innovations per billion people peaked in 1873 and have been declining ever since. Then, plotting U.S. patents granted per decade against population, he found that the peak of U.S. innovation came in 1915. It, too, has been declining since that date.


Jesus Fracking Christ - A Saviour?

Patzek’s (One of the authors) research has emphasized the use of unconventional natural gas as a fuel bridge to the possible new energy supply schemes for the U.S. Fracking is an important such new technology that is posing as a sort of savior.  But we need to understand such improvements inside the framework of he technology-complexity spiral framework - that such improvements is ultimately an increase in complexity.

Does this mean that efficiency improvements and new technologies of extraction such as Fracking are not worthwhile? Of course not. Efficiency improvements are highly valuable, but their value has a limited lifespan. Technical improvements may merely establish the groundwork for greater resource consumption in the future. This in turn requires further technical innovation, but as we have just discussed, those technical improvements will become harder and harder to achieve. And as we do achieve them, they may serve us for shorter and shorter periods. We have a tendency to assume that technical innovations such as Fracking will solve our energy problems. This is unlikely.


It is the Thermodynamics, Stupid!

The Second Law of Thermodynamics defines what tends to or can happen in any energy system (the entropy of an isolated system never decreases). Considerable energy flows are required to maintain complex structures that are far from equilibrium, including living organisms and societies. We must breathe, drink, and eat for energy to flow continuously through our living bodies and maintain their highly complex, organized structures. Unfortunately, this tends to create a mess in the environment that surrounds us.

The same principle applies to the production of oil. The energy it would take to restore the environment damaged by the oil production processes such as Fracking (or inevitable disasters such as the BP spill) exceeds by several-fold the amount of combustion heat we get from burning the oil in our cars. In both examples, we cannot break even no matter how hard we try!


The Boiled Frogs: A Quick History of Civilizations

Although we like to think of ourselves as unique, in fact our societies today are subject to many of the same forces and problems that past societies experienced, including problems of complexity and energy. In some past societies, the growth of complexity ultimately proved disastrous, and all past societies found it a challenge. It might seem quaint to talk of ancient societies declining but it is infect quite easy to see the striking parallels. It takes being a Historian though.

(Much of the insight in this section draws upon the book �The Collapse of Complex Societies� which the reviewer has not read. Hence, it is not covered in detail in this summary.)


The Roman Cauldron

There was not much ancient societies could do to store extra solar energy except to turn it into something durable. This they did by turning surplus solar energy into precious metals, works of art, and people and into monetary units. When the Romans conquered a new people, they would seize this stored solar energy by carrying off the same precious metals and works of art, as well as people who would be enslaved.

One of the problems of being an empire is that eventually you run out of profitable conquests. Expand far enough and you will encounter people who are too poor to be worth conquering (the germanic tribes), or who are powerful enough that they are too costly to conquer (The Persians). Diminishing returns set in.


ROME: Hit that Decline Button - Sloowwly

The strategy of the Roman Empire, in confronting a serious crisis, was largely predictable -  They responded as people commonly do: they increased complexity to solve their problems, and subsequently went looking for the energy to pay for it.

This way of dealing with increasing complexity can be called The Roman Model. The society, in this model, increases in complexity to solve urgent problems, becoming at the same time increasingly costly. In time there are diminishing returns to problem solving, but the problems of course do not go away.


Byzantium - The Dark Age Solution

Third and fourth century Byzantine emperors had managed a similar crisis in a similar fashion by increasing the complexity of administration. This eventually led to a radical devolution of the civilization. The period is sometimes called the Byzantine Dark Age. This eventually led to a re-flowering of the empire.

This response is the Byzantine Model: recovery through simplification. It is a solution that is often recommended for modern society as a way to inflict less damage on the earth and the climate, and to live within a lower energy budget. In this sense, Byzantium may be a model or prototype for our own future, in broad parameters but not in specific details. There is both good news and bad news in this. The good news is that the Byzantines have shown us that a society can survive by simplifying. The bad news is that they accomplished it only when their backs were to the wall. They did not simplify voluntarily.


Europe: The Subsidized Continent

As discussed earlier, there is an overwhelming reason why today’s prosperous Europe emerged from so many centuries of misery - That they got lucky: they stumbled upon great, almost free subsidies.

Over the seas they found new lands that could be conquered, and their resources turned to European advantage. We are all familiar with the stories of untold riches that Europeans took from the New World.

This process is the European Model: of increasing complexity. Problem solving produces ever-increasing complexity and consumption of resources, regardless of the long-term cost. High complexity in a way of life can be sustained if one can find a subsidy to pay the costs.

This is what fossil fuels have done for us: they have provided a subsidy that allows us to support levels of complexity that otherwise we could not afford. In effect, we pay the cost of our lifestyle with an endowment from a wealthy ancestor.

This is fine, as long as the subsidy continues undiminished and as long as we do not mind damages such as the Gulf oil spill.

A Subsidized Planet: Living on Borrowed time - Literally

More recently, all societies of today, led by Europe, made the transition to financing themselves through fossil fuels, supplemented to varying degrees by nuclear power and a few other sources. This continues the European tradition of financing complexity through subsidies � energy coming from elsewhere. In this case, the “elsewhere� is the geological past.


Future Imperfect

The Deepwater Horizon is one of the latest manifestations of the evolutionary process of complexification. Problems such as the depletion of easy deposits and environmental concerns have been met by complexification: the development of technology that is increasingly capable, yet costly and risky (such as Parallel Drilling, Fracking, Arctic exploration etc). The cost comes not only in the money needed to design, purchase, and run such a rig, but also in the money to repair the environmental damage caused by the Deepwater Horizon spill. Yet despite these costs, we will continue to operate such rigs until they reach the point of economic infeasibility or, more important, the point where the energy returned on energy invested, and the resulting energy and financial balance sheets, make further exploration pointless.

Can anything be done about the energy–complexity spiral without diminishing our material quality of life? Two potential solutions commonly suggested are: Conservation and Innovation. But does either conservation or innovation provide a way out of the energy–complexity spiral? In this discussion, we have found that there might not be much hope.


Renewable? Schenewable. 

It is fashionable to think that we will be able to produce renewable energy with gentler technologies, with simpler machines that produce less damage to the earth, the atmosphere, and people. We all hope so, but we must approach such technologies with a dose of realism and a long-term perspective.

To the contrary, as problems great and small inevitably arise, addressing these problems requires complexity and resource consumption to increase. The usual approach to solving problems goes in the opposite direction. The Energy consumption of societies can only be on an upward trajectory - indefinitely (till supply chokes and dies).

To believe that we can voluntarily survive over the long term on less energy per capita is to assume that the future will present no problems (or fewer!). This would clearly be a foolish assumption, and this reality places one of the favorite concepts of modern economists and technologists, sustainable development, in grave doubt.

So, it is not clear whether renewable energy can produce even a fraction of the power per person that we enjoy now, let alone more energy to solve the problems that we will inevitably confront. Renewable energy will go through the same evolutionary course as fossil fuels. The marginal return to energy production will decline, just as it has with fossil fuels.

In this context, might be fun.


Back to the Hot Oil Bath of GOM

Cheap abundant energy, chiefly from oil, has come to be regarded as a birthright, and we all expect someone to drill and deliver that oil to support our energy-exuberant lifestyles. The tragedy aboard the Deepwater Horizon may be a rare event, like a Black Swan, but it does force us to reconsider the potential price for the complex and risky technological solutions that will continue to be required to bring the remaining oil to market.

The processes building up to an energy crisis have been growing in the background for decades, out of sight of most consumers. Then a tipping point is reached - a catastrophe, and suddenly the world has changed. Similarly, the complexity and riskiness of drilling in open water have been growing for decades, but growing in the background, away from most peoples� sights.

So the Gulf spill appeared as a Black Swan when in fact it was a frog finally boiled to death.


All Excess Baggage Aboard: How to Jettison the Energy Dilemma

So, what now? We seem to have run out of options. At least, the easy ones.

We are not the first people to face an energy dilemma. We saw three examples of societies that faced problems of energy and complexity. Each found different solutions (?) to their problems, and from this experiment we can foresee possible options for ourselves.

To be sure, we will try to continue the European model of energy subsidies for as long as we can. Humanity will not forgo such rich, steep gradients. Even the threat of climate change will not deflect humanity from searching for oil in ever-more-inaccessible places, nor from burning through our mountains of sulfurous coal. Too many people find the short-term wealth and well-being irresistible.

For how long, though, can we follow the European model? Declining EROEI and the Laws of Physics suggests that the answer is: Not forever.

We cannot cannot continue on false optimism and expect to preserve our lifestyle. Do we then need to identify things we want to preserve of our culture and channel energy to those items? Should we jettison as much as possible and try to stay afloat? Is that the only way to avoid a devolution into another in the sequence of Dark-ages that civilizations have made a habit of falling into?

These are tough questions.


Wake Up and Smell the Boiling Oil

Our societies cannot postpone this public discussion about future of energy and the tough questions. The era of plentiful petroleum will someday end. We don’t know when this will happen, nor does anyone else. Surely it will happen sooner than we want.

We cant fool ourselves any more - we are running on fumes and dooming our grandchildren (or even ourselves - who can truly say?) to a pre-technological society. As the Red Queen said to Alice in Through the Looking Glass, �Here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.� Paying more and more to maintain the status quo is the very essence of diminishing returns to problem solving.

But it is, however, the direction in which we are headed. Someday, the physics of net energy will curtail our use of petroleum. A trend that cannot continue, won’t.


Suggested Reading:

See Comments section.
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Reading Progress

November 11, 2013 – Started Reading
November 11, 2013 – Shelved
November 11, 2013 –
page 48
19.12% "A quick Google search on January 14, 2011, yielded the following results: “global warming,� 23 million hits; “climate change,� 34 million hits; “Paris Hilton,� 37 million hits; and “iPod,� 262 million hits."
November 11, 2013 –
page 48
19.12% "Here is how to boil a frog. Place the frog in a pan of tepid water. Raise the temperature so gradually that the frog does not realize it is being cooked. It may even fall into a stupor, as a person might in a hot bath. Eventually it will die. According to experiments done in the nineteenth century, you can indeed boil a frog this way. Biologists today claim that you can’t. Either way, please don’t try it."
November 11, 2013 –
page 117
46.61% "Thanks to various films, our image of the Roman Empire is that it was immensely wealthy and powerful. In fact it was more like a third-world economy of today. Only a few people were wealthy and powerful, and only some major cities were opulent. Everyone else lived a hand-to-mouth existence, and many people were in danger of hunger."
November 11, 2013 –
page 121
48.21% "Diocletian introduced a silver-covered, copper coin, called follis. It started out weighing 10 grams, but quickly began to shrink in size. Roman emperors were often brilliant politicians and generals, but they were naïve economists. They did not understand that the amount of money in circulation affected prices. The continual debasements were inflationary, and the figures that have survived read like 1920s Germany."
November 11, 2013 –
page 192
76.49% "If fish were scientists, suggests our colleague T. F. H. Allen, the last thing they would discover would be water."
November 12, 2013 – Finished Reading
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: economics
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: ecology
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: history-civilizations
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: history-imperial
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: r-r-rs
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: reference
December 22, 2013 – Shelved as: favorites

Comments Showing 1-42 of 42 (42 new)

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message 2: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Outstanding review/summary (R/S), Riku. The low-hanging fruit has indeed been picked. The twentieth century was built on cheap oil, with an EROEI of around 100:1 in the early decades of the century when oil in vast quantities was being discovered and produced in the Middle East. More recently estimates of EROEI for oil are well below 20:1 and dropping steadily.

The R/S makes important points about the dangers of assuming that technological progress and innovation will restore the old ratios, or even keep current ratios from further decline.

Of course it will be possible to continue producing fossil fuel for quite some time, much of it from more expensive, more polluting, and more risky sources. The longer that is done, however, the more massive will be the climate change debt that will need to be paid. We now know that if the fossil fuel companies of the world, in line with their business plans, are allowed to produce, and sell for consumption, all the coal, oil and gas in their proven reserves, the world will face temperature rises of significantly over 2 degrees C (and likely 6 degrees C or more) in the coming decades.


message 3: by Riku (last edited Nov 13, 2013 12:26AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "Outstanding review/summary (R/S), Riku. The low-hanging fruit has indeed been picked. The twentieth century was built on cheap oil, with an EROEI of around 100:1 in the early decades of the century..."

Thank you for the insightful comment, Ted. The EROEI seems to be hitting even scarier ratios as per some searches I have been doing!

This book connects so many lines and integrates with history so well - it should really be required reading. It is very comprehensive as an intellectual edifice - my review hardly skims the surface of the breadth of ideas it covers.

I have taken the liberty to send recommendations to most people on goodreads whom I know to be interested in sustainability, etc.

Do read the book Ted (and recommend!). I would love to know how much you concur. You might also start with the more attractive 'Collapse of Complex Societies", but I have glanced through that one and this book is actually an improvement on its thesis - by incorporating technology and by tying it to the evocative example of the oil spill.

I wrote such a long review and sent out invites so that I can get some visibility for the book. But I am afraid the review might be too unwieldily and lengthy for most. In fact I have only the faintest hope of it being read and that too only because it is on a platform like goodreads.

I am putting up a shorter summary of implications as a review to another edition or some other unread by the same author. I am not sure if you took a look at the full length review I put on my blog (goodreads allows on 20000 characters...). It is even more elaborate (if you like that sort of stuff!).

Also, am trying to get in touch with the authors, let us see how that goes :)


message 4: by Trevor (new)

Trevor Well, I for one will be putting some of my friends onto this review. No idea when I'll have time to read the actual book, but you couldn't have made it seem more worthwhile. Great review.


message 5: by Riku (last edited Nov 13, 2013 04:08AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Adding this 'status update' again in the comments section since most of my sub-headings above derive from this analogy:

"Here is how to boil a frog. Place the frog in a pan of tepid water. Raise the temperature so gradually that the frog does not realize it is being cooked. It may even fall into a stupor, as a person might in a hot bath. Eventually it will die. According to experiments done in the nineteenth century, you can indeed boil a frog this way. Biologists today claim that you can’t. Either way, please don’t try it."


message 6: by Riku (last edited Nov 13, 2013 04:06AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Trevor wrote: "Well, I for one will be putting some of my friends onto this review. No idea when I'll have time to read the actual book, but you couldn't have made it seem more worthwhile. Great review."

Thanks Trevor! Trust me, it is a very fast read - I ran through it in one night flat (and that is with all the note taking and damn-you-alls and hair-pulling that attends the reading of a truly thought-provoking book).


message 7: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "Outstanding review/summary (R/S), Riku. The low-hanging fruit has indeed been picked. The twentieth century was built on cheap oil, with an EROEI of around 100:1 in the early decades of..."

Yes, I did look at the longer review, but didn't get all the way through it. And the shorter one (this one) is now bookmarked. I've put both this book and Collapse of Complex Societies on my to-read list.

You must be a faster reader than me, I can never get through even slim books in one evening. Maybe two. :)


Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "I've put both this book and Collapse of Complex Societies on my to-read list."

I have just started it. Have a feeling I might be hounding you to try that one too soon enough.

I used to be Flash, but now I practice Slow Reading :)


message 9: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "I've put both this book and Collapse of Complex Societies on my to-read list."

I have just started it. Have a feeling I might be hounding you to try that one too soon enough.

I used t..."


I've always been a slow reader, since from the time I started reading as a youngster (and still today, to a lesser extent) I pronounce the words in my mind as I read them. At least that's what it seems to me I do. I believe it is a reading trait that is recognized as applying to (or maybe "afflicting" would be a better word?) some readers.


message 10: by Riku (last edited Nov 13, 2013 09:53AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "I've put both this book and Collapse of Complex Societies on my to-read list."

I have just started it. Have a feeling I might be hounding you to try that one too soon enou..."


The Slow Reading I referred to is more about actively engaged reading vs superficial reading (or even skimming) - much of the speed-reading schools, articles and scams teach nothing but skimming.

It is big in India now - with our industry of competitive exams forcing non-readers into reading for a few months in their life and they can't wait to jump at any short-cut on hand to get around the unpleasantness.

As for actual slow reading, I have to assume that the pace varies greatly with the content and you notice your pronunciation only when you slow down enough to give attention to it ;)


message 11: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "I've put both this book and Collapse of Complex Societies on my to-read list."

I have just started it. Have a feeling I might be hounding you to try that one t..."


Probably so. Like, it really gets noticeable when the text has a lot of foreign names, or even foreign language (which I often "read" in this manner even though I don't understand much, if anything, of what it is saying). Goofy, huh?


message 12: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "I've put both this book and Collapse of Complex Societies on my to-read list."

I have just started it. Have a feeling I might be hounding you to t..."


How does that work? I do side-by-side readings of French with English translations, but that is to learn the language (Dumas' Count, in fact - I feel I am close to learning it by rote).

You really do that for fun? Close-cousin languages, I guess? you need to know the script at the least! :)


message 13: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj (extract from State of the World 2013):

BP’s 2010 CSR report then had to address the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. In a sea of carefully worded narrative, it reported that almost all of the environmental metrics in the report improved over the previous several years.

The metrics in BP’s 2010 CSR report prove, to the point of absurdity, that CSR reporting, as currently configured is insufficient to guarantee reporting of externalities.


message 14: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "I've put both this book and Collapse of Complex Societies on my to-read list."

I have just started it. Have a feeling I might be hound..."


No, I didn't express myself clearly. I was just talking about some books (in English) that actually have a few lines here and there in French, say, without offering any translation. But instead of just skipping those lines (since I don't know what they say), I will sometimes "read" them to myself, comprehending maybe a little bit because of words that have a glimmer of meaning for me. I'm sure many would be astounded that I would do such a thing?


message 15: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Riku wrote: "(extract from State of the World 2013):

BP’s 2010 CSR report then had to address the Deepwater Horizon oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. In a sea of carefully worded narrative, it reported that alm..."


Right! By the way, I have this book now, though haven't started reading it. I bought it from Amazon a few days ago for a rather unbelievable price. For a new paperback (listed as a $20 book I think) their price was $2.49. I thought maybe they had made a mistake somewhere, but that is what I got charged.


message 16: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "Right! By the way, I have this book now, though haven't started reading it. I bought it from Amazon a few days ago for a rather unbelievable price. For a new paperback (listed as a $20 book I think) their price was $2.49. I thought maybe they had made a mistake somewhere, but that is what I got charged. "

That is great news, Ted! I am so glad I got you to buy this one. (I even sweetened a deal with Amazon in advance in case you were to drop by)

Just to warn you, the first chapter might sound a bit dry but once they get into the swing of things, the book is a delight until you get to the technical chapters (2 of them) which you can, in fact, safely skip.


message 17: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "Ted wrote: "I will sometimes "read" them to myself, comprehending maybe a little bit because of words that have a glimmer of meaning for me. I'm sure many would be astounded that I would do such a thing?""

I usually turn to google but I get what you mean - sometimes it is fun to just guess at the meaning.


message 18: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted That goes for music also, I like listening to music sung in languages I can't understand; that is, if the music itself is something I like; I don't miss the lyrics at all.


message 19: by Sandeepan (new) - added it

Sandeepan Mondal Quite a comprehensive review, man! Good going...and will definitely try to get my hands on this book!


message 20: by Kunal (new)

Kunal Thanks for the reco man, I will try to get my hands on this. I am doing a Policy Masters and Energy is the area I wanna read as much as possible


message 21: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Kunal wrote: "Thanks for the reco man, I will try to get my hands on this. I am doing a Policy Masters and Energy is the area I wanna read as much as possible"

Must read then. Amazon is selling it quite cheap (refer Ted's comment above) apparently.


message 22: by Riku (last edited Dec 07, 2013 06:33AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Sandeepan wrote: "Quite a comprehensive review, man! Good going...and will definitely try to get my hands on this book!"

As I said, being an only reviewer I had to write something good enough to at least catch some attention :)


message 23: by Jason (new) - added it

Jason Koivu Jesus man, that is one hell of a review! You almost rewrote the book! Nice work, sir.


message 24: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Jason wrote: "Jesus man, that is one hell of a review! You almost rewrote the book! Nice work, sir."

Hardly. :) It is quite a dense work. I tried to give a flavor of the main ideas.

Thanks, and I hope you pick it up some time!


message 25: by Steve (new)

Steve Nice bit of drilling down yourself, Riku. If there's to be only one GR review of this book, it was fortunate for the author that you were the one to write it. Of course it will be interesting to see how the economics of this play out as scarce resources are allotted and environmental costs are incurred.


message 26: by Riku (last edited Jan 28, 2014 05:10PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Steve wrote: "Nice bit of drilling down yourself, Riku. If there's to be only one GR review of this book, it was fortunate for the author that you were the one to write it. Of course it will be interesting to ..."

I do hope it won't be the only one. It is such a highly readable work and so useful in terms of breadth and clarity that I am NOT going to stop canvassing it. I would rate it above The Collapse of Complex Societies, which is a very dry, self-referential, scholarly work; while this is the work which makes all the required connections to our society and the real implications of Tainter's research.

'Interesting to see'... how mild a word you chose there, Steve! :)


message 27: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj ALERT!

THIS is no longer the only review and has gotten much needed affirmation:

/review/show...


message 28: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted I have to admit that I am very skeptical that this book truly knows what it's talking about. If the book if 50% concerned with off-shore drilling and the pros and cons, dangers, whatever, that's fine. But then to think that a book with that very narrow focus is going to be one of the best books, somehow, on the climate crisis just doesn't strike me as reasonable, from the point of view of someone (me) who hasn't read it.

I'm afraid that younger readers than I are too liable to be grasping at straws on this issue. Prove me wrong, please.


message 29: by Riku (last edited Jan 28, 2014 07:35PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "I have to admit that I am very skeptical that this book truly knows what it's talking about. If the book if 50% concerned with off-shore drilling and the pros and cons, dangers, whatever, that's fi..."

I get your concern, Ted. But, it does not have that very narrow focus. It (the oil spill) is just a launching point for the discussion. It does come back to touch on it now and then to illustrate the 'energy dilemma' - also as Sean's review shows, it is written by two experts on their respective fields and oscillates between the two viewpoints to give a good holistic picture.

It is one of the best books I have read on the environment, society and the energy crisis. Of course, it can't be the best on climate change - it does not even directly address it.

As far as the authors are concerned, the Energy Crisis is the prime problem - climate change, env degradation, etc are symptoms of the energy crisis. And that is a quite a reasonable argument. That is why I felt this was a must read - it tackles the core issue and lets the readers investigate further.


message 30: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "I have to admit that I am very skeptical that this book truly knows what it's talking about. If the book if 50% concerned with off-shore drilling and the pros and cons, dangers, whatever, that's fi..."

Also, I am sorry if my review gave the impression that the book is focussed on this issue alone (though I can't see how)...

Plus, I am not sure I get what is meant by 'grasping at straws' on the issue. As in grasping at straws of hope? If so, not much hope is presented in this book, the most optimistic option given by surveying the whole of civilized history is the Byzantine solution - Dark Ages. Not great straws to be grasping at, whether by the young or old. :)

I try to be as skeptical as I can when reading technical/ scientific/professional books, and I tried to maintain that in this too. In case my incredulity got the better of me somewhere, I would be really grateful if you could set me straight once you read the book, Ted. Have you got your copy delivered yet?


message 31: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "I have to admit that I am very skeptical that this book truly knows what it's talking about. If the book if 50% concerned with off-shore drilling and the pros and cons, dangers, whateve..."

I said 50%, not 100%. That's the impression which was given by the other review you referenced.

The main problem with my comment is that I have not finished reading your review, Riku, and the comment was more a reaction to the other review. Entirely my fault, I have a terrible hangup about reading very long reviews - I generally just can't convince myself that it merits the time required.

This is a problem that you probably find hard to sympathize with, since you read so swiftly that long reviews, to say nothing of long books, are not an issue at all from your point of view.

Please excuse - I will make no more comments on this thread until I am able to understand exactly what the book is advocating (if it advocates anything), and that knowledge will come from a thorough reading of everything you've written here.


message 32: by Sandhya (new) - added it

Sandhya Thanks for the review Riku. It is now on my to-read list.


message 33: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Sandhya wrote: "Thanks for the review Riku. It is now on my to-read list."

Great to know that Sandhya. Hope you find time for it soon!


message 34: by Riku (last edited Feb 19, 2014 08:02PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "I have to admit that I am very skeptical that this book truly knows what it's talking about. If the book if 50% concerned with off-shore drilling and the pros and cons, dan..."

Not a problem Ted! I realized the book might not get much of an audience, which is why I put up such an exhaustive review - the idea being that if not the content of the review, at least the obvious effort and enthusiasm of the reviewer can serve as advertisement for the book's worth.


message 35: by Riku (last edited Sep 25, 2014 11:05AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj The coming era of unlimited � and free � clean energy

"Futurist Ray Kurzweil notes that solar power has been doubling every two years for the past 30 years � as costs have been dropping. He says solar energy is only six doublings � or less than 14 years � away from meeting 100 percent of today’s energy needs. Energy usage will keep increasing, so this is a moving target. But, by Kurzweil’s estimates, inexpensive renewable sources will provide more energy than the world needs in less than 20 years. Even then, we will be using only one part in 10,000 of the sunlight that falls on the Earth."




message 36: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted well ... this would require six doublings of the solar infrastructure also; as well as that nagging bit about the sun not always being present.

Kurzweil is something of a jerk in my opinion. He's the "futurist" who is as responsible as any other for the introduction of nano-items into the environment, with absolutely no idea of what the unintended consequences will be. He's also a fellow who firmly believes that technology will solve all our problems, with little or no effort ... all it takes is the true entrepreneurial spirit. (Unless he's changed his tune recently.)


message 37: by Riku (last edited Sep 26, 2014 08:08AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "well ... this would require six doublings of the solar infrastructure also; as well as that nagging bit about the sun not always being present.

Kurzweil is something of a jerk in my opinion. He's ..."


I put this up here ironically. I am a firm “technological solutionism� skeptic. What this sort of articles are actually saying is that we can just continue our extravagant practices and everything will be solved, by an extrapolation of what has already happened (!), by technology in a magical parallel process. We would be stupid to change anything!


message 38: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "well ... this would require six doublings of the solar infrastructure also; as well as that nagging bit about the sun not always being present.

Kurzweil is something of a jerk in my op..."


Sometimes I don't recognize irony. Sorry. 8}


message 39: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj Ted wrote: "Riku wrote: "Ted wrote: "well ... this would require six doublings of the solar infrastructure also; as well as that nagging bit about the sun not always being present.

Kurzweil is something of a ..."


The word 'unlimited' is the give-away.


message 40: by Riku (new) - rated it 5 stars

Riku Sayuj An interesting addition on how all empires were about energy, from Marvin Harris:

Before the fuel revolution, plants and animals were the main source of energy for social life. Scattered about the earth on millions of farms and villages, plants and animals collected the energy of the sun and converted it into forms appropriate for human use and consumption. Other sources of energy, such as the wind and falling water, were no less dispersed. The only way for despots to cut people off from their energy supply was to deny them access to the land or the oceans. This was an extremely difficult task and very costly under most conditions of climate and terrain. Control over water, however, was more readily managed. And where water could be controlled, plants and animals could be controlled. Further, since plants and animals were the main sources of energy, control over water was control over energy. In this sense the despotisms of hydraulic society were energy despotisms—but only in a very indirect and primitive way.


message 41: by Ted (new) - added it

Ted Good update.


message 42: by Jan-Maat (new)

Jan-Maat Thank you for an entertaining review although I do think that the author was off the boil with his use of the Romans as an example since they pretty much reached the point of diminishing returns in conquest a good 400 years before the western empire collapsed, the maya, the anasazi, perhaps the ancient khymer might be more pertinent examples of peoples who used up the material foundations of their societies and then collapsed, the byzantines were forced to reinvent themselves a few times...


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